BEWARE!! Acura Selling Crashed Cars...not reporting in Car Fax
01-07-2009, 01:46 PM
#1
BEWARE!! Acura Selling Crashed Cars...not reporting in Car Fax
Hello All.
This dealership Open Road Acura of East Newbrunswick, NJ has tricked me into buying a car that has unlisted heavly repaired body damage and failed to report it. The car was ordered by them, leased by them, and now they sold it to me....How am I suppose to know that the car was repaired if the one who repaired it does not report it and the car sales men is telling me its never been in an accident providing his Carfax sheet.
I bought a Certified pre-owned SSM 2005 Acura TL w\ Navi 27k miles on Jun 2008 from Open Road Acura of East Newbrunswick, NJ. Carfax showed that the car has never been in an accident and had 1 owner who leased it from this dealer ship and returned it at 27k. I saw all the service records and the so called Pre-owned certified inspection listed on carfax. So no crashes, scratches or anything are listed in the Carfax. This is why I bought my car at an actual Acura Dealership because I didn't want any used rebuilt car and wanted nothing to do with those "mom and pop" (third party) dealerships. I even bought an extended warranty which wasn't needed but I really planned to keep the car.
Yesterday my car was hit slightly on the lower rear passenger side backdoor. It was a hit and Run...this broke my heart since its only been 6 months of being in love with my TL even though I noticed a slight looseness on the steering when I bought it. The paint is now cracking and I never seen factory painted vehicles with paint that shatter like glass! Especially with a low impact or brush with another car. The paint usually sticks!
Here's were it gets worse....I take the car to a Audi, Honda & Porche pro auto body shop where my friend works and he finds that the car was not only previously repainted but that the door was involved in a collision before because it had Bondo (plastic filler) on the both right side doors and quarter panel. WTF!!!! I could understand Acura repainting the car for a minor scratch but my friend who is certified told me that he could tell the entire right side of the TL was repainted and a thick pile of Bondo was used on doors and some of the the quaterpanel...everything points to the car having history with a possible high impact collision on BOTH passenger and rear passenger doors. Bondo cracks and shatters like glass if too much is used...I was not expecting this news and I want to do something about this. I didn't want to buy a used car that had this much damage hidden underneath its Skin unless It was clearly stated before purchase. I even asked the sales men who printed out the carfax to try and reassure me its never been in an accident.
The work adds up to $3000 since my friend wants to reorder me the door and wants to avoid Bondo since I wanted to keep the car. I have a $500 deductible and My insurance is covering the rest but I am not repairing it until I show this to Acura who sold me a car with out listing their own repairs. I spoke to the Used Car manager and he was like "what would you like me to do? you didn't notice it so how am I suppose to know it was previously in an accident or repainted?". I'm like are you F"""" serious!!!? The Cerrtified pre-owned inspection (http://www.acura.com/content/PreOwned/CPO_150pt.pdf) indicates that professional technicians check and inspect the vehicle including paint and fit & finish. No dealership will overlook damages on a returned lease which is prepared for resale and not know what accidents the car was involved in or what was repaired.
He (Stewart Koncious) was not even trying to help and jumped to conclusions with out even asking to see the car or look into it. I don't understand??? This was the same person I contacted via email about possibly getting a 2009 TL 3 months ago who was so nice. Everyone is all so nice when your buying but once you buy, they treat you like you are just a number, some one who will not come back to buy because he already got him!
I am highly upset! What I would like:
1) Show me something that indicate the history of what happened to my car, and what was repaired before they sold me the car. If the damage is was not significant then I would just deal with my insurance as long as proof was provided and order new doors.
2) or Trade mine in after my insurance repairs it and Trade me another preowned TL at equally value. My concerns are now that I have a car with hidden problems that won't be apparent until later on. No car is the same after accidents as something always is affected.
3) or I want my money back...so I could go to another Acura dealership and buy a TL 05-07
My question to you all is who do I go after?? Carfax? Open Road Acura of East Newbrunswick, NJ?
I am taking it to Acura this weekend and if they can't reason with me I will have to report this to the better business Bureau, Hondamotors, and possibly a news network which I work for.
Again, I understand that some cars are repainted because of damages that may occur during the delivery (truck unloading), or lease returns, but heavy repair should be listed or reported to consumers...especially after they back their Certified Pre-owned inspections. (http://www.acura.com/content/PreOwned/CPO_150pt.pdf)
This dealership Open Road Acura of East Newbrunswick, NJ has tricked me into buying a car that has unlisted heavly repaired body damage and failed to report it. The car was ordered by them, leased by them, and now they sold it to me....How am I suppose to know that the car was repaired if the one who repaired it does not report it and the car sales men is telling me its never been in an accident providing his Carfax sheet.
I bought a Certified pre-owned SSM 2005 Acura TL w\ Navi 27k miles on Jun 2008 from Open Road Acura of East Newbrunswick, NJ. Carfax showed that the car has never been in an accident and had 1 owner who leased it from this dealer ship and returned it at 27k. I saw all the service records and the so called Pre-owned certified inspection listed on carfax. So no crashes, scratches or anything are listed in the Carfax. This is why I bought my car at an actual Acura Dealership because I didn't want any used rebuilt car and wanted nothing to do with those "mom and pop" (third party) dealerships. I even bought an extended warranty which wasn't needed but I really planned to keep the car.
Yesterday my car was hit slightly on the lower rear passenger side backdoor. It was a hit and Run...this broke my heart since its only been 6 months of being in love with my TL even though I noticed a slight looseness on the steering when I bought it. The paint is now cracking and I never seen factory painted vehicles with paint that shatter like glass! Especially with a low impact or brush with another car. The paint usually sticks!
Here's were it gets worse....I take the car to a Audi, Honda & Porche pro auto body shop where my friend works and he finds that the car was not only previously repainted but that the door was involved in a collision before because it had Bondo (plastic filler) on the both right side doors and quarter panel. WTF!!!! I could understand Acura repainting the car for a minor scratch but my friend who is certified told me that he could tell the entire right side of the TL was repainted and a thick pile of Bondo was used on doors and some of the the quaterpanel...everything points to the car having history with a possible high impact collision on BOTH passenger and rear passenger doors. Bondo cracks and shatters like glass if too much is used...I was not expecting this news and I want to do something about this. I didn't want to buy a used car that had this much damage hidden underneath its Skin unless It was clearly stated before purchase. I even asked the sales men who printed out the carfax to try and reassure me its never been in an accident.
