B Service Upsell
06-14-2006, 03:57 PM
#1
oicu8sum2
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B Service Upsell
It's been a while since my last post and though not a frequent poster, I just had to post here to get some feedback on my experience with Acura today.
I brought my car in for B Service at $130. I just got tires so I told them "no rotate". I realize $130 is a rip off for a visual inspection of certain items but at least I have the B service documented in my records for when I sell the car (which is fine with me).
So I get a call back saying the car was done and after the visual inspection they recommended the following:
1. Brake flush at $133
2. Pollen Filter for Internal Cabin Replacement at $108
3. Coolant Flush at $90
4. Top Engine Flush at $124
Now I've had older cars that I enjoyed maintaining and have not kept up with the advances made to these newer cars, so I have no idea if this is really worth anything or not, which is why I am asking the group - Isn't this the kind of stuff that should be included in the maintenance that I get when my Maintenance Minder alerts me that maintenance is due? Or has Acura instructed their service advisers to start trying to sell services like this to boost their bottom line?
I brought my car in for B Service at $130. I just got tires so I told them "no rotate". I realize $130 is a rip off for a visual inspection of certain items but at least I have the B service documented in my records for when I sell the car (which is fine with me).
So I get a call back saying the car was done and after the visual inspection they recommended the following:
1. Brake flush at $133
2. Pollen Filter for Internal Cabin Replacement at $108
3. Coolant Flush at $90
4. Top Engine Flush at $124
Now I've had older cars that I enjoyed maintaining and have not kept up with the advances made to these newer cars, so I have no idea if this is really worth anything or not, which is why I am asking the group - Isn't this the kind of stuff that should be included in the maintenance that I get when my Maintenance Minder alerts me that maintenance is due? Or has Acura instructed their service advisers to start trying to sell services like this to boost their bottom line?
06-14-2006, 04:07 PM
#2
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It's probably the dealership/service department that requires the service advisors to sell the unnecessary (i.e. before Acura's recommended interval) services. Either that or the service advisors are paid on commission for such upsells.
Besides, what is a top engine flush, and how is it different from a coolant flush or oil change???!
You see a lot of this at Jiffy Lube and chain stores, which I avoid like the plague since my independent Honda/Acura service guy beats them on price and service (he has actually said "you don't need..." on a few things, such as 60% worn rear brake pads, on other cars I've brought to him).
Besides, what is a top engine flush, and how is it different from a coolant flush or oil change???!
You see a lot of this at Jiffy Lube and chain stores, which I avoid like the plague since my independent Honda/Acura service guy beats them on price and service (he has actually said "you don't need..." on a few things, such as 60% worn rear brake pads, on other cars I've brought to him).
06-14-2006, 04:13 PM
#3
oicu8sum2
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Thanks for the reply Will.
Yes, I'm used to that kind of stuff at Jiffy Lube not the Acura Service Department. I have done flushes before on my older mustangs and changed air filters and oil filters, etc.
Everything is $100 nowadays (sigh)...
A top engine flush as they state removes the carbon deposits from the valves and the interior of the engine block (smile)...
I would be out right at $600 if I agreed to all those flushes and filter changes....
Yes, I'm used to that kind of stuff at Jiffy Lube not the Acura Service Department. I have done flushes before on my older mustangs and changed air filters and oil filters, etc.
Everything is $100 nowadays (sigh)...
A top engine flush as they state removes the carbon deposits from the valves and the interior of the engine block (smile)...
I would be out right at $600 if I agreed to all those flushes and filter changes....
06-14-2006, 04:44 PM
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Unfortunately, not all dealers stay with the guidelines given to them by Acura or other manufacturers. There were a couple of threads about selling steering fluid flushes as well.
The "top engine flush" sounds like it serves the same purpose as the cleaner/additive that my mechanic and a couple of dealers charge $10 per bottle to add, 1 bottle with no labor.
The cabin filter replacement you were quoted sounds high, too.
If your car is operating well and you are not at the recommended interval stated in the manual and MID guidelines, just tell the dealer "no thanks" to unnecessary "maintenance" and spend the money on mods and/or your choice of beverages and friendly companionship...
