blazinginder

Actually Beemers hold their value, on average, much better then other european brands...like Mercedes

TSXACE

Technically if its a dual over head cam V6, it has 4 cams.

TSXACE

and to answer the original question, no the TL-S is not DOHC, its SOHC

Aman

Actually, the TL holds up pretty well against its RWD competitors. a while ago (2006) Car and Driver did this review of nearly all the sport sedans, including the Saab 9-3 Aero, Volvo S60R, Cadillac CTS, Audi A4, Acura TL, Infiniti G35, Lexus IS350 and NOT ONLY did the TL get the second-best 0-60 (with a time of 5.9 seconds, behind the IS350) but it also had the best skidpad grip, at 0.91g.

oh, and for those of ou who didn"t know, the TL is FWD

gauravp123

LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

Perhaps this might change your mind:
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show....php?t=1241896

Driven by professional driver Keiichi Tsuchiya, TL-S, G35, IS350 were going at Willow Springs, CA race track.

1. TL-S 6MT - 1:36:67 sec
2. IS350 - 1:38:24
3. G35 6MT - 1:38:67

These numbers are more reliable than say numbers from normal car magazines as these were tested by an actual professional race car driver, Keiichi Tsuchiya(Little bio of him: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keiichi_Tsuchiya).

This is another test at Willow Springs:
http://www.gtchannel.com/content.php?cid=6746

The time on the 2nd one is different because there are 2 Willow Springs track, one is for the international raceway, and one is called the streets of Willow Springs.

260 HP

iTrader: (3)

I've read this post on v 6 p.net some time ago.

According to this article, TL-S does show an impressive number, but 2 sec difference? I feel that something isn't right. Unfortunately I can't read Japanese, so I don't know if the 3 cars have summer tires or not, etc.

Remember that TL-S has the lowest advertised HP, torque, worst weight distribution, possibly the smallest tires, the list goes on, but it can beat IS350 and G35, hmmm.....

I'm also not saying that TL-S isn't impressive on paper. It really is. However, it's not that much fun doing so, compared to a good RWD car, such as, again, G35/G35, 3-series, and IS250/350.

Sorry, I'm not changing my mind about this. I'm just being realistic. It takes a lot more engineering to build a fun to drive high powered FWD car. TL-S is a fantastic car indeed, but RWD sport sedans are simply more fun to drive.

Here's another. I also have an 06 4-cylinder Accord that's mildly modified (18" BBS, Koni SP3, TL 20 mm swaybar, Prokit springs) and I think the Accord is MORE fun to drive than the TL is. Why? Because it doesn't understeer as much, feels lighter and more eager to turn, and easier to rotate.

260 HP

iTrader: (3)

Fyre man, I'm sure you're talking about this article:
http://www.caranddriver.com/comparis...olvo-s60r.html

The TL landed 4th out of 8. It posted great numbers, but there's more to the numbers, especially when they're so close among each other, that is the feedback and feel you receive from the car.

I used to think that the TL is THE best sports sedan for this price bracket. I used to think that BMWs are crap and break down all the time, etc. Until one day I drove my friend's E90 325i. The TL will eat it for lunch and dinner at stop light races. BUT, the car rewards you with more than just acceleration. It takes turns very eagerly, gives you plenty of feedback from the chassis, suspension, and steering, and so on. It's an experience you have to drive to believe. There's simply more to sports sedans than just numbers.

By no means this is an endorsement to buy a BMW. The above paragraph is just my opinion.

stillhere153

iTrader: (1)

wow I just noticed
c/d don't know shit, I only see 1 cam when I pop my hood so to hell with them, I can't take it when my car isn't rated # 1... lmfao

junktionfet

Whether or not you find it fun to drive, or fundamentally acceptable, the fact of the matter is that the TL-S never seems to be totally outclassed by its competition. In some cases is seems to exceed its competition (the track times listed above, etc).

Numbers are only part of the story for me. I am not a professionally trained driver by any stretch, but I'd like to think I'm decent and I have participated in a small number of track events before (in a car and on a bike). I think the TL-S manages quite well and the chassis lets you get away with a lot. The front end does feel busy at low speed and wide throttle, but it's easy enough to just deal with it. I never find that it detracts from the safety of the car's handling. I know what's going on up there and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to compensate for it. You just learn to drive differently at lower speeds, and in doing so you learn to squeeze a lot of potential out of FWD.

If you like doing donuts or wasting time going totally sideways through a curve, then perhaps the TL-S isn't for you. Those activities are certainly fun, but not exactly practical.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

Yea, in the fun to drive category, if you mean something such as drifting, then for sure the TL-S isn't the car for you. But what I am trying to prove is that, in terms of actual lap times, it's not shabby at all. It's even surpassed its RWD competitors.

The tires issue have been discussed on many forums, such as ClubIS. If you go to Acura official website, it will list the optional summer tires as Bridgestone RE030. This is also listed in the video in that link I've posted. The tires fitted on the G35 and IS350 are both Bridgestone RE050, a quick check at tirerack.com shows that RE050 is a class above RE030, as in providing more performance. In other words, the TL-S actually has inferior tires.

