dangles

Ok I've been reading a TON on this site lately and have learned a TON about the 2006 TL I bought a few days ago. AMAZING site! So THANK YOU ALL in advance for putting together so much great info.

I will be going to pick up the supplies for the 3&4 pressure sensor swap as well as the o-ring for the PSP intake hose (first morning after I bought the car I noticed the "whining" - which is what brought me here!).

I'll also at some point be swapping out the transmission filter and PSF. The car has 106k miles on it so I'm just going to switch out all the fluids now since I don't know how it was kept before I got it. "Fresh" start so-to-speak

Anyway my question is regarding ATF selection. And before you jump in just to tell me to use the search function, know that I already have. The problem I've run in to is that most of the FANTASTIC advice I've come across for ATF seems to be coming from members who race (or are at least far more performance-minded than I am). I'm speaking specifically to threads posted by IHC, RR, Majofo and Inaccurate. They all have some fantastic threads about this stuff but they all seem to be more racing-minded (as best I can tell anyway... could be wrong). They all recommend either Amsoil or Redline Racing (in some form).

So my question is this:

For somebody who uses their TL as an everyday vehicle, are those options (Amsoil, RL) overkill?

FWIW I plan to ease into the transition and start out doing a single drain/fill every 1k miles or x3, then commence the "3x3 every year or so" routine.

Amsoil isn't as expensive so I think I would lean toward that. Any advice on the specific iteration? The 3 I've found are:

Signature Series Multi-Vehicle
Signature Series Fuel Efficient (website specifically states GM, Ford, Toyota)
OE Multi-Vehicle

Any other critiques/advice you can offer is much appreciated.

-Chris

bp_spets

I personally used the OEM Honda DW-1 fluid, its an improvement over the original Z1 fluid.

The amsoil should work fine if thats what you want, I'd use the Signature Series Multi-Vehicle one. In retrospect I should have probably gone for the Amsoil myself, but I didn't think about it at the time.

buzzkill911

+1

I got my '06 TL a year ago and it's my daily driver. I've been doing frequent drain and fills with DW-1 and happy with the transmission's performance under normal conditions.

erdoc48

For mine (also an 06 with 96K miles on it)- I first did the 3 x 3 change ~ 55K miles- I used Castrol Multi Import formula that was Z-1 compatible (so approved for Honda vehicles). Since then, I've stayed with the same formula (have done two or three 1 x 3 changes with the same fluid) and only recently did a 1 x 3 change with the high mileage version of this fluid. I did the 3rd/4th gear switches ~ 65K miles or so. My transmission shifts flawlessly (not harsh and not sloppy either). I also use mine as a DD, and am very easy on the gas (no abrupt starts when driving).

GKinColo08TL

+1 for DW-1


On a related note, was the timing belt service done, if not bro, git er dun.

pohljm

Dw-1 is fine. I run a mixture of that and type F redline

dangles

Hey thanks for the advice, guys.

I have noticed a bit of a shudder between 3rd and 4th two or three times since I got it (I'm assuming this is the shudder referenced over and over again here). I can't reproduce it, though. That being the case, should I still opt for the DW-1? I seem to recall few places where the I Hate Cars guy said that fewer/no FMs is better ("Use only a Dex III, Dex VI, or a mix of Dex III and Type F fluids.."). He seems to know a thing or two Does the DW-1 meet that criteria? Another guy said it is only "marginally better" than the older Z1 crap. Since I've noticed the shudder I don't wanna take any chances. My wife was pissed about how much I spent to begin with. She'd kill me if the transmission crapped out. Lol.

@gkin... TB/WP have not yet been done but I worked that into the deal. The dealership is sending me a check to pay for the job and said if I take it back there they'd give me a loaner car while the work is being done. I think I'm gonna have them check/adjust the valve clearance while they're in there.

@pohljm... How do you do your changes (in what proportions)?

LaCostaRacer

Welcome Dangles!

You have certainly done your searching and research. You probably already know this but the transmission holds more fluid than a normal 4 qt ATF change. If you just do a normal 1x3 replace, you would be well served going straight to the Redline Type-F- that's what I would do in your shoes today.

If you're going to do the full 3x3, then you might want to mix between ATFs more. There is a long thread that talks about the ultimate mixture. I think I would stick with Redline Type-F with a few quarts of DW1. Working on your car gives you additional flexibility about the interval between changes for the full transfusion approach of a 3x3. I would space it one month between changes so you can check the magnetic plug for any meaningful wear.

Again, welcome to the forum. Your wife might also hate how much time you can spend here to- just a heads up on that one.

dangles

Thanks for the welcome!

I seem to remember reading somewhere that it is advisable to "ease into" the switch from OEM to the aftermarket fluids. I think it had something to do with allowing the onboard computer to learn the new fluid more gradually or something like that? The plan was to do an initial 1x3, then a few more spread out 1000 miles apart until the old stuff was mostly gone. But you're saying to just go right for the 3x3 all in one day? Or 1x3 (month), 1x3 (month) 1x3? Just want to make sure I understood you correctly.

As far as the mixture, I do remember skimming through that thread but again it seemed more geared toward high-performance stuff. Not to mention there was a CRAP-load of info for somebody who doesn't know much about cars! So what you're saying is that if I ease into it with the multiple 1x3 changes I would just go straight to 100% redline? Should I then maintain that for the life of the car or drop down to a mixture for subsequent 3x3 changes every 30-60k?

I get lost in the controversies way too easily. I'm an indecisive person so when there seems to be good arguments on both sides I just stall out.