The "top engine flush" sounds like it serves the same purpose as the cleaner/additive that my mechanic and a couple of dealers charge $10 per bottle to add, 1 bottle with no labor.
The cabin filter replacement you were quoted sounds high, too.
If your car is operating well and you are not at the recommended interval stated in the manual and MID guidelines, just tell the dealer "no thanks" to unnecessary "maintenance" and spend the money on mods and/or your choice of beverages and friendly companionship...
06-14-2006, 10:31 PM
#5
Could someone elaborate on this 'top engine flush'? I have some build-up in my TB and a little in the intake manifold. If there is something I can put in as an additive or spray in the intake etc, What is it???
I would like to get back to bare metal on the upper manifold without taking it apart again..
I would like to get back to bare metal on the upper manifold without taking it apart again..
06-14-2006, 10:38 PM
#6
One on the right for me
You will probably see more expensive rates at ind. shops than at chain stores. And recently I have noticed a lot of dealers have jumped on the bandwagon with offering engine flushes, etc. to keep their sales on par with the quick lubes.
TL shouldnt need anything except oil, AF and cabin filter for a good while.
TL shouldnt need anything except oil, AF and cabin filter for a good while.
06-14-2006, 11:08 PM
#7
Dude....those pollen filters are only $16.25 from ebay? Is it worth that much more just for somebody to slap it in for you? You are getting ripped man!
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Acura...temZ8002435657
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Acura...temZ8002435657
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06-18-2006, 11:49 AM
#9
Originally Posted by RC51TOFUMAN
how often do you replace the pollen filters?
06-18-2006, 02:33 PM
#10
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Service advisors are paid comission, thats how they earn a living. That extra work they recommended is just that, an upsell. You can choose to do it or not. They just "ADVISE" you 
Also keep in mind that labor rates vary throughout the country, so that $100 in California, could be $40 in Georga. Our labor rate here in the bay area is $160 per hour! 
Also keep in mind that labor rates vary throughout the country, so that $100 in California, could be $40 in Georga. Our labor rate here in the bay area is $160 per hour!
06-18-2006, 05:00 PM
#11
Originally Posted by sellnACURA
Our labor rate here in the bay area is $160 per hour!
And I thought Lexus was bad in our area! WOW! You are very right though....it is a market to market thing. Comparing Indiana rates to Cali rates is like comparing apples and oranges. You make a very good point here. If one wants to compare that type of thing....they should also look at the cost of housing. I am sure what is a nice $175,000 home here in Indiana is a total DUMP in Cali price comparison wise...at least from what I see on those "flip this house" shows on Discovery, ect. Houses they value at $350,000 would sell here in Indiana for around $60,000 - again...apples and oranges...but you are talking about like structures/square footage/conditions/ect. Just a different market and cost of living. BUT...on the other hand....how does that come in comparison to where I can get an A-Spec rim sent from AofE in California, pay freight on it, and still beat the pants out of pricing from local Indiana Acura dealers? And all the people here in Indiana can say is...well...thats under our cost. (ya...right!) Why would a dealer in such an inflated market as you describe, be able to sell nationwide and beat the crap out of your local dealers so badly? I mean...it truely makes em look bad it is such a margin gap. Explain...please. I have always wondered about this...and your very intelligent observance has made me wonder even more? Is it just greedy dealers that dont care about losing sales over keeping their margins up or what? It seems a small margin on something is better than no margin on NOTHING...as people tend to buy from Ebay Acura dealers offering fair pricing? Do they not realize internet sales happen now?
06-18-2006, 05:06 PM
#12
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The market on the internet is a very competive one! Keep in mind that all Acura dealerships pay the same for the part from the factory. It just depends on how much profit they are willing to take. Because there is no labor involved in the part sale, it's just profit above cost. So the dealers out here in Cali might just whore out the part, and show the factory that they can sell units. The dealers out there in Indiana might want to hold more gross profit, since they don't have a huge market. Hope that explains it a little better. 