The work adds up to $3000 since my friend wants to reorder me the door and wants to avoid Bondo since I wanted to keep the car. I have a $500 deductible and My insurance is covering the rest but I am not repairing it until I show this to Acura who sold me a car with out listing their own repairs. I spoke to the Used Car manager and he was like "what would you like me to do? you didn't notice it so how am I suppose to know it was previously in an accident or repainted?". I'm like are you F"""" serious!!!? The Cerrtified pre-owned inspection (http://www.acura.com/content/PreOwned/CPO_150pt.pdf) indicates that professional technicians check and inspect the vehicle including paint and fit & finish. No dealership will overlook damages on a returned lease which is prepared for resale and not know what accidents the car was involved in or what was repaired.
He (Stewart Koncious) was not even trying to help and jumped to conclusions with out even asking to see the car or look into it. I don't understand??? This was the same person I contacted via email about possibly getting a 2009 TL 3 months ago who was so nice. Everyone is all so nice when your buying but once you buy, they treat you like you are just a number, some one who will not come back to buy because he already got him!
I am highly upset! What I would like:
1) Show me something that indicate the history of what happened to my car, and what was repaired before they sold me the car. If the damage is was not significant then I would just deal with my insurance as long as proof was provided and order new doors.
2) or Trade mine in after my insurance repairs it and Trade me another preowned TL at equally value. My concerns are now that I have a car with hidden problems that won't be apparent until later on. No car is the same after accidents as something always is affected.
3) or I want my money back...so I could go to another Acura dealership and buy a TL 05-07
My question to you all is who do I go after?? Carfax? Open Road Acura of East Newbrunswick, NJ?
I am taking it to Acura this weekend and if they can't reason with me I will have to report this to the better business Bureau, Hondamotors, and possibly a news network which I work for.
Again, I understand that some cars are repainted because of damages that may occur during the delivery (truck unloading), or lease returns, but heavy repair should be listed or reported to consumers...especially after they back their Certified Pre-owned inspections. (http://www.acura.com/content/PreOwned/CPO_150pt.pdf)
01-07-2009, 01:51 PM
#4
Pro
It is possible that the previous owner had it done and never told the dealership. I'd tell them and see what they do. Re-reading your post I do see how they (the dealer) should have seen it on inspection. A Lawyer maybe?
Dave
Dave
Last edited by dmarcus48; 01-07-2009 at 01:53 PM.
01-07-2009, 02:21 PM
#5
http://www.openroadacuraofeastbrunswick.com/staff.asp
01-07-2009, 02:25 PM
#6
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Yeah but the stuff he's stating about previous damage is something that wouldnt have been caught under dealership inspection. The person who appraised the car should've probably caught it because there should've been waves in the paint but that could just be human error. However IF the dealership had no knowledge of this they arent responsible. A lot of times what happens is Carfax sometimes takes a little bit of time for things to show up on the report. We've had car in inventory before that had a clean carfax at the time of appraisal. Once the car sat on the lot for a while and the carfax was repulled a accident report came out of no where. Sometimes it takes up to 6 months for the report to go on there. That's why there's a "Carfax Buyback Guarantee" and you can call em up, have them launch a investigation, and if they find it to be true and it's not in their system they're supposed to buy the car back from you at the price you paid. If you have copy of the carfax then it should be on there.
01-07-2009, 02:29 PM
#7
These are the people that work there. Its in NJ. Some named John.
http://www.openroadacuraofeastbrunswick.com/staff.asp
http://www.openroadacuraofeastbrunswick.com/staff.asp
opps i meant Steve not steven
dis guy
& this is the manager i was talkin about
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01-07-2009, 02:30 PM
#8
HER!? yeah..i kno ;)
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I bought my car there too.. they wont do SHIT for u. Get a lawyer and tell them that you are taking a legal action.. that will be the ONLY way to get Bill(online sales manager) and Stewart(general manager)'s attention.
01-07-2009, 02:31 PM
#9
Under construction
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Worse nightmare, going to a dealership to buy a clean car only to find it's been involved in a collision! In my opinion, you probably deserve to get your money back or at least a chance to receive one that's does not have a salvage history. Clean title cars can have a salvage history that doesn't show up on any car report.
01-07-2009, 02:32 PM
#10
Yeah but the stuff he's stating about previous damage is something that wouldnt have been caught under dealership inspection. The person who appraised the car should've probably caught it because there should've been waves in the paint but that could just be human error. However IF the dealership had no knowledge of this they arent responsible. A lot of times what happens is Carfax sometimes takes a little bit of time for things to show up on the report. We've had car in inventory before that had a clean carfax at the time of appraisal. Once the car sat on the lot for a while and the carfax was repulled a accident report came out of no where. Sometimes it takes up to 6 months for the report to go on there. That's why there's a "Carfax Buyback Guarantee" and you can call em up, have them launch a investigation, and if they find it to be true and it's not in their system they're supposed to buy the car back from you at the price you paid. If you have copy of the carfax then it should be on there.
I was trying to find info on the Carfax Buy Back Guarantee and they have no specifics on their site or no number to call.
I still have the original Carfax report that was given to me by the salesman on hand. I really don't want to come down hard on Acura because I love the Tl's 04-08. But this one guy at that dealership pissed me off!!
Last edited by LexLuminati; 01-07-2009 at 02:35 PM.
01-07-2009, 02:40 PM
#11
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Oh PUH-lease.
Talk about "jumping to conclusions".
The person with the lease gets in a significant accident. Has repair work done. Later (who knows how long) retruns the car. The repairing body shop and/or the owner may or may not have reported said repairs to CarFax.
(CarFax for christ's sake? They are a f'kg for profit company - using their service to report damage isn't a *law* or anything. Would *you* report major damage to CarFax?).
A general once-over on return inspection WON'T notice the *repaired* damage, only *un-repaired damage.
The "Certified" process/checklist is worth the paper it's written on and maybe given slightly more attention than the "24-point inspection" you get free with every oil change. "Certified Pre-Owned" = greatest marketing scam in the used car business for years.
IOW - why must you assume that the seller had any idea or even *wanted* to know?
Let the buyer beware.
