Just woundering what most are taking..I like the idea of the paddle shifter but in all honesty will I use it much?? I have an A-spec now but dont use the tiptronic much just when I "race". I was also told by the dealer that the manual is so much more aggressive, responsive "a monster" I was sold, I am picking it up on Friday...I was just woundering what you all thought.

 

The manual has more gears. And not only does it have more gears, but the top-most gear is still a bit shorter than that of the Automatic. The performance gains are quite substantial. Not to mention the Manual gearbox is more efficient than the auto for less power loss...

07 5AT vehicle speed at 7000rpm in each gear
- 1st: 45mph
- 2nd: 76mph
- 3rd: 114mph
- 4th: 177mph
- 5th: 250mph

05 6MT vehicle speed at 7000rpm in each gear
- 1st: 41mph 9.8% gain
- 2nd: 65mph 16.9% gain
- 3rd: 94mph 21.3% gain
- 4th: 128mph 38.3% gain
- 5th: 165mph 51.5% gain
- 6th: 208mph 20.0% gain over 5AT's 5th gear

Of course I am completely biased. My wife and I own 4 vehicles and they are all manual...

 

So what you're saying is the auto has a higher top speed. That's what I thought...

 

LOL! You wish.

Unfortunately both cars are aerodynamically limited to the same speed. That is a nice way of saying they don't have enough power to top out the gearboxes. Either way, any Auto is POS IMO!

Hmmmm, I wonder how much power it would take to push a 3G TL to 250mph (or even 208mph for that matter)...

 

On a side note, I tried to find out once and for all if the TL had a speed limiter on my monthly trip home. I had it floored on a 3 mile downgrade and was just north of 140mph when I passed a CHP. He must've been asleep and I decided to drive the speed limit the rest of the way home.

 

Cars that come with ZR rated tires from the factory usually don't have a speed limiter as they are already aero limited below the minimum 180mph rating. Or maybe I should say that speed-limiters typically set to match the OEM tire ratings...

 

i just think about stop and go traffic, and my laziness.i would never get a luxury car in 5-6 speed. evo,sti,civic swap manual all the way, the tl i just wanna cruise and have the option to shift when i want to..........

 

I agree but there's another thread where some people won't believe that the TL has no governor so I thought I would prove it on the downhill grade with a pic from my cell phone.

 

imho- honda/acura has one of the best short throw 6MT. i think you made an awesome choice w/ the MT.

 

For 208 mph TL would need about 640 HP and for 250 mph about 1100 HP. I am not sure that it would be possible with FWD.

 

In a race environment, the 6-speed is considerably quicker off the line than the automatic, unlike some cars where it's closer or in fact the auto might have a slight advantage (think 335i).

On the other hand, for general street driving, the auto will kill the stick - for this car and all others...

The automatic is quicker during typical street driving because the driver needn't taper off on the gas before the shift, pause to allow rev-match during the shift before reengaging the clutch, and smoothly add gas to get back to the desired acceleration. The auto driver just stays on it while the auto power shifts, using simultaneous clutch release (current gear) and engagement (next gear), and relying on the torque converter to smooth the action.

The auto will also shift down faster than even a good driver with a stick can do it.

If you spend 98% of your driving time just driving around (even sporty driving), and 2% of your driving time racing, then the auto will be quicker 98% of the time. They are simply faster and more responsive than sticks in anything but race conditions.

I know, I know. My mom told me never to discuss religion in polite company, and stick guys (including me) worship the shift lever and clutch, but facts is facts. If you in your stick TL and your evil twin in his automatic equivalent both leave a light at your normal pace (with a 100-yard wall between you so that neither of you know what the other is doing), then he will emerge car-lengths ahead and moving away - effortlessly - ten times out of ten.

I'm about to start sniffling. I'm enamored with our 3.5 liter 6-speed, but as these new autos just get better and better, I may have to join the Dark Side with our next car.

Bruce

 

I really wanted a stick but the wife can't drive a stick, so it will be an automatic. But I really like to have full control of what gear I'm in.