06-18-2006, 05:33 PM
#13
Originally Posted by sellnACURA
The market on the internet is a very competive one! Keep in mind that all Acura dealerships pay the same for the part from the factory. It just depends on how much profit they are willing to take. Because there is no labor involved in the part sale, it's just profit above cost. So the dealers out here in Cali might just whore out the part, and show the factory that they can sell units. The dealers out there in Indiana might want to hold more gross profit, since they don't have a huge market. Hope that explains it a little better.
06-18-2006, 07:18 PM
#14
WDP Director of R & D
Originally Posted by oicu8sum
It's been a while since my last post and though not a frequent poster, I just had to post here to get some feedback on my experience with Acura today.
I brought my car in for B Service at $130. I just got tires so I told them "no rotate". I realize $130 is a rip off for a visual inspection of certain items but at least I have the B service documented in my records for when I sell the car (which is fine with me).
So I get a call back saying the car was done and after the visual inspection they recommended the following:
1. Brake flush at $133
2. Pollen Filter for Internal Cabin Replacement at $108
3. Coolant Flush at $90
4. Top Engine Flush at $124
Now I've had older cars that I enjoyed maintaining and have not kept up with the advances made to these newer cars, so I have no idea if this is really worth anything or not, which is why I am asking the group - Isn't this the kind of stuff that should be included in the maintenance that I get when my Maintenance Minder alerts me that maintenance is due? Or has Acura instructed their service advisers to start trying to sell services like this to boost their bottom line?
I brought my car in for B Service at $130. I just got tires so I told them "no rotate". I realize $130 is a rip off for a visual inspection of certain items but at least I have the B service documented in my records for when I sell the car (which is fine with me).
So I get a call back saying the car was done and after the visual inspection they recommended the following:
1. Brake flush at $133
2. Pollen Filter for Internal Cabin Replacement at $108
3. Coolant Flush at $90
4. Top Engine Flush at $124
Now I've had older cars that I enjoyed maintaining and have not kept up with the advances made to these newer cars, so I have no idea if this is really worth anything or not, which is why I am asking the group - Isn't this the kind of stuff that should be included in the maintenance that I get when my Maintenance Minder alerts me that maintenance is due? Or has Acura instructed their service advisers to start trying to sell services like this to boost their bottom line?
Anyway, big thing is how long are you expecting to keep the car and would you expect to trade in or sell privately..? Showing that maintenance was performed is always good when selling. But you can save yourself money by not listening to the dealer and just following the owners manual. Most folks (and used car managers) will more than accept this as a "job well done" by you if looking at your car for purchase. The overall appearance and "perceived" shape of your car will make a much greater impact on a buyer than a signed piece of paper saying the B1 service was performed "by the dealer" at 20K....
As for:
#1. Brake fluid is susceptible to absorbing water and rusting/pitting master and slave brake cylinders. Does this happen often? No. If your brake system has not been "open", IE major brake repairs requiring bleeding etc. then a fluid flush is not required for at least 60K miles or 5 years min.
#2. Sure this needs changed if you never have. I modded the panel behind my glove box so I could do this at my leisure. Even with only 15K on my 04 the filter was pretty dirty. I would hope the $108 cost includes both the filter and labor. My guess the job pays one hour of labor.
#3. This is something that many dealers now recommend every 2 years. I would say - "However", once again if you haven't had the system open, had to add/mix coolant etc., then I would once again hold off for around the 50-60K mile range. The big thing here is to ensure the system is clean and free of contaminants. Aluminum engines are picky about coolant, that is why you don't want to mix or mess with the system if not need be.
#4. NEVER!! Trust me folks. This is a huge money maker for any shop but you risk major internal engine damage.. If a dealer remotely told me my Acura engine "required/needed" this process, I would immediately ask "WHY!".. If the engine is running properly and not burning a quart of oil every 1000 miles it should never have a carbon build up issue within the combustion chamber - Even if your not running the recommended premium gas!! Their is more documentation of shops performing this process and causing engine damage than not. Not to mention the crap they spray into the cylinders just runs down past the rings into your oil. Bottom line, pull a few plugs and check for carbon.. If your plugs are completely fouled then the cylinder most likely is as well. BUT, One could near guarantee you wont find this on your 3G TL.... Also, like the old Nissan V6's, if Acura had a carbon issue they would have a machine that used something like walnut shells to blast out the carbon - then vacuum/remove them prior to engine start. Just not required for new clean burning engines....