Did you ask for a disclosure statement - said car no known accident or repair valued above $xxx ? Bet not. If you had and they had said, "it's good" when if fact they knew of such damage, *then* you'd have something to complain about.
Talk about "jumping to conclusions".
The person with the lease gets in a significant accident. Has repair work done. Later (who knows how long) retruns the car. The repairing body shop and/or the owner may or may not have reported said repairs to CarFax.
(CarFax for christ's sake? They are a f'kg for profit company - using their service to report damage isn't a *law* or anything. Would *you* report major damage to CarFax?).
A general once-over on return inspection WON'T notice the *repaired* damage, only *un-repaired damage.
The "Certified" process/checklist is worth the paper it's written on and maybe given slightly more attention than the "24-point inspection" you get free with every oil change. "Certified Pre-Owned" = greatest marketing scam in the used car business for years.
IOW - why must you assume that the seller had any idea or even *wanted* to know?
Let the buyer beware.
Did you ask for a disclosure statement - said car no known accident or repair valued above $xxx ? Bet not. If you had and they had said, "it's good" when if fact they knew of such damage, *then* you'd have something to complain about.
Last edited by Bearcat94; 01-07-2009 at 02:42 PM.
01-07-2009, 02:47 PM
#13
You guys are great! I really felt like no would understand or relate. But it feels good to know that there are people who I can turn to or at least make me feel like I have some direction.
Its hard to think when Life changing situation's happen. This was an investment that I thought and worked hard for to get it right...then this happends.
01-07-2009, 02:54 PM
#15
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Oh PUH-lease.
Talk about "jumping to conclusions".
The person with the lease gets in a significant accident. Has repair work done. Later (who knows how long) retruns the car. The repairing body shop and/or the owner may or may not have reported said repairs to CarFax.
(CarFax for christ's sake? They are a f'kg for profit company - using their service to report damage isn't a *law* or anything. Would *you* report major damage to CarFax?).
A general once-over on return inspection WON'T notice the *repaired* damage, only *un-repaired damage.
The "Certified" process/checklist is worth the paper it's written on and maybe given slightly more attention than the "24-point inspection" you get free with every oil change. "Certified Pre-Owned" = greatest marketing scam in the used car business for years.
IOW - why must you assume that the seller had any idea or even *wanted* to know?
Let the buyer beware.
Did you ask for a disclosure statement - said car no known accident or repair valued above $xxx ? Bet not. If you had and they had said, "it's good" when if fact they knew of such damage, *then* you'd have something to complain about.
Talk about "jumping to conclusions".
The person with the lease gets in a significant accident. Has repair work done. Later (who knows how long) retruns the car. The repairing body shop and/or the owner may or may not have reported said repairs to CarFax.
(CarFax for christ's sake? They are a f'kg for profit company - using their service to report damage isn't a *law* or anything. Would *you* report major damage to CarFax?).
A general once-over on return inspection WON'T notice the *repaired* damage, only *un-repaired damage.
The "Certified" process/checklist is worth the paper it's written on and maybe given slightly more attention than the "24-point inspection" you get free with every oil change. "Certified Pre-Owned" = greatest marketing scam in the used car business for years.
IOW - why must you assume that the seller had any idea or even *wanted* to know?
Let the buyer beware.
Did you ask for a disclosure statement - said car no known accident or repair valued above $xxx ? Bet not. If you had and they had said, "it's good" when if fact they knew of such damage, *then* you'd have something to complain about.
I agree with most of what you said except one portion.
Most people DO report major damage because most people dont have the money to cover major damage. And it all depends on whether the repairer is online with carfax just like some dealerships are and arent. That's why sometimes you'll see service reports on there because that particular dealership is online with carfax. Most people dont report small damage because they will either leave the damage the way it is or they'll come out of pocket with the couple hundred needed for minor repairs.
01-07-2009, 03:11 PM
#16
When you have a leased car and you KNOW acura is going to ding you big time $$$ on reduced value if it has a reported crash-bad carfax at return, that reduces resale value below the agreed on end lease price
Thats a lost value so they charge the lease holder that amount
In that case you simply pay for repairs yourself!!! acura knows nothing-
nobody saw nothin no one knows nuthin~
As long as the insurance company doesnt get involved- they have no report to make to carfax!
Body shops are not required - or paid- to report repairs to carfax-
The beauty of cash!
CPO inspection is supposed to catch major things, condition of brakes-tires, but if the frame was damaged and left with obvious repair or not repaired... they see that.
tires worn out or uneven wear- they can see that. Air filters- bondo- repaint--not even looking for that!
BUT it is always up to the buyer to do a complete walk-around inspection with the sales manager before accepting the car, and an underbody inspection by a seperate private shop to confirm all is good. BEFORE the contract gets signed
Salesmen will say anything you want to hear- and wave the carfax as if it were worth anything!
How does the dealer know you didnt crash the car 2nd day out- repair it and now come back 6 months later claiming it was defective??
If it steered funny or anything, that should have gone back in to the service dept within 30 days, anything past that is going to be on the buyer for not reporting.
The manager ask you- what do you want me to do about it??- tell them what you want
They have to have somewhere to negoiate from-
a new car- not happening
cash- take a hike
a free oil service!- probably
Thats a lost value so they charge the lease holder that amount
In that case you simply pay for repairs yourself!!! acura knows nothing-
nobody saw nothin no one knows nuthin~
As long as the insurance company doesnt get involved- they have no report to make to carfax!
Body shops are not required - or paid- to report repairs to carfax-
The beauty of cash!
CPO inspection is supposed to catch major things, condition of brakes-tires, but if the frame was damaged and left with obvious repair or not repaired... they see that.
tires worn out or uneven wear- they can see that. Air filters- bondo- repaint--not even looking for that!
BUT it is always up to the buyer to do a complete walk-around inspection with the sales manager before accepting the car, and an underbody inspection by a seperate private shop to confirm all is good. BEFORE the contract gets signed
Salesmen will say anything you want to hear- and wave the carfax as if it were worth anything!
How does the dealer know you didnt crash the car 2nd day out- repair it and now come back 6 months later claiming it was defective??
If it steered funny or anything, that should have gone back in to the service dept within 30 days, anything past that is going to be on the buyer for not reporting.
The manager ask you- what do you want me to do about it??- tell them what you want
They have to have somewhere to negoiate from-
a new car- not happening
cash- take a hike
a free oil service!- probably
01-07-2009, 03:15 PM
#17
Oh PUH-lease.