 

Thanks for this unbiased explaination. I have been trying to explain this here for a long time. Most stick drivers don't want to hear it and want to race for proof.

 

The daily stop and go traffic nowadays on the highway dictates one should get the auto ... therefore leaving us no options as becoming a mid-night racer where is a lot less traffic here in the bay area .. LOL

 

Fuck that...my 6MT will kick ass on A-N-Y auto with the same horsepower...if I'm wrong, you damn sure ain't gonna convince me in no lab or clasroom! There are plenty of theories that get trounced in "the arena"!! This is no exception! Bring it! I don't have Fast & the Furious dough to bet, but I will bet what I can that I will whip dat ass!! I mean it too! So far...so good...technical jargon is for the geek squad, I believe in the old "It ain't the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"!!! So come on with that chalkboard shit, I know some fellas that can tell you Ray don't play!!

I ain't mad, by the way, so don't misinterpret my words for hostility...I just drive a manual, I don't "live" in one (the book)...so ya gotta show me... !!

As for this argument of manual vs auto...I already produced the results that show what the people desire (Don't hate: MT = ):

https://acurazine.com/forums/acurazine-clubs-meets-15/meet-eat-2-cheddars-houston-tx-october-2nd-2004-sign-154982/

 

My other car is a stick, but I don't miss it in the TL as its 5AT seems very responsive to throttle inputs. I don't even bother with the SS mode.
I suspect that the 6M car just feels more responsive and visceral as a whole, however--I noted that difference between the 6M and 5AT TSX before the wife expressed the preference for an auto.

 

from what I've been told.. the 04-06TL in manual has LSD as well...

 

I have one of each. Mine is an '04 manual and my wife's is an '05 automatic. Her automatic is very good, no question about it. But my manual is both quicker and has more throttle response.

As for the speed of shifting in a drag race.. you do not wait for or attempt to rev match during upshifts when racing. BIG loss of time here. I used to do a lot of street racing (and some on the track) in my youth and with my 1966 SS396 Chevelle and its stock Inland Steel shifter (and close ratio M21 Muncie box), I could throw the 1-2 and 3-4 shifts in under 1/10th of a second. I would never attempt this with my TL because the shifter is no where near as strong as the Inland Steel unit. But I can and do shift my TL pretty quickly when the need or desire arises.

So it really breaks down to this. Which one do you prefer? Which one will give you the most joy and pleasure in the driving experience? Which one do you believe you can live with and still love to drive over the years of ownership? Yes, a manual will most likely last longer and there is far less to go wrong with a manual than an automatic. And yes, a manual requires less maintenance than an automatic. But it's still really up to your likes and dislikes.

For me, there is no question. It's a manual all the way. The 3G TL was meant to have one and it's a perfect fit for the car.

 

Nearly all BMW's, as well as the vast majority of high performance cars now have speed limiters. According to Road & Track, the TL's is 147. Take a look at the road test summary page found in the back section of any Road & Track. The electronically limited ones are marked with a "5". It's a bunch!
Has nothing to do with tires.

 

Agreed!

 

manuals are a dying breed. You're gonna have a helluva time selling it down the road.

 

Wow! You've certainly had your testosterone shots today!

Cool your jets and re-read my post. What part of "They are simply faster and more responsive than sticks in anything but race conditions." didn't you get?

My post clearly refers to "general street driving" and "typical street driving".

If your typical street driving is a drag race right out of your driveway, then you will in fact be quicker with your 6-speed - but you'll also be an idiot not long for this earth.

My bet is that you simply misread my post.

Bruce

 

You're entitled to your opinion and while in some areas of the country the resale is a hassle on 6MT TL's, I couldn't disagree with you more about them being a "dying breed". There will ALWAYS be people looking for and buying manuals in sports cars. Period. There are still sports cars that can't even be bought with AT. Purists will always want three pedals. From what research I have done, MT's are not declining in sales, they are simply outsold by AT's.

