losiglow

iTrader: (1)

Thanks for reviving this thread. Reminded me that I needed to check this. I hope I'm not in trouble already though. My fluid looked terrible. It was clean on top, like someone has added some fluid, but an odd shade of red/maroon on the bottom (in the resevoir). As we know, rust is red (or brown) . Either way, I sucked out what was left in the resevoir and used nearly 2 quarts bleeding the system. Bled it til it was clear on all 6 valves (2x for the front - MT6). My only saving grace is that nothing red came out of the lines, only a darker yellowish. The brakes felt fine before but they feel a world of difference now. Now I'll just hope that there wasn't too much damage done already. It's only been 61K miles and I live in Utah which is pretty dry.

borrowman

Just curious, why do some posters indicate that the fluid is supposed to be changed every year, after the initial three years? I recall the owner's manual just stating that it should be changed every three years, period.

losiglow

iTrader: (1)

I'm not sure where that came from. Maybe it's just prudence considering that it's relatively easy and cheap to bleed the system compared to the price of components. I plan on keeping an eye on the fluid, but If it looks good I probably won't touch it next year.

Turbonut

iTrader: (1)

That is correct. If after 3 years the fluid is replaced, then another 3 years it should be.

Majofo

Why don't you show us proof to back up what you say. It seems like you go against the grain of several proven recommendations without evidence to show otherwise. Proof has been shown here and on the 2G side why brake fluid should be changed every year. It takes all of 20 minutes and a quart of fluid to change it, better safe than sorry.

borrowman

I am not sure how to post a page from the Owner's Manual, but on page 284 of my 2008 TL OM, in the Maintenance Minder section, it states...

"Independent of the maintenance messages in the multi-information display, replace the brake fluid every 3 years."

borrowman

Figured it out...

Majofo

nfnsquared

Sorry sir, you should have read your owner's manual/service manual before posting. Turbonut has actually read his owner's manual, pg 211 (in addition to what has been posted previously):



Now, may I offer you some

nfnsquared

I don't post this to pick on anyone in particular, but in an online forum it comes from people who don't know what they're talking about posting stuff like this:

...and from other people blindly accepting unsubstantiated statements they read online as gospel....

Majofo

There has been testimony from several respected members that the moisture that's absorbed into the brake fluid is substantial enough to warrant changing it every year. Heel Toe's Master Res is not unusual. The first change I did on the TL had the same build up and I live in TX.

The Res fluid looked okay but once I started flushing it from the lines it was real bad. I changed my fluid to Castrol GT LMA hoping it would help but after 1.5 years it was definitely due for a change again, although it did look better than the honda bf that was flushed from my X. Running bf with a relatively high moisture load will not only compromise your braking efficiency it can also compromise your braking system.

Honda also has the longest change interval. I believe Lexus also recommends 3 years or 30k miles which for any normal driver is in the 2 yr range. BMW promoted changes every year but stretched it to 2. It seems to me that stretching the service is convenient not prudent.

I hate cars

The owner's manual is only a rough guide. You would know this if you got out there and did some work once in a while.

Being able to post scans from an owner's manual does not mean you know the first thing about cars. You contribute nothing but cut and pastes to this site yet you constantly knock the real world experience and testing by various members. The fact that you can't comprehend what most of us are doing shows just how poor your automotive knowledge is.

What do you believe, an owner's manual that says to replace every 3 years or brake fluid that has 5% water and crud in it after 1 year.

What do you believe, the manual that says to go 100,000 miles on the factory ATF fill and to use only Z1 or the black worn out fluid that's causing failures and shudder at 50,000 miles that's easily cured by shorter intervals with a different fluid.

What do you believe, the manual that says to use only Honda MTF or all of the cured 3rd gear issues with the GM Synchromesh fluid?

This is the real world. Fuck your manuals.

I could go on for days.

Don't choke on that humble pie.

I hate cars

I especially love the part in the manual where it says to only use Honda heavy duty brake fluid. Any other fluid can cause corrosion and decrease the life of the system. Have the system flushed and refilled with Honda fluid asap.

If you believe that load of crap I feel bad for you. Something tells me you do.

I hate cars

I'm about to try their SRF fluid. It's just so expensive. I'm thinking with this fluid I could *safely* go 3 years. Water barely affects it's boiling point or so they say. I think this could be run 3 years unlike the factory stuff that would have a boiling point slightly above ambient after 3 years lol.

Majofo

I think I subscribed to your SRF thread but I haven't checked back. I was hoping the GT LMA would do well. I definitely think it was better than the OEM fluid.

I hate cars

I haven't updated it in a long time. Just waiting on the right time to do the fluid but every time I get the itch it's foggy or rainy and it seems like every maintenance item is hitting all at once so engine oil takes priority over 6 month old brake fluid. How's that for a run-on sentence lol.