Also if you look at the C&D article again, you will note that the skidpad number on the TL-S is quite high, at 0.93G. However, IMO, skidpad numbers don't mean as much as lap times, especially lap times obtained by a real professional race car driver.

It's understandable that it's hard to believe a FWD with worse power-to-weight ratio to beat RWD cars. But Honda has always been making FWD cars with great track performance. Also, in the video, you can see how dramatic the oversteering is, perhaps you really need to be a professional driver to extract such performance, as most likely you won't drive that hard during normal driving. But then if we are comparing real performance, we might as well use the lap times by professional drivers.

Aman

yup, thats the one! kind of an old article, though.

I havent driven a BMW (or anything outside of a cavalier, for that matter) but people have differnt opinions. i think the the BMW is an ugly overpriced sedan that is pricey to fix (outside of warranty)

I think the TL is a well priced large luxurious sedan.

Maybe the day i drive one is the day i'll decaide which one I prefer. but most people dont look for driving experiences when they look for cars. you have to remember that the majority of people arent car enthusiasts. they are just regular people looking for a way to get around in comfort. The TL delivers on that front. people are looking for a big car. the TL delivers. people are looking for a car that doesnt take that mush gas. TL and 3series deliver. based on that criteria, which would you choose?

My opinion won't count for much on here, but if i had the choice between a TL and a 325i right here, right now, i'd take the TL in a second.

and then, of course, there's the above post

260 HP

iTrader: (3)

It's true that Honda has been making great FWD cars. That's why I've been owning Hondas in the last 10 years. Who can forget the Prelude Type SH, Integra Type R, etc. Honda engineers have also been great at masking the FWD characteristics and has been largely successful in 4-cylinder cars.

But when the motor gets larger and heavier to extract more power, it creates more problem because of the heavier front end plus the possibility of torque steer. Although, I think the 03 CL Type S was a great performer and stock for stock is more fun than the 6-sp TL.

I think that 270 hp (or 258 hp by the new SAE standard) has passed the Accord/TL's platform's limit. I think that's why the RL is AWD. This is to save money because it can use the same Accord platform, ability to stuff big HP motor without torque steer, and ability to mask the front heavy feel.

Fyre man, I agree that the E90 is ugly. However, on one aspect and one aspect only, fun to drive, the BMW surpasses the TL.

BMW isn't that expensive to fix outside of warranty. It's not as reliable or trouble free as Honda, Toyota, or Nissan, but it's not as bad as so many people think.

iforyou, like I said, I didn't know that all the cars had summer tires for that article. If they all did, more the better for the TL-S. It's also possible that the TL's characteristics match very well with the driver and/or the track. Case in point, I have witnessed a few times that a friend of mine with 92 supercharged Civic hatch running circles around Corvettes and Vipers on a track. It's all about how the driver can direct the power to move the car forward.

My point has always been the fun to drive quotient but not drift. Drift for me is fun to watch, that's it. For me, fun to drive means the car has to feel almost to neutral, eager to turn, nimble, has communicative steering (meaning it tells you what's going on with the front tires, something the TL does pretty well for a FWD) but clean with no torque steer, has good shifter feel (which the TL excels on).

I also have an E46 M3. I gotta tell you that M3's shifter feels ancient compared to the TL's. M3's feels very rubbery, notchy, and has very long throws. But the M3 is not a good substitute for the TL, which has gobs more room, more relaxed on the freeways, has much better driver ergonomics, and also modern looking.

All in all, I'm still a TL owner and the car does have its own merits. I still love this car. Hell, I've been having a hard time thinking that I have to sell it. However, in the fun to drive department, which the magazines often put heavy emphasis on, the TL simply isn't as good as other RWD sport sedans from Infiniti, Lexus, and especially BMW.

By the way, if you have 06 and up (mine is 05), did you know that Acura developed a software to limit torque at lower gears? I don't know how it exactly works, but it was intended to reduce torque steer. I think the throttle won't fully open even when you floor the pedal if the car is in first and second gears.

mickey3c

7th place finishing with more horsepower than before for a tl... 40K as well which puts it up against other cars. If you can afford 40K why not a few more for something faster.

They could give it more power since the acura 3.5 has the least of any japanese 3.5 engine. I thought it was funny that the buick was 8th. That just goes to show you that when acura has the first type S the other companies managed to catch up. Granted I wouldn't be caught dead in the srt8 chrysler. I would not mind playing with the evo though..

korrupted

I priced a comparable 335 b4 getting a TL-S, it cost $10K more, which comes out to about 30% more.
That's a huge difference when you are talking about high ticket items.
But then again some people have $10K to piss away

johnnysquire

I beg to differ. I owned a 1994 Integra GSR and a 1994 E36. On every comparison but one, the BMW was say more expensive to maintain. The one issue with the Integra was that the timing belt failed right after 90K.

Despite being an interference design, no harm done. It was still a $X00 repair, but no more than a full brake job on the BMW.

Oh, and the BMW also required a tranny rebuild, and several electronics parts that each were over $500. The only other $ I spent on the Integra was brake pads (I don't think I ever had to replace the rotors on the Integra in 125k), tires, oil and filters.