One other point...I can understand why the TL base 6MT is not so popular at resale, but it has yet to be proved when it comes time to trade/sell the TLS 6MT. Since the TLSis a much more 'sports-oriented' right car from the factory, IMO the resale will be the same or even higher with 6MT. (Of course that's only my opinion.) I know one thing for sure...the dealer lots in the Chicago area have as many 6MT TLS's as they have AT models available for sale. My dealer tells me they are having a very hard time keeping stock on the 6MT's, and they appear to be selling better than the AT TLS.

 

LOL...I am not on edge Bruce, I'm cool I assure you. For those that know me on the forum, or rather are used to me, they know that. Just talking smack is all! I will concede, however, that I misread your post. But keep that lil AT in the classroom on the chalkboard where it belongs. LOL!

 

Take a trip to the dragstrip and count the number of fast stick shift cars. You can probably count them on one hand. Add a turbo to the mix and the gap becomes wider. That's about as real world as you're going to get.

 

I would like to add I just don't think the stick shift goes with a car like the TL. To me it's not a sporty car and the benefits of a stick just don't outweigh the hassle. I get in my TL and want to get from point A to B in semi luxury and not think about driving. My fast car is an auto (with a 3,800 stall)also because it's much faster that way. If I owned a semi fast boy racer car like a Mustang/EVO/WRX I would have a stick.

 

Other than that autos typically have fewer troubles over their lifetimes than sticks (ignoring TLs from a couple of years back), I fully agree with all this. It's what you prefer that counts.

Bruce

PS - Tell me about your Chevelle! I bet you did better in your street races than at the track. Those cars were tough to launch off a typical drag strip starting line at the time. Which engine? Gears? How were the ETs and speeds?

 

WOW....so many great replies. An interesting topic to say the least. I went with the Manual and i am sure I wont be disapointed. I used to own an integra MT and loved it. I do not feel that MT are a dying breed alot of my friends own MT's and insisted that I get one. MT's imo are for "drvers" people that what to get more than just going from point A to B. having the controll, "feeling" the car. (corny know).....thanks everyone for the replies!! cant wait to change my sig.

This site is so great!!!

 

There ya go!

 

Hey, it's a religion, so people have strong reactions.

It's now quite clear that the fastest transmissions available today are automatics - and now I'm talking about racing. Sticks are still faster in most cars for most types of racing, but these new autos now available are really impressive.

Although the 6-speed auto in the new BMW 335i is a very fast "traditional" automatic (with torque converter) that's generally a bit quicker than its stick sibling, that only shows how far along you can bring "old" technology. The new crop of converter-less autos now available from Volkswagen-Audi, BMW, Ferrari, et all are a great deal faster than their stick siblings in a race (straight line or road course), and tend to lose very little to a regular auto in terms of smooth "quickness" when you're just driving around.

As an example, that soon-to-be-copied-by-everybody Volkswagen-Audi DSG box is unbelieveable. Faster than any manual in a drag race, plus smooth as silk on the street.

I'm an old codger who loves the visceral feel of clutch pedal and snick-snick lever (Honda excels in this regard), but the writing is on the wall.

Pisses me off.

Bruce

 

I'm afraid so. Had a 1998 Integra GSR with MT that I traded for an '01 CL Type "S", which didn't have an MT available. The whole time, I wished for a manual, and the e-brake to be in the proper position (not on the floor). Bought an '05 TL 6MT, and really loved it until getting some arthritis in my clutch knee.
Just bought an '07 TL Type "S" auto, and it is soooooooooo good!
It has more torque, which negates some of the advantage of the manual. The '07 is also leaning much more towards high tech/luxury, rather than sport. The paddle shifters are nice, though not a manual for sure.
Lastly, threads are popping up about low trade in value of the 6MT's. Indeed, some dealers don't want them at all.
I don't like it, but they are a dying breed IMO.

 

The 03 CL had a 6 speed didn't it?