Talk about "jumping to conclusions".
The person with the lease gets in a significant accident. Has repair work done. Later (who knows how long) retruns the car. The repairing body shop and/or the owner may or may not have reported said repairs to CarFax.
(CarFax for christ's sake? They are a f'kg for profit company - using their service to report damage isn't a *law* or anything. Would *you* report major damage to CarFax?).
A general once-over on return inspection WON'T notice the *repaired* damage, only *un-repaired damage.
The "Certified" process/checklist is worth the paper it's written on and maybe given slightly more attention than the "24-point inspection" you get free with every oil change. "Certified Pre-Owned" = greatest marketing scam in the used car business for years.
IOW - why must you assume that the seller had any idea or even *wanted* to know?
Let the buyer beware.
Did you ask for a disclosure statement - said car no known accident or repair valued above $xxx ? Bet not. If you had and they had said, "it's good" when if fact they knew of such damage, *then* you'd have something to complain about.
Talk about "jumping to conclusions".
The person with the lease gets in a significant accident. Has repair work done. Later (who knows how long) retruns the car. The repairing body shop and/or the owner may or may not have reported said repairs to CarFax.
(CarFax for christ's sake? They are a f'kg for profit company - using their service to report damage isn't a *law* or anything. Would *you* report major damage to CarFax?).
A general once-over on return inspection WON'T notice the *repaired* damage, only *un-repaired damage.
The "Certified" process/checklist is worth the paper it's written on and maybe given slightly more attention than the "24-point inspection" you get free with every oil change. "Certified Pre-Owned" = greatest marketing scam in the used car business for years.
IOW - why must you assume that the seller had any idea or even *wanted* to know?
Let the buyer beware.
Did you ask for a disclosure statement - said car no known accident or repair valued above $xxx ? Bet not. If you had and they had said, "it's good" when if fact they knew of such damage, *then* you'd have something to complain about.
Everything has 2 sides.
I appreciate your opinion and I don't want you or anybody to think I am trying to be smarter or have an argument with anybody. I am just trying to find out what my options are in case this happens to some one else...I then could help them. Thats all.
I could understand your point in playing devils advocate and all. (I was expecting this)
Great valid points...but you live and you learn and no one ever has a checklist for things that happen in life. No checklist is perfect. So I will add the disclosure statement to the list for the next time even though it does nothing for me now.
Carfax, as crappy as they may be its something and I am sure they have some type of legal obligation with certian situations. They advertise something they better back it. I rather be optimistic and give it a try.
Pre-owned Certified, I go by the information provided to me on acura's site. http://www.acura.com/content/PreOwned/CPO_150pt.pdf. It's a 150 point inspection before resale which includes the paint. Yes its used as tool to sell car's but I am sure I can find a way to make this work to my advantage.
Your right I should not assume that they knew it was damaged or repaired?...I just think the chances are very higher that they know it was repaired...just as high as the chances of them selling the car without telling anyone about the damages. Who paid the price? I did. I don't want anyone as a consumer to pay the price. Those dealers don't always care about consumers only money. Only a few may exist.
01-07-2009, 03:18 PM
#18
there is very little chance the repairs were made at an acura dealer- they would have replaced door panels- not bondo and they would have reported it to carfax and their own system would know it
Someones neighbor or buddy with a shop will happily bondo (you can do it yourself these days) then get a partial repaint by quickie place that didnt use the PPG paint or whatever special paint we undoubtedly need~
think about it- does the dealer repair or replace parts- well theres your answer and stop blaming acura dealer for not knowing- blame carfax and use their guarantee instead
Someones neighbor or buddy with a shop will happily bondo (you can do it yourself these days) then get a partial repaint by quickie place that didnt use the PPG paint or whatever special paint we undoubtedly need~
think about it- does the dealer repair or replace parts- well theres your answer and stop blaming acura dealer for not knowing- blame carfax and use their guarantee instead
01-07-2009, 03:24 PM
#19
as far as we know- If a currect acura tech would educate us please--
CPO inspections MAY be getting done by a junior or even first training level tech who makes less money, is young and learning about cars, may not have the experience to really look at things and analyze-
just has a list and a diagram to follow around the car, do all the switches work, the glass is not broken etc
Mostly they make sure the stereo works (well tested) and the car is detailed nicely to look new
CPO inspections MAY be getting done by a junior or even first training level tech who makes less money, is young and learning about cars, may not have the experience to really look at things and analyze-
just has a list and a diagram to follow around the car, do all the switches work, the glass is not broken etc
Mostly they make sure the stereo works (well tested) and the car is detailed nicely to look new
01-07-2009, 03:37 PM
#20
If you know you are returning a car after the lease is up, an accident that is entirely your fault would be repaired in the least costly method available. If I hit a pole (as my wife did in her van), I would get it fixed at the lowest quoted shop that guarantees the results. I would not report it to my insurance & have them void my good driver discount & jack up my policy. This happened to my family. The vehicle was returned & there where no additional charges. No one knows but me & the body shop.
Full disclosure is voluntary, think about it. What would the previous owner get out of full disclosure? Nothing but a big bill from Acura. You got the shitty end of a real world occurrence.
Full disclosure is voluntary, think about it. What would the previous owner get out of full disclosure? Nothing but a big bill from Acura. You got the shitty end of a real world occurrence.
01-07-2009, 03:41 PM
#21
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All good points. The one other thing I want to add is another reason why the dealer probably didnt know. For bigger reputable dealers it is not worth the hassle to sell a known damaged car whether it's on carfax or not. The small profit we are making these days isnt worth the headache when you can just wholesale the car. Smaller lots will try and get away with it because they are what they are and usually prey on illegals and 2nd chance credit customers that either wont care or wont bother to have the car checked.
01-07-2009, 03:52 PM
#22
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For the buyer - full disclosure is often required by law *if you ask*. If you ask and they don't tell you the truth (and you buy the item), they are liable for return/repair, etc.
OP - IMHO your response to my 1st post is a much more reasonable tact: "what are my options?"; "how do find out what happened?".
Your first post (and Thread title) sounded (to me) more like: "The dealer screwed me on purpose" and "It's all Acura's fault". From your post *only*, there are not enough facts to bear that out; hence my "don't be a whiner" reply.