Aman

well you cant really compare an Integra's maintenance cost to a BMW, even if they are the same year.

Compare it to your TL, and then we have a show going

fish008

Better yet if you are going to make comparisons between cars you should compare late model TL’s to late model BMW 3 series ( I don’t think that you can compare those other electrical mess 5 and 7 series with the 3). I think that you will find both hold their value quite well and that maintenance costs will be close, if you follow the manufactures recommendations that is. Some will be quick to point out that an oil change is 3 times as much in the BMW but it should also be noted that you change it a third as often. Time is money. Again just following the manufactures maintenance recommendations it would be close. I know, I know you can do it on your own use synthetic (in that example), but for the average joe who doesn’t do that the costs would be similar (note the word use). I looked quite seriously at both cars but in the end the reliability of Hondas (not to take anything away from the 3) and all of the included goodies made me say with Honda/Acura - my third such vehicle. Don’t think I am defecting but they are both good cars and anyone who can actually be objective in their opinion can see that. That said I think that the TL looks better than the current 4 door 3 series and the interior of the TL blows that basic dash and standard equipment in the 3 out of the water. Not to mention under cutting it my thousand$$$$$. I am in a TL - enough sad.

260 HP

iTrader: (3)

I didn't say BMW is not more expensive to maintain. I said it's not as bad as so many people think.

On side note, you were plain lucky when your timing belt broke on your Integra. 9 out of 10 people would have had to buy a new motor.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

Yea, I agree, Honda certainly can't stay with FWD with they want to have more hp. At least at this time, they are still doing well though.

In that comparison, it was conducted by a very well-respected driver so I guess it's as accurate/fair as we can get. However, like you've said, it also true that one might excel in one track, but becomes very slow on another. And no kidding, properly modded civics are fast, that's why there are so many 10 seconds civics out there. In terms of fun to drive, IMO the 335i is still the king, with the G35 trailing close behind, but IS350? Probably not..it just doesn't feel sporty to me at all.

I have a 02 TL-S, so I don't have the torque limiting feature. But yea, the new TL-S does come with it (not sure if they have it for AT though). It limits the power in the first 2 gears to reduce too much tirespin and/or torque steer I believe. With today's computer technology, I don't think it's hard to have a program that does that. Ford Focus RS and Mazdaspeed3 (and some other high power FWD cars I guess) also have that feature.

T Ho

I'd take my 3500lb 3.2l FWD 6spd TL over a 3800lb AWD 3.7l 6spd TL. Why? Because my car would most certainly be faster, have better handling feel, and be more efficient.

Anyone needs confirmation on this- go drive the new CTS. 304hp DI V6, 6spd manual, feels good, but FAT- over 3900lbs. All that power, and the best it can do is a high 14sec 1/4. Throw another 150lbs on for the AWD. Ugh.

I think we might be seeing the end of the HP race. I'm glad for it, to be honest. Camry's having 300hp seems retarded. I'm ready for the focus to start shifting to weight reduction and fuel economy- hold the power steady, perhaps even drop a little. If the power/weight ratio stays the same, we won't miss any fun.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

^don't worry, weight and size reduction is the next direction the car industry is heading, take a look at the new Mazda2.

lando77

The TL-S is by far the better car. With navigation, full leather, bluetooth, HID, preformance tires, brembo brakes, and DVD 5:1 surround. The Bimmer is a 335i, try and buy a 335i, similarlly equipt for less than 40K.

Besides, here in Germany EVERYONE drives a bimmer, a dime a dozen. But only 2 TL-S in the whole country.

LAndo

korrupted

Can I borrow yours when I go to Germany, I always wanted to drive a TL-S on in Nürburgring

lando77

Uh,
maybe you should get some laps in with a fiesta or polo first. Actually, one of the first things I wanted to do was the 'ring in my GSR. I was told that it is best to learn the course in a compact automatic before bringing the high horsepower monsters (those are the ones that get wrecked).

I still have not made it out there yet, hopefully when it gets warmer I learn to drive the ring

korrupted

Good advice, always better to learn the track first.
I'm not trying to do TopSpeed all the way. Is a TL-S is a high horsepower monster?

lando77

Kinda, 286 HP is certainly nothing to sneeze at (especially when you consider that the TL-S has more HP than EVO IX GSR, WRX STi and even the original Acura NSX!). But when most folks speak of the high HP monsters, they are more likely to refer to something with > 300 HP.

Lando

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

I wonder if they underrate their cars in the States because in Japan, those cars (STi/Evo) they certainly make more than just 276hp!

fish008

No need to wonder pal, they DID underrate their cars for a long time, and not just in the States, everywhere. There was a long standing gentlemens agreement in place between all of the japanese car companies that they wouldn’t produce a car with greater than 276 BHP. I think towards the end it was a joke because everyone knew that those cars were making well more than 276 BHP but the sticker would say 276 so it was okay. That agreement fell apart a several of years ago (in 2001, 02 or 03) ...can't remember right now which car it was that finally came out and said an actual number, but I am thinking the new Z but that could be wrong. Anyways that is obviously over and every one of those car companies makes cars with greater than 276 advertised HP.