I've test driven two automatics and briefly one 6 speed.. I still don't know which transmission I want when I buy my car.. I have an accord 5 speed right now, because I like driving and I drive 100 miles a day the manual is more fun - it let's me play a little and interact with the car, rather than just sitting there with my hands on the steering wheel I get to choose the gears and play with the AWSOME SUPER POWER OF 130HP FOUR CYLINDER RAWRR!! ... (hehe).

But on the opposite side, I have some traffic in the mornings during the last 10 minutes of my commute, and some spots on the way home, so it makes want an automatic. The other thing is resale value; while there are certainly people who want a 6 speed in a TL *most* TL buyers are not looking to shift in a car like this..

So i'm torn

Maybe someone can make an easy to swap auto/manual trans, just two bolts and swap it out when you feel like it =p

 

Looks like I got picked apart a bit there, but I stand by my statements. As for the commenter's remarks that noboby could ever shift a manual in under 1/10th of a second, I guess he never had the pleasure and honor of watching the late Ronnie Sox from really close up.. as did I.

Hey there Bruce, how's it going? Happy belated July 4th.

My remarks about autos and manuals and life expectancy, I am just going on my own experiences and observations. Basically, there is just about nothing in a manual (inlcuding the clutch assembly) that is going to go wrong as long as the design is solid, the installation is to spec, and it is operated properly and with knowledge.

My Chevelle was ordered new by me to my specifications. It had the L34 360HP engine with a 4-bolt main block, Holley 660 single feed carb, and the medium rise cast iron intake. The cam was the same as that which was installed in the 427 390HP engine of the same year and was a hydraulic unit with .4615" intake lift and as I recall (hope this is right), 280 degrees duration. This was the only year this engine was ever offered in any Chevrolet product. The transmission was the Muncie M21 4-speed close ratio box (2.20 first), and the pumpkin contained 3.73 Posi gears. I also ordered a rather rare option; sintered metallic brake linings. Incidently, I still have the original order form for this car.

Launching GM supercars of that day was not really that hard.. much easier than my 1988 Mustang LX 302CID. They came from the factory with traction bars, though GM called them trailing arms. I used 10" Mickey Thompson street tires with Monroe LoadLeveler rear shocks to counter the natural chassis twist to the right from engine torque.

After several years, I installed an R3310 780 Holley dual feed center pivot carburetor, Hooker equal length headers with Walker straight through mufflers, and stronger valve springs (LS6). I also reworked the ignition a little to gain full advance early on. Plus, if you are familar with Holley carbs of that time, you probably know about the little tricks with small bolts in the secondary throttle arm and easing up on the vacuum-operated secondaries.

Launching was done around 3000-3200 PRM with a little slipping of the clutch as the throttle was nailed. About 15 feet of some partial burning and the rest was pure acceleration. I never power shifted.. just speed shifted, since it was my daily driver.

In stock trim with tires and the aforementioned carb and ignition turning, it was good for sub 13.3's. After the headers and the 780 Holley, the engine really woke up and managed 12.8's. The stock exhaust manifold that Chevy used on their 396 Chevelles was VERY restrictive.. it was a "log" design if you know what that refers to.

Great car and strong as can be.. as were the rest of the GM supercars of the day. I remember a 1966 442 street machine running consistent 12.4's. You could set your watch to the guy.. he knew how to drive that machine. Saw some Goats hit the lower 12's. too.

 

Again, why would anyone want to have "control" over a 250hp semi luxury car? You save a couple tenths over the manual version in the 1/4 mile. Who here can properly heel and toe?? Many probably think they can when in reality the car would be faster around a course with an auto too. Who really gets excited over racing a mid 14 second car? I wouldn't admit to that.

 

Because I like cars.. with a manual you are "connected" to the car, you are in control of what the engine is revving to and what gear you're in - not what gear the auto thinks it should be in. I'm not saying the TL is a super fast race machine that has to have a manual, but for me a manual is more engaging to drive and makes it more fun. I'm a car guy - I love cars - and those who feel the same way as I do agree, a manual transmission connects you to the car. I'm not interested in a manual because of 1/10th second quarter mile difference or whatever, I want a manual because (for me) it's more fun to drive.