Overall, #2 should be done in my mind every 15K depending on driving conditions (see the Acurazine garage for DIY/mods for this process and do it for the price of a $15-40 filter).
#1 and #3 are good preventative maintenance yet do not need to be performed near as often as most shops recommend. #4 is something that unless required in the owners manual, I would never do. Just use good fuel and/or add a good product to your gas tank every 10K miles etc..
My 8+ years as a dealership mechanic taught me many things. The most important was all the ways they deceive and attempt to rip off the customer.
06-18-2006, 07:50 PM
#15
Originally Posted by KJSmitty
From what evidence I have in this post I assume you have a 2004 TL and are at ~25-30K miles?? My next question would be if you purchased and have service performed at David McDavid (That's where I purchased my 04)?
Anyway, big thing is how long are you expecting to keep the car and would you expect to trade in or sell privately..? Showing that maintenance was performed is always good when selling. But you can save yourself money by not listening to the dealer and just following the owners manual. Most folks (and used car managers) will more than accept this as a "job well done" by you if looking at your car for purchase. The overall appearance and "perceived" shape of your car will make a much greater impact on a buyer than a signed piece of paper saying the B1 service was performed "by the dealer" at 20K....
As for:
#1. Brake fluid is susceptible to absorbing water and rusting/pitting master and slave brake cylinders. Does this happen often? No. If your brake system has not been "open", IE major brake repairs requiring bleeding etc. then a fluid flush is not required for at least 60K miles or 5 years min.
#2. Sure this needs changed if you never have. I modded the panel behind my glove box so I could do this at my leisure. Even with only 15K on my 04 the filter was pretty dirty. I would hope the $108 cost includes both the filter and labor. My guess the job pays one hour of labor.
#3. This is something that many dealers now recommend every 2 years. I would say - "However", once again if you haven't had the system open, had to add/mix coolant etc., then I would once again hold off for around the 50-60K mile range. The big thing here is to ensure the system is clean and free of contaminants. Aluminum engines are picky about coolant, that is why you don't want to mix or mess with the system if not need be.
#4. NEVER!! Trust me folks. This is a huge money maker for any shop but you risk major internal engine damage.. If a dealer remotely told me my Acura engine "required/needed" this process, I would immediately ask "WHY!".. If the engine is running properly and not burning a quart of oil every 1000 miles it should never have a carbon build up issue within the combustion chamber - Even if your not running the recommended premium gas!! Their is more documentation of shops performing this process and causing engine damage than not. Not to mention the crap they spray into the cylinders just runs down past the rings into your oil. Bottom line, pull a few plugs and check for carbon.. If your plugs are completely fouled then the cylinder most likely is as well. BUT, One could near guarantee you wont find this on your 3G TL.... Also, like the old Nissan V6's, if Acura had a carbon issue they would have a machine that used something like walnut shells to blast out the carbon - then vacuum/remove them prior to engine start. Just not required for new clean burning engines....
Overall, #2 should be done in my mind every 15K depending on driving conditions (see the Acurazine garage for DIY/mods for this process and do it for the price of a $15-40 filter).
#1 and #3 are good preventative maintenance yet do not need to be performed near as often as most shops recommend. #4 is something that unless required in the owners manual, I would never do. Just use good fuel and/or add a good product to your gas tank every 10K miles etc..
My 8+ years as a dealership mechanic taught me many things. The most important was all the ways they deceive and attempt to rip off the customer.