01-07-2009, 05:27 PM
#23
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i dunn but a friend i noe at a acura dealership told me that at his job a tech hit a customers car n all they did was tell the owner that they had to order parts while really it was in the body shop 
ouch damn dealers is any one honest any more
ouch damn dealers is any one honest any more
01-07-2009, 06:52 PM
#24
my thought is that regardless whether or not the dealership knows about this problem before selling you the car, someone will be held accountable. So, if I were you, try to sue the dealership (whatever deals fit you) and the dealership can sue the previous owner to recoup their cost paid to you.
01-07-2009, 07:13 PM
#26
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my thought is that regardless whether or not the dealership knows about this problem before selling you the car, someone will be held accountable. So, if I were you, try to sue the dealership (whatever deals fit you) and the dealership can sue the previous owner to recoup their cost paid to you.
Come on man, you *can't* be serious?
No way the OP wins unless he *proves* the dealer knew the car was in an accident. That ain't gonna happen - no way, no how.
Hell, they can *prove* they did a Certified Pre-Owned 153-point inspection and were unable to detect the repair:
"Your honor, we had *no* idea the previous owner wrecked this car, swear to God.
It was given Acura's class leading certification inspection; I have the technicians worksheet and signature right here to show how carefully we inspect a car and this damage simply was not apparent.
As a matter of fact, for all we know, the current owner wrecked it and is blaming our poor little dealership in an attempt to make dishonest and under-handed money-grab."
Now tell me, please, how do you disprove that?
If the OP can't win, the dealer doesn't have to worry about going after anyone else.
Oh, BTW, the dealer is already lawyered up with attorney's on retainer PLUS Acura corp Attorney's. IOW - limits cost/risk to the dealer and Acura if someone takes them to court.
Again - unless the dealership can be *proven* to have knowledge of the accident, beyond doubt, the OP has *nothing* but a case of "live and learn."
01-07-2009, 07:15 PM
#27
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Guess not:
The CARFAX Buyback Guarantee protects you from unknowingly buying a used car with DMV-reported incidents (salvage, fire, flood damage, odometer problems or lemon history). This coverage lasts one year and is transferable.
CARFAX agrees to pay to the holder of a CARFAX® Vehicle History Report (the "Report") making a Claim (the "Claimant") the Claimant's purchase price of the vehicle to which the Report relates (the "Vehicle") up to 10% over the Kelley Blue Book value (see terms 8 and 9 for details) if the Report states that the Vehicle has a title history with no Branded Titles showing, but a Branded Title actually exists.
A "Branded Title" is a passenger motor vehicle ownership or registration document issued by any of the 50 states of the U.S. (or the District of Columbia) or a passenger motor vehicle registration document issued by any province of Canada which was issued with words or symbols signifying that the vehicle was: junked or salvaged; dismantled, rebuilt or reconstructed; flood damaged; fire damaged; hail damaged; bought back by its manufacturer ("Lemon Law" vehicle); odometer exceeds mechanical limits; odometer was not actual mileage; or which was issued with any other symbol or word signifying a similar Brand.
A "Branded Title" is a passenger motor vehicle ownership or registration document issued by any of the 50 states of the U.S. (or the District of Columbia) or a passenger motor vehicle registration document issued by any province of Canada which was issued with words or symbols signifying that the vehicle was: junked or salvaged; dismantled, rebuilt or reconstructed; flood damaged; fire damaged; hail damaged; bought back by its manufacturer ("Lemon Law" vehicle); odometer exceeds mechanical limits; odometer was not actual mileage; or which was issued with any other symbol or word signifying a similar Brand.
http://www.carfax.com/manifest/bbg/termsConditions.cfx
Just plain "wrecked and repaired" does not seem to qualify.
Last edited by Bearcat94; 01-07-2009 at 07:18 PM.
01-07-2009, 07:51 PM
#28
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CARFAX is a good general tool for a used car buyer but is by no means foolproof or the end all be all. I bought my wife a used ES330 and also was given a clean CARFAX report. I inspected the car myself and noticed a couple of seams that didn't seem to line up correctly, but ultimately went forward with the purchase.
I spoke with my brother who works in the insurance industry and has access to an insurance database. I gave him the VIN and he was able to give me much of the same info as CARFAX. The port of entry, original dealership, when it was sold, first registered date, to whom, their address, some of the services performed, but also the following:
accident date
insurance claim amount
general description of authorized repairs
length of substitute transporation authorization
PM me the VIN and I'll see what I can get for you - however, I can't guarantee anything.
I spoke with my brother who works in the insurance industry and has access to an insurance database. I gave him the VIN and he was able to give me much of the same info as CARFAX. The port of entry, original dealership, when it was sold, first registered date, to whom, their address, some of the services performed, but also the following:
accident date
insurance claim amount
general description of authorized repairs
length of substitute transporation authorization
PM me the VIN and I'll see what I can get for you - however, I can't guarantee anything.
01-07-2009, 09:15 PM
#29
If you pay cash at a body shop, they will NOT report it to carfax, because then they will have to report the sales tax and all the stuff. I guess you can say i "cheat" the system, but it makes sense, why go thru insurance for $1500, when your only saying $1000 short term, but long term your f*cked.
In NYS if you get involved in a MVA with over $1,000 in damages, and you choose to go through insurance, you MUST sumbit a MV-104 form to the DMV within 10 days otherwise your license will be suspended. it is pretty much the same as a police report. THEN it will show on carfax. If you get into a MVA and pay cash to get your car fixed, and/or the other car to get fixed, it will NOT be reported to carfax.
In NYS if you get involved in a MVA with over $1,000 in damages, and you choose to go through insurance, you MUST sumbit a MV-104 form to the DMV within 10 days otherwise your license will be suspended. it is pretty much the same as a police report. THEN it will show on carfax. If you get into a MVA and pay cash to get your car fixed, and/or the other car to get fixed, it will NOT be reported to carfax.
Last edited by greco9885; 01-07-2009 at 09:19 PM.
01-07-2009, 09:22 PM
#30
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I'm sorry but I feel this falls on the dealer not the buyer, I would look in to the NJ used car Lemon law.
http://www.nj.gov/lps/ca/ocp/usedlemon.htm
good luck and thanks for the post, I learned a lot from it.
http://www.nj.gov/lps/ca/ocp/usedlemon.htm
good luck and thanks for the post, I learned a lot from it.