The AT has a nice feature - the sport shifting - but you can't really rev the car to 5k and drop it into first, you'd have to put it in neutral, rev it and then slam it to D and probably deal with the consequences down the road if you continue to do it.

As mentioned before it's all a matter of what you prefer, though the manual does come with a LSD and the nice brembos* (*subject to opinion) and I think it has less drivetrain power loss than the AT.

For driving excitement it's no question - manual for me; this is going to sound extremely cheesey but you get to know the car, you know what the engine sounds like when it's time to shift, you know what you can get away with (like a 6 - 3 drop and passing someone)

For comfort and convenience, i'd got with the auto, while it's still got the option to shift "manually" it doesn't have the full functionality of the 6 speed.

 

erm, go with, not got with.

 

I am a MT guy at heart, but had to choose AT b/c of 2 main reasons:

1- I bought at a dealer only auction, and had a choice of several different 04 TLs that were just off lease from American Honda Finance Company. It occured to me that the typical owner that would choose a 6MT would have beat the shit out of a lease. Generally, you have to assume a used 6MT TL that was leased, was driven a little harder than an AT. You have to think stereotypically sometimes. The nice old lady you wanna buy a used car from definitely doesn't choose the 6MT.

2- Since I buy wholesale and then sell retail, resale value and ease of sale are important things to consider. I would estimate (as a former wholesale car dealer) that for a luxury sedan like the TL, upwards of 75% of the potential buyers will not consider a 6MT in this car. I understand that on a site like this, we are all car enthusiasts and the 6MT is preferred, but unfortunately, the general buying public is not.

With that said, If I were buying new and resale value was less important to me, I would have gone 6MT all the way.

 

Well put...I couldnt agree more....

Less than 24hrs and counting

 

I understand what some are saying. There's no doubt manuals are more fun to drive. There was a time when I said I would never own an auto and now that I'm older I would not own a manual for my daily driver. Being that my faster car has a 1-turbo and 2-over 620lbs of torque, that too has to be an auto. Maybe I've just gotten old lol. I just look at the TL as a way to get from point A to B. I don't want to think about driving or being connected with the car. All I care about is the AC and the radio. It's not fun for me to drive so why bother with a manual. Besides that, after driving a highly modded 944 turbo with aluminum flywheel and VERY heavy 3 puck clutch for a year, my left knee has given up. Even in a car with a light clutch my knee will start to hurt after a few days of driving.

 

I am driving manual, but I chose it because of Brembo brakes, limited slip differential and high performance tires. Otherwise I would probably buy automatic. It is slower and thirstier, but I would prefer to relax my left foot after 40 years of clutching.

Speaking about modern automatics, they are quite different breed than their old predecessors, who were stilling considerable amount of power and shifting in exactly wrong moment. Main energy consumer was torque converter, then a bunch of gears rushing trough oil and at the end pump. All that stolen energy has to be dissipated trough the radiator, the gauge that manual transmission doesn’t require.

Things were gradually improved by locking torque converter, introducing all kinds of hydraulic regulators and at the end computers. On the other hand adding more gears did not help saving energy but was necessary in order to improve performance and especially marketing. TL’s automatic is close to the end of this line.

The newest automatics are completely different. Audi, WV and Porsche introduce computer presetting next gear, handled by two clutches. Fiat, Audi and Nissan have computer controlled variators. Some of them are actually robotized manuals, like BMW’s SMG. All of them has computer controlled classic clutch instead torque converter and classic gear pairs instead of planet gears in order to save energy. Also there are semiautomatics on racing cars, but they are more like motorcycle gearboxes, not synchronized and virtually useless for day to day driving.

BMW’s SMG inspires me to think about new project: robotizing TL’s manual, including clutch. It is feasible. Hydraulically operated clutch, drive by wire system, excellent synchronization and power steering makes it even easier. Small computer, some hydraulics, few switches, shifter pedals, lots of development and here it is – TL SMG. I just wonder - would anybody else like to have it if it is not too expensive?