Anyway, big thing is how long are you expecting to keep the car and would you expect to trade in or sell privately..? Showing that maintenance was performed is always good when selling. But you can save yourself money by not listening to the dealer and just following the owners manual. Most folks (and used car managers) will more than accept this as a "job well done" by you if looking at your car for purchase. The overall appearance and "perceived" shape of your car will make a much greater impact on a buyer than a signed piece of paper saying the B1 service was performed "by the dealer" at 20K....
As for:
#1. Brake fluid is susceptible to absorbing water and rusting/pitting master and slave brake cylinders. Does this happen often? No. If your brake system has not been "open", IE major brake repairs requiring bleeding etc. then a fluid flush is not required for at least 60K miles or 5 years min.
#2. Sure this needs changed if you never have. I modded the panel behind my glove box so I could do this at my leisure. Even with only 15K on my 04 the filter was pretty dirty. I would hope the $108 cost includes both the filter and labor. My guess the job pays one hour of labor.
#3. This is something that many dealers now recommend every 2 years. I would say - "However", once again if you haven't had the system open, had to add/mix coolant etc., then I would once again hold off for around the 50-60K mile range. The big thing here is to ensure the system is clean and free of contaminants. Aluminum engines are picky about coolant, that is why you don't want to mix or mess with the system if not need be.
#4. NEVER!! Trust me folks. This is a huge money maker for any shop but you risk major internal engine damage.. If a dealer remotely told me my Acura engine "required/needed" this process, I would immediately ask "WHY!".. If the engine is running properly and not burning a quart of oil every 1000 miles it should never have a carbon build up issue within the combustion chamber - Even if your not running the recommended premium gas!! Their is more documentation of shops performing this process and causing engine damage than not. Not to mention the crap they spray into the cylinders just runs down past the rings into your oil. Bottom line, pull a few plugs and check for carbon.. If your plugs are completely fouled then the cylinder most likely is as well. BUT, One could near guarantee you wont find this on your 3G TL.... Also, like the old Nissan V6's, if Acura had a carbon issue they would have a machine that used something like walnut shells to blast out the carbon - then vacuum/remove them prior to engine start. Just not required for new clean burning engines....
Overall, #2 should be done in my mind every 15K depending on driving conditions (see the Acurazine garage for DIY/mods for this process and do it for the price of a $15-40 filter).
#1 and #3 are good preventative maintenance yet do not need to be performed near as often as most shops recommend. #4 is something that unless required in the owners manual, I would never do. Just use good fuel and/or add a good product to your gas tank every 10K miles etc..
My 8+ years as a dealership mechanic taught me many things. The most important was all the ways they deceive and attempt to rip off the customer.
06-18-2006, 08:35 PM
#16
I've been Canonized ;)
Originally Posted by KJSmitty
From what evidence I have in this post I assume you have a 2004 TL and are at ~25-30K miles?? My next question would be if you purchased and have service performed at David McDavid (That's where I purchased my 04)?
Anyway, big thing is how long are you expecting to keep the car and would you expect to trade in or sell privately..? Showing that maintenance was performed is always good when selling. But you can save yourself money by not listening to the dealer and just following the owners manual. Most folks (and used car managers) will more than accept this as a "job well done" by you if looking at your car for purchase. The overall appearance and "perceived" shape of your car will make a much greater impact on a buyer than a signed piece of paper saying the B1 service was performed "by the dealer" at 20K....
As for:
#1. Brake fluid is susceptible to absorbing water and rusting/pitting master and slave brake cylinders. Does this happen often? No. If your brake system has not been "open", IE major brake repairs requiring bleeding etc. then a fluid flush is not required for at least 60K miles or 5 years min.
#2. Sure this needs changed if you never have. I modded the panel behind my glove box so I could do this at my leisure. Even with only 15K on my 04 the filter was pretty dirty. I would hope the $108 cost includes both the filter and labor. My guess the job pays one hour of labor.
#3. This is something that many dealers now recommend every 2 years. I would say - "However", once again if you haven't had the system open, had to add/mix coolant etc., then I would once again hold off for around the 50-60K mile range. The big thing here is to ensure the system is clean and free of contaminants. Aluminum engines are picky about coolant, that is why you don't want to mix or mess with the system if not need be.