01-07-2009, 09:51 PM
#31
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I'm sorry but I feel this falls on the dealer not the buyer, I would look in to the NJ used car Lemon law.
http://www.nj.gov/lps/ca/ocp/usedlemon.htm
good luck and thanks for the post, I learned a lot from it.
http://www.nj.gov/lps/ca/ocp/usedlemon.htm
good luck and thanks for the post, I learned a lot from it.
From your link:
....However, the Lemon Law does not cover defects caused by an accident, vandalism, abuse or neglect. It also does not cover defects caused by attempts to repair .... the vehicle by a person other than the manufacturer, its agent or an authorized dealer.
The statute requires a dealer “to correct a material defect
of the used vehicle.”
of the used vehicle.”
"Material defect" means a malfunction of a used motor vehicle, subject to a warranty, which substantially impairs its use, value or safety.
If during the warranty period the used motor
vehicle fails to operate properly through no fault of the
consumer and the dealer has had a reasonable opportunity
to repair the motor vehicle and he refuses to replace or
refund the full purchase price of the motor vehicle, then
the consumer may be eligible for assistance under the
Used Car Lemon Law.
vehicle fails to operate properly through no fault of the
consumer and the dealer has had a reasonable opportunity
to repair the motor vehicle and he refuses to replace or
refund the full purchase price of the motor vehicle, then
the consumer may be eligible for assistance under the
Used Car Lemon Law.
I *still* don't see it.
Just MHO. Take it to a Lemon Law Lawyer, see what they say. I've got no problem eating crow if I'm wrong (but I won't be
).
01-07-2009, 09:55 PM
#32
I think the following happened:
Leasee was involved in a side-impact collision. Leasee was at fault and didn't want to report it due to his contract. Leasee repaired the damage at some hole in the wall shop and because of that, it never made it to CarFax.
CarFax had no knowledge so, in turn, had no reason to report a collision.
Acura also had no knowledge of this, so, in turn, had no reason to raise flags.
Acura, however, did not do a very detailed job of inspecting for damage, or, the cover-up was very good by the hole in the wall shop.
So, who's to blame? Well, probably the following in respective order: Acura for buying back or accepting the lease vehicle, the hole in the wall shop (fraud, kind of like odometer turnback fraud), and the leasee for the cover-up or failure of disclosure.
Who to go after? Probably CarFax would be the easiest if you have a paid for a report stating no previous collisions. I'm not sure how the BuyBack program works in full, but that's their most important quality for their existence.
Leasee was involved in a side-impact collision. Leasee was at fault and didn't want to report it due to his contract. Leasee repaired the damage at some hole in the wall shop and because of that, it never made it to CarFax.
CarFax had no knowledge so, in turn, had no reason to report a collision.
Acura also had no knowledge of this, so, in turn, had no reason to raise flags.
Acura, however, did not do a very detailed job of inspecting for damage, or, the cover-up was very good by the hole in the wall shop.
So, who's to blame? Well, probably the following in respective order: Acura for buying back or accepting the lease vehicle, the hole in the wall shop (fraud, kind of like odometer turnback fraud), and the leasee for the cover-up or failure of disclosure.
Who to go after? Probably CarFax would be the easiest if you have a paid for a report stating no previous collisions. I'm not sure how the BuyBack program works in full, but that's their most important quality for their existence.
01-07-2009, 11:06 PM
#33
based on what al I have read here- its on the buyer beware program
IF the buyer had reported problems in steering or other problem to the dealer and they looked the car over again and proclaimed it sound-- then you would have issue with them, If note was made of the misaligned door- but nothing written or investigated...
(that should have been reason to RUN from the deal right there- acura body lines are perfect ---or its been hit bad)
BUT the OP did not appear to do that
The dealer has to believe it was good when it left
MANY lease cars are moved across the country for no known reason to the public.
Florida cars come to Ca !
In lease return cars- the perfect ones stay at the dealer and are resold
The rest go to the auction house and end up somewhere far away
The dealer does the basic CPO inspection in order to offer warranty on the car and sells it. Salesmen make no effort to look up anything or know anything except what they will accept $$ for the car, and how much that will leave in his commission!
An acura dealer is not going to risk the liabilty and bad press of selling known damaged cars.
As for the cars damaged while in their care- you have to walk around your car when you drop it off and when you pick it up--with a camera and manager with you!
I remember back one cold snowy iced over day, when the GM wanted to bring around a custom ordered 4wd with gold windows, got around the back of the shop- gassed it- went sideways towards the dumpster and neatly put that metal side handle right thru the rear side window!
Customer waiting in the shoproom- special order glass piece,,,,ooooops
Had to show him and say sorry~
Glad it was the manager and not me
IF the buyer had reported problems in steering or other problem to the dealer and they looked the car over again and proclaimed it sound-- then you would have issue with them, If note was made of the misaligned door- but nothing written or investigated...
(that should have been reason to RUN from the deal right there- acura body lines are perfect ---or its been hit bad)
BUT the OP did not appear to do that
The dealer has to believe it was good when it left
MANY lease cars are moved across the country for no known reason to the public.
Florida cars come to Ca !
In lease return cars- the perfect ones stay at the dealer and are resold
The rest go to the auction house and end up somewhere far away
The dealer does the basic CPO inspection in order to offer warranty on the car and sells it. Salesmen make no effort to look up anything or know anything except what they will accept $$ for the car, and how much that will leave in his commission!
An acura dealer is not going to risk the liabilty and bad press of selling known damaged cars.
As for the cars damaged while in their care- you have to walk around your car when you drop it off and when you pick it up--with a camera and manager with you!
I remember back one cold snowy iced over day, when the GM wanted to bring around a custom ordered 4wd with gold windows, got around the back of the shop- gassed it- went sideways towards the dumpster and neatly put that metal side handle right thru the rear side window!
Customer waiting in the shoproom- special order glass piece,,,,ooooops
Had to show him and say sorry~
Glad it was the manager and not me
01-07-2009, 11:11 PM
#34
repair shops are not required by any law to report its repairs to anyone
If its an insurance repair, the insurance company tells carfax- that helps other insurance companies avoid double paying on a claimed repair
State registrations get reported to carfax
Some dealers report any services as a visit, doesnt say exactly what for- just comes up as another hit on the car- showing visit to dealer
You can learn much about a car you want to buy by calling acura and asking them
1-800-382-2238 x5
The thought that not telling carfax lets a shop not pay sales tax is not correct at all!!!!