I've never looked into the OEM fluid but it's safe to say it's some re-branded, probably cheap store bought fluid.

nfnsquared

Wow, guess I touched a nerve, eh?

All I did was;

1. Answer Majofo's question/accusation to Turbonut with the facts Majofo was asking for. Well, he got it.

2. Pointed out the two incorrect posts in this thread (by the same individual who doesn't even own a 3G) that claim "the book" says 1 year, which it most certainly doesn't.

Turbonut

iTrader: (1)

I guess enough evidence has been posted in my defense, so maybe I go against the majority because I am correct in my postings. I don't usually post anything that I can't back up, just because of people like you needing to see it in writing. Maybe when you grow as old as I and experience the many, many years of automotive work, racing, restoration and sales, you one day may make believers out of some people.

Just some food for thought. If the intial drain and refill lasted 3 years, why in the world would one need to do it again in 1 year? Makes no sense to me and looks like Honda agrees.

Time to go to dinner with the daughter.

Majofo

I'm no expert but I believe what I see with my own two eyes and the advice from trusted members who have shared their experience here. Age has nothing to do with it, Tom's older than you and is a true gearhead as well. Obviously we all know the service recommendations from the owner's manual. The argument is, is 3 years prudent? What's the moisture load in the bf after 3 years? I haven't tested it but I'm actually due for another change in the TL (a little over a year). I'd be willing to buy a kit to show the percentage. That's a lot more than I'd seen you offer an argument. I'll eat the humble pie if I'm wrong.

Secondly, this bickering is ridiculous. Lets stop the antagonizing.. I suggest we turn this discussion productive and useful.

I hate cars

You're right, the posts incorrectly stated what the owner's manual said, no argument here.

My response was based around trying to discredit people that have gone out and collected data and seen with their own eyes what the fluid looks like after 3 years. I would apologize for coming on so strong but we both know whats going on here.

Most people can go 3+ years and never know the difference because they will never hit the lowered boiling point of the fluid. But take it down a mountain road or do slightly spirited driving especially in a 5at that will put more heat into the fluid all else being equal and your much closer to hitting that boiling point and losing the brakes with old brake fluid.

Even with my Rotora 13" brakes I can make the outside of the calipers hit 250 degrees no problem and that's just spirited driving on the street. Look at the typical wet boiling point of an average DOT 3 (OEM) fluid and you will see that the margin is pretty thin when everything is new much less 3 years later.

Most factory recommendations are based around the appearance of the car requiring little maintenance, not what's best for the car.

nfnsquared

I agree, I'm right.

Huh? Where was my attempt to discredit?

Majofo

this thread is going to shit fast. props for trying IHC.

ibtehban

I hate cars

In your little world anything you can't find on google or read about in a manual is unsubstantiated. You put a vague owner's manual over what people can see with their eyes. If I can see it, it's substantiated.

Wise choice to bow out of the technical part of the discussion. It would take a lot of Google researching to come back with a reply.

nfnsquared

Uh OK. Let's not take things out of context. My statement was in direct reference to people believing the two incorrect posts about what was in the manual, nothing else. A 2G owner comes into a 3G forum and makes incorrect statements and a few folks were already starting to bite off on this incorrect information....

Turbo merely replied to a member who said he thought the manual said 3 years. Turbo's reply simply confirmed that fact without advocating for/against or challenging anyone and Majofo blew up in his face.

The manual says every 3 years. That's what I've chosen to follow for the last 7 years. I've owned by TL since new (Nov 2003). I've changed my BF twice, once in Nov 2006 (3 years in Bossier City, La, no issues) and once again in Nov 2009 (3 years in North Dakota, no issues).

Never any crud in the reservoir, never any brake/ABS problems, never any discolored fluid (maybe slightly darker, but that's expected) at the 3 year change. And my next change will be in Nov 2012.

Turbonut

iTrader: (1)

I'd be more concerned with the 4 piston caliper rather than the single, but as you guys seem to know everything from seeing the fluid, I'm certain you all know why this might be, or maybe we'll be in for another enlightening experience.

What a group!

Thanks nfnsquared for the help, but it seems as though it's a no win situation with some, as although they have no documentation, once again it's only from their viewpoint and they continue to yell the loudest, right or wrong!

Steven Bell

iTrader: (2)

Really guys......really?????

Once again, this has gotten personal, with jabs and high elbows. And once again, we're off topic.

This is getting really old........really fast. Obviously previous bans have not done much. A smart person learns from previous mistakes and does their best to not repeat those mistakes again in the future.

So, warnings to all-I'm leaving this thread open.......ON PURPOSE, for obvious reasons-if you catch my drift.

Majofo

I hate cars

I think this post is somewhat on topic since it has to do with fluid boiling points and heat transfer into the fluid.