#4. NEVER!! Trust me folks. This is a huge money maker for any shop but you risk major internal engine damage.. If a dealer remotely told me my Acura engine "required/needed" this process, I would immediately ask "WHY!".. If the engine is running properly and not burning a quart of oil every 1000 miles it should never have a carbon build up issue within the combustion chamber - Even if your not running the recommended premium gas!! Their is more documentation of shops performing this process and causing engine damage than not. Not to mention the crap they spray into the cylinders just runs down past the rings into your oil. Bottom line, pull a few plugs and check for carbon.. If your plugs are completely fouled then the cylinder most likely is as well. BUT, One could near guarantee you wont find this on your 3G TL.... Also, like the old Nissan V6's, if Acura had a carbon issue they would have a machine that used something like walnut shells to blast out the carbon - then vacuum/remove them prior to engine start. Just not required for new clean burning engines....
Overall, #2 should be done in my mind every 15K depending on driving conditions (see the Acurazine garage for DIY/mods for this process and do it for the price of a $15-40 filter).
#1 and #3 are good preventative maintenance yet do not need to be performed near as often as most shops recommend. #4 is something that unless required in the owners manual, I would never do. Just use good fuel and/or add a good product to your gas tank every 10K miles etc..
My 8+ years as a dealership mechanic taught me many things. The most important was all the ways they deceive and attempt to rip off the customer.
Anyway, big thing is how long are you expecting to keep the car and would you expect to trade in or sell privately..? Showing that maintenance was performed is always good when selling. But you can save yourself money by not listening to the dealer and just following the owners manual. Most folks (and used car managers) will more than accept this as a "job well done" by you if looking at your car for purchase. The overall appearance and "perceived" shape of your car will make a much greater impact on a buyer than a signed piece of paper saying the B1 service was performed "by the dealer" at 20K....
As for:
#1. Brake fluid is susceptible to absorbing water and rusting/pitting master and slave brake cylinders. Does this happen often? No. If your brake system has not been "open", IE major brake repairs requiring bleeding etc. then a fluid flush is not required for at least 60K miles or 5 years min.
#2. Sure this needs changed if you never have. I modded the panel behind my glove box so I could do this at my leisure. Even with only 15K on my 04 the filter was pretty dirty. I would hope the $108 cost includes both the filter and labor. My guess the job pays one hour of labor.
#3. This is something that many dealers now recommend every 2 years. I would say - "However", once again if you haven't had the system open, had to add/mix coolant etc., then I would once again hold off for around the 50-60K mile range. The big thing here is to ensure the system is clean and free of contaminants. Aluminum engines are picky about coolant, that is why you don't want to mix or mess with the system if not need be.
#4. NEVER!! Trust me folks. This is a huge money maker for any shop but you risk major internal engine damage.. If a dealer remotely told me my Acura engine "required/needed" this process, I would immediately ask "WHY!".. If the engine is running properly and not burning a quart of oil every 1000 miles it should never have a carbon build up issue within the combustion chamber - Even if your not running the recommended premium gas!! Their is more documentation of shops performing this process and causing engine damage than not. Not to mention the crap they spray into the cylinders just runs down past the rings into your oil. Bottom line, pull a few plugs and check for carbon.. If your plugs are completely fouled then the cylinder most likely is as well. BUT, One could near guarantee you wont find this on your 3G TL.... Also, like the old Nissan V6's, if Acura had a carbon issue they would have a machine that used something like walnut shells to blast out the carbon - then vacuum/remove them prior to engine start. Just not required for new clean burning engines....
Overall, #2 should be done in my mind every 15K depending on driving conditions (see the Acurazine garage for DIY/mods for this process and do it for the price of a $15-40 filter).
#1 and #3 are good preventative maintenance yet do not need to be performed near as often as most shops recommend. #4 is something that unless required in the owners manual, I would never do. Just use good fuel and/or add a good product to your gas tank every 10K miles etc..
My 8+ years as a dealership mechanic taught me many things. The most important was all the ways they deceive and attempt to rip off the customer.
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