They can write normal invoices- they are a private business and who they do work for is no one elses business~
If its an insurance repair, the insurance company tells carfax- that helps other insurance companies avoid double paying on a claimed repair
State registrations get reported to carfax
Some dealers report any services as a visit, doesnt say exactly what for- just comes up as another hit on the car- showing visit to dealer
You can learn much about a car you want to buy by calling acura and asking them
1-800-382-2238 x5
The thought that not telling carfax lets a shop not pay sales tax is not correct at all!!!!
They can write normal invoices- they are a private business and who they do work for is no one elses business~
01-07-2009, 11:44 PM
#35
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1. Why do all you guys think CarFax is some all seeing, all knowing entity? NO ONE IS REQUIRED TO REPORT ANYTHING TO CARFAX. Nothing shady or illegal about it. There is NO FRAUD on the part of the body shop for not informing CarFax unless they are contractually obligated to do so.
2. Read the Thread. The CarFax Guarantee Only covers TITLE "Brands" or "Flags", NOT Accidents. CarFax is just another company taking your money by providing a service that "may" - as in might, maybe, could be, maybe not - have non-title infomation about a car of interest. (btw - that "may" is a quote FROM CarFax)
3. Acura MUST accept back a leased vehicle. It is a Contract Obligation. Period. REGARDLESS of condition. Yes the user may be liable for the cost to bring it back to saleable condition, but it is RIDICULOUS to claim that Acura is at fault for "accepting the lease vehicle".
4. The person leasing the vehicle is under NO OBLIGATION to report an accident to Acura. They are ONLY obligated to insure the car is legal in state where it is registered, that the car is properly insured and that the car is returned at the time and in the condition agreed. If the car is Functionally normal and Appearance is normal, that's the end of the story - the End of Lease Inspection is only SKIN DEEP.
5. The owner of a damaged vehicle can have it repaired where ever and when ever they choose. They don't have to inform their insurance if they don't want to. They can delay or choose not to repair it. They can repair in their garage, at a "hole in the wall" or at the best body shop on the planet. The ONLY possible wrong-doing would be if the person leasing signed a disclosure stating the car had NOT been in an accident when, in fact, it had.
6. I cannot believe the lack of Common Sense and amount of mis-information and bad advice being given in this thread. It's pathetic. Really.
Best thing the OP can do is ask a REAL expert about the laws in his state and then if warrented, PROVE that dealership either knew about the accident or was negligent in performing their inspections and *should* have known about the accident.
That requires:
- time;
- investigation;
- and facts.
At this point the OP has none of the above.
2. Read the Thread. The CarFax Guarantee Only covers TITLE "Brands" or "Flags", NOT Accidents. CarFax is just another company taking your money by providing a service that "may" - as in might, maybe, could be, maybe not - have non-title infomation about a car of interest. (btw - that "may" is a quote FROM CarFax)
3. Acura MUST accept back a leased vehicle. It is a Contract Obligation. Period. REGARDLESS of condition. Yes the user may be liable for the cost to bring it back to saleable condition, but it is RIDICULOUS to claim that Acura is at fault for "accepting the lease vehicle".
4. The person leasing the vehicle is under NO OBLIGATION to report an accident to Acura. They are ONLY obligated to insure the car is legal in state where it is registered, that the car is properly insured and that the car is returned at the time and in the condition agreed. If the car is Functionally normal and Appearance is normal, that's the end of the story - the End of Lease Inspection is only SKIN DEEP.
5. The owner of a damaged vehicle can have it repaired where ever and when ever they choose. They don't have to inform their insurance if they don't want to. They can delay or choose not to repair it. They can repair in their garage, at a "hole in the wall" or at the best body shop on the planet. The ONLY possible wrong-doing would be if the person leasing signed a disclosure stating the car had NOT been in an accident when, in fact, it had.
6. I cannot believe the lack of Common Sense and amount of mis-information and bad advice being given in this thread. It's pathetic. Really.
Best thing the OP can do is ask a REAL expert about the laws in his state and then if warrented, PROVE that dealership either knew about the accident or was negligent in performing their inspections and *should* have known about the accident.
That requires:
- time;
- investigation;
- and facts.
At this point the OP has none of the above.
Last edited by Bearcat94; 01-07-2009 at 11:49 PM.
01-08-2009, 06:20 AM
#37
Safety Car
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This makes me WONDER???
I recently bought a 2006 WDP TL Nav Manual from a local Acura dealer. It is Certified with all the papers. The car has 29k miles and comes with a great Acura Certified warranty. When I first test drove the car everything seemed great. After buying it I noticed the alignment was weird, not always perfect. I also noticed a creeking noise when I turn a corner, like a loose stabilizer, NOT a rattle, a weird creeking noise. I took it back to Acura, they did a 4 wheel alignment and said it was SLIGHTLY OFF. I drove the car and it is the same. Sometimes its not too bad, other times it seems to pull quite a bit. The car came with 235/45/17" BFG g-Force sport ZR Summer Tires that are pretty new. I now put on a set of like new/used RJ Legend 19" wheels with General Exclaim UPH 245/35/19" tires and its quite bad now. I have to CONSTANTLY correct the steering. I am pretty paranoid now, not sure what to think????????????? WTF
I recently bought a 2006 WDP TL Nav Manual from a local Acura dealer. It is Certified with all the papers. The car has 29k miles and comes with a great Acura Certified warranty. When I first test drove the car everything seemed great. After buying it I noticed the alignment was weird, not always perfect. I also noticed a creeking noise when I turn a corner, like a loose stabilizer, NOT a rattle, a weird creeking noise. I took it back to Acura, they did a 4 wheel alignment and said it was SLIGHTLY OFF. I drove the car and it is the same. Sometimes its not too bad, other times it seems to pull quite a bit. The car came with 235/45/17" BFG g-Force sport ZR Summer Tires that are pretty new. I now put on a set of like new/used RJ Legend 19" wheels with General Exclaim UPH 245/35/19" tires and its quite bad now. I have to CONSTANTLY correct the steering. I am pretty paranoid now, not sure what to think????????????? WTF
01-08-2009, 06:55 AM
#38
That is so very unsettling to know especially since I am about to purchase a used car from the same dealership and have been speaking with one of the managers mentioned above. I am also getting a Certified Pre-Owned vehicle.