So what we've got is a Single large piston on only one side with an 11.2" rotor vs 4 smaller pistons with the same overall area as the larger single piston and a 13" crossdrilled rotor and larger pads.

I doubt anyone would argue that a 13" rotor is going to run cooler than an 11.2" rotor all else being equal. I also don't think anyone is going to argue that a larger pad is going to run cooler and last longer than a smaller pad all else being equal.

So I have to guess the basis of your argument is that the 4 small pistons on either side of the caliper are going to transfer more heat into the fluid, correct?

If I'm wrong, I will admit it and I will apologize and I'll quickly upgrade from a 4 piston caliper to a single piston caliper.

I think we both can agree that stopping heat from entering the fluid is just as important as the boiling point of the fluid.

Turbonut

iTrader: (1)

Certainly not looking for any apology, but it's not the heat!
Just think what occurs in normal everyday, year in and year out use that applies to 99% of us.

I hate cars

I give up.

Turbonut

iTrader: (1)

Me too!
As the 4 piston caliper is vertical, moisture accumulates in the lower portion and as the lower pistons are quite close to the bottom of the caliper reservoir so to speak, hence the lower pistons are more prone to contamination. This is not to say a single piston caliper is not prone to problems, just saying the 4 piston equipped vehicles should be wary of moisture.

Hope you're enjoying the weather out there, just got finished with the snow blower.

skh

So I'm new to this forum and I figured that I would give my Changing your brake fluid is not that hard/expensive and it is not doing any harm to your system so why not change it every year??? Also no matter how much fluid you flush through your system there is always going to some residue left over, so changing it every year does not sound like a bad idea...

But anyways to get back on topic I was wondering if anyone has use an inline check valve and tube to do a one person brake job? It is the similar concept as the speedbleeders mentioned before (post #69), but you do not need to spend the extra money for check valve at every caliper... (I'm not too opposed to spending the money for the check valve at every caliper I'm just afraid that after time all the dirt and grime may clog the check valves since they are "permanently" installed on the vehicle)

On a side note since I just bought the car I would like to change all the fluids as I don't know if the previous owner replaced all the fluids, it may not even be time for somethings (it's an 04 MT with 41000 miles), but my concern is how can I let the cars computer know that I just serviced everything and or can I tell if the car ever recommended the previous owner to change any of the fluids? If someone could point me in the right direction that would be great!

Majofo

I like this new guy! no homo. I've never done it but it sounds possible. Diligence is key either way you swing it. In regards to the maintenance reminder, just keep a log / mental note when you serviced each item and clear the code when it pops up. You can reset / clear the system by pressing the select / reset button for 10-20 seconds with the ignition key turned on, engine off. Then go through the prompt and hold the select / reset button for another 10-20 seconds. This will work for oil and tire rotation, maybe a couple other items. I think service items that are mileage based will still pop up but just remember when you serviced them as I mentioned before and clear it out using the same procedure.

skh

Thanks, I was afraid of that answer... I always keep a extensive record of everything I do to the car... even all my gas fill-ups.

Majofo

Same here.. I think every compartment of the TL is filled with gas receipts that I need to book. It's too late to categorize.

Inaccurate

I have purchased some of these check valves (3/16") (click here).

I have the clear vinyl tubing to connect them. I will be trying it in a week or two weeks.

My concern is possibly drawing air into the caliper. If you noticed, those speedbleeders have a treading compound on the threads to prevent air from being drawn into the caliper. As the brake pedal is release, the master cylinder piston probably creates a suction that could suck air thru the bleeder threads.

But, I am still going to try it. If anything, I will use the check valve to perform the bulk of the flush. Then, I will have my wife to help me to do a conventional two-person bleeding process for a few cycles to get rid of any air that might had been drawn in from the check valve method.

nfnsquared

If tubing is connected to the bleed nipple (or speed bleeder nipple), I've always found that fluid will remain in the first 3-5" of the tubing (starting at the nipple) and this precludes any chance of air being drawn into the system. (I don't worry about having the other end of the tube submerged)....

Those speed bleeders are nice and all, but for an MT it would cost over $45 (6 x $7 plus shipping). I could buy a pressure bleed system for less than that (about $30 with tax)....

MrHeeltoe

iTrader: (1)

nfnsquared...if you have the other end of the hose submerged below the fluid level in your collection reservoir, fluid stays in the entire line and does not back into the caliper. Check valves, bleeding tools, etc are all a complete waste and give a false sense of security (in other words, bleed wrong with with a best tool won't make the job a good one)

I hate cars

That's been my experience exactly. My $7 bleeder does just as good of a job as the expensive ones.

nfnsquared

I've never used anything other than $0.80 of 1/4" tubing and a liter soda bottle....