The dealership, in my opinion, is also using (for lack of a better word) tricks to get more money out of the deal. I know this probably belongs in another thread but they are slightly adjusting all the applicable prices I was previously advised, to increase the overall value of the purchase by a couple of hundred and for some strange reason insist on even registering the vehicle for me, which they can't do as MD requires a mandatory vehicle inspection certificate from an authorized garage and so unless they drive the car to my state to get it cleared, they cant register it. But, they want to charge this to me none-the-less and the sales guy's pitch as to why this needs to be done was nothing more than astounding "The DMV only wants the dealership to register the vehicle". Really? I'll have to share this with the rest of my tribe.
As for CarFax, I do agree with what most on here are saying, they are a joke, especially if you are using them as the sole place to discover your pre-owned car's service history. Years ago I nearly bought a used 330i that was in mint condition. CarFax checked out and the dealership where this was serviced had a perfect history (based on the VIN). But I just couldn't swallow the fact that I was getting the car $4K cheaper than what others in the league were going for. After digging around for nearly a week, I ended up finding the details of, and getting in touch with the auto-body shop that "repaired" the car. The trunk and rear seats were basically one. Car needed pretty much a new rear and had "major" frame damage iirc.
Don't go with what CarFax, use it as a supplement. But that said, I agree that the CPO certification process SHOULD have caught it. I will now be looking at my sale even closer before I pick it up.
The dealership, in my opinion, is also using (for lack of a better word) tricks to get more money out of the deal. I know this probably belongs in another thread but they are slightly adjusting all the applicable prices I was previously advised, to increase the overall value of the purchase by a couple of hundred and for some strange reason insist on even registering the vehicle for me, which they can't do as MD requires a mandatory vehicle inspection certificate from an authorized garage and so unless they drive the car to my state to get it cleared, they cant register it. But, they want to charge this to me none-the-less and the sales guy's pitch as to why this needs to be done was nothing more than astounding "The DMV only wants the dealership to register the vehicle". Really? I'll have to share this with the rest of my tribe.
As for CarFax, I do agree with what most on here are saying, they are a joke, especially if you are using them as the sole place to discover your pre-owned car's service history. Years ago I nearly bought a used 330i that was in mint condition. CarFax checked out and the dealership where this was serviced had a perfect history (based on the VIN). But I just couldn't swallow the fact that I was getting the car $4K cheaper than what others in the league were going for. After digging around for nearly a week, I ended up finding the details of, and getting in touch with the auto-body shop that "repaired" the car. The trunk and rear seats were basically one. Car needed pretty much a new rear and had "major" frame damage iirc.
Don't go with what CarFax, use it as a supplement. But that said, I agree that the CPO certification process SHOULD have caught it. I will now be looking at my sale even closer before I pick it up.
Last edited by encryption; 01-08-2009 at 06:57 AM.
01-08-2009, 07:00 AM
#39
Safety Car
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Any Suggestions ???
This makes me WONDER???
I recently bought a 2006 WDP TL Nav Manual from a local Acura dealer. It is Certified with all the papers. The car has 29k miles and comes with a great Acura Certified warranty. When I first test drove the car everything seemed great. After buying it I noticed the alignment was weird, not always perfect. I also noticed a creeking noise when I turn a corner, like a loose stabilizer, NOT a rattle, a weird creeking noise. I took it back to Acura, they did a 4 wheel alignment and said it was SLIGHTLY OFF. I drove the car and it is the same. Sometimes its not too bad, other times it seems to pull quite a bit. The car came with 235/45/17" BFG g-Force sport ZR Summer Tires that are pretty new. I now put on a set of like new/used RJ Legend 19" wheels with General Exclaim UPH 245/35/19" tires and its quite bad now. I have to CONSTANTLY correct the steering. I am pretty paranoid now, not sure what to think????????????? WTF
I recently bought a 2006 WDP TL Nav Manual from a local Acura dealer. It is Certified with all the papers. The car has 29k miles and comes with a great Acura Certified warranty. When I first test drove the car everything seemed great. After buying it I noticed the alignment was weird, not always perfect. I also noticed a creeking noise when I turn a corner, like a loose stabilizer, NOT a rattle, a weird creeking noise. I took it back to Acura, they did a 4 wheel alignment and said it was SLIGHTLY OFF. I drove the car and it is the same. Sometimes its not too bad, other times it seems to pull quite a bit. The car came with 235/45/17" BFG g-Force sport ZR Summer Tires that are pretty new. I now put on a set of like new/used RJ Legend 19" wheels with General Exclaim UPH 245/35/19" tires and its quite bad now. I have to CONSTANTLY correct the steering. I am pretty paranoid now, not sure what to think????????????? WTF
^^^^^^^ What do you suggest??? Thanks for any ideas.
01-08-2009, 07:12 AM
#40
Is the OP from NJ?
From your link:
If the car functioned correctly there is no material defect. It sounds as if the OP would *never had known* about previous body work if he hadn't had his mis-hap. IOW - the car was perfectly functional with no sign of a "material defect".
There was no "malfunction".
I *still* don't see it.
Just MHO. Take it to a Lemon Law Lawyer, see what they say. I've got no problem eating crow if I'm wrong (but I won't be ).
From your link:
If the car functioned correctly there is no material defect. It sounds as if the OP would *never had known* about previous body work if he hadn't had his mis-hap. IOW - the car was perfectly functional with no sign of a "material defect".
There was no "malfunction".
I *still* don't see it.
Just MHO. Take it to a Lemon Law Lawyer, see what they say. I've got no problem eating crow if I'm wrong (but I won't be
).I took the car to Acura 1 week ago so they could change HFL Mic located by the sunroof, replace the horrible leather, interior lights (heated seats and radio buttons) and all recalls like the hose that leaks. I told them about the allignment and the aligned the car. Its still has slight steering issues at low speeds under 30 mph and I always have to keep my hand on the wheel or it will steer to either side no matter how straight the road pavement is. The car has had issues and I have the service sheets to prove it.
I want you guys to understand that I love my TL!! and was even willing to ignore the steering issues...but this now makes wonder how bad it was hit and changes things for me.
Its like getting married to the person you love and always wanted, only to find out that she was doing porn before she met you and now you want to know how many people banged her...lol