My wife already gets on me about another forum I frequent so I'm used to it

topdollr

RedLine D4 is working well for me. I just got my TL and did a drain and fill with RL type R but noticed a shudder from 3 to 4 so I did another drain and fill with D4. Running smooth now. I will wait another 1k miles or so before doing another drain and fill with D4

DiamondJoeQuimby

iTrader: (2)

Another vote for OEM

dcmodels

That would be my own recommendation, rather than all-at-once.

This is debated on many different forums, for different cars: GM, Ford, etc. not just on this forum. In my opinion, the problem is that replacing the old ATF *quickly* allows the new ATF, with new detergents, to re-suspend any deposits from the old worn-out ATF, so that the *new* ATF becomes an abrasive slurry, which quickly damages the solenoid bores, the pressure drops, and the clutches wear, and the trans is toast.

But slowly (less frequent drains) introduces less detergent at one time, causing less re-suspension of old deposits, and then with each new drain-and-fill, you flush out those deposits. My own personal recommendation is:

1x3 at zero miles
1x3 at 200 miles
1x3 at 1000 miles
1x3 at 2000 miles (optional) the TL is 1x3, my RDX is 1x4 for each drain (so 50% total)

then 1x3 yearly (regardless of miles) or at 15K miles. But its your decision. And please note that I drive a 2009 RDX, and use a mix of RedLine D4 and RedLine Racing/ LW at 50:25:25% - its the wife's car so hardly is raced.

350

iTrader: (4)

I use a blend of Redline Type F and D4 and daily drive it. It's not rough at all and shifts better than it used to.

Scottwax

DW1 works fine for me, although I might add some D4 or Type F into the mix now that most of the crappy Z1 has been flushed out.

For the shudder, Lube Guard makes an anti-shudder additive that is supposed to be really good.

LaCostaRacer

Definitely ease into the process. I don't believe you actually have to do a 3x3 personally. The 3x3 is only needed after an emergency situation when you need to use some ATF and don't have the proper stuff. There are lots of people on the forum that think a 3x3 is what you need to do but I'm not one of them.

What I meant to convey is wait some time like a 1000 miles or more between changes if you want to do the 3x3. For example, it would be efficient to replace the ATF every oil change for next 3 oil changes.

I hate cars

I think it needs to be brought up that introducing the fluid slowly has gotten a little out of control. I originally suggested that when we had a poster with over 100k on the original fluid. It's not necessary as long as you change the fluid at reasonable intervals.

The only reason for introducing it slowly is because the fresh detergetns (whether it's OEM or aftermarket) can break off varnish or clutch material or whatever and clog valves. You want it to clean slowly instead of having big chunks of material floating around. But again, this is not necessary, you won't have much if anything to clean and flake off as long as the flui has been changed at a reasonable interval.

If your TL has 80-100K+ and this is your first ATF change, a single drain and fill with 1,000 miles or so in between is a good idea. For anything else, you can do all 3 changes back to back.

About the fluid and in order from most "slippery" to least:

Stock Z1 and ATF+3 have similar frictional properties.

DexIII (Redline D4, Amsoil ATF, and a TON of other brands have this stuff) is "in the middle" of the friction modifier range. If there was a universal fluid, this would be it. It can be syntetic or non synthetic and viscosity is usually in the "normal" range, around 7cSt. This fluid would be fine without mixing.

Dex VI This is factory fill in a lot of new cars. This not only specifies a FM level close to Dex III but it specifies a thinner viscosity. All Dex VI fluids will have a decent base oil since the cheaper, crappy base oils won't make the cut for this spec. The TL could easily be run on this fluid, especially for those in cold climates but it will work fine for any climate in the US. This might be my next experiment, DexVI mixed with Type F. This fluid would be fine without mixing.

Type F This is usually marketed as a racing fluid since it has no FM and firms up shifts since it's not as "slippery". This was not a "racing" fluid originally, but it's marketed that way now. Due to the quicker shifts, this fluid can significantly reduce clutch wear.

DW-1 seems to be frictionally somewhere between Z1 and Dex III (that's a guess) and viscosity is between Dex III (and Z1) and Dex VI.

dangles

Thanks, IHC that really cleared up a lot for me about the different fluid options. The car is new to me and has 106k miles on it. I have no idea if the previous 2 owners kept up with PM so I got the dealership to throw in most of the 105k PM and I'm doing all the fluids.

350

iTrader: (4)

Dex III is even listed in the owners manual as acceptable but says it may have harsher shifts. If it actually caused harsh shifts or damage Honda wouldn't risk putting that in the manual. So I'd recommend at minimum switching it to Dex III (Redline D4 seems to be the crowd favorite) and maybe do it again with Type F if you want it a little firmer.

guitarplayer16

iTrader: (8)

I use DW1 and have been happy with it.

dcmodels

The cSt viscosities at 100C degrees and 40C degrees, and the Brookfield cP at -40C degrees, are from the manufacturer MSDS (manufacturer safety data sheet), shown in GREEN color, except for mixtures of different viscosity ATFs. The other viscosity values are computed. All viscosity values are in cSt (centiStokes) or cP (centiPoise).

Redline LW = Redline Racing Lightweight synthetic ATF.

The Honda MSDS for DPSF does not list viscosity, so the viscosity for an aftermarket replacement fluid is shown, manufactured by Penrite (Australian company) . It is NOT an ATF, and is listed because DPSF is now required in the rear differential of various Acuras that previously required the use of Honda ATF-Z1 which *is* an ATF.

GM OEM Dexron-VI is a semi-synthetic, while the Valvoline GM licensed product is a full-synthetic. Afton Chemical Corp. (additive chemistry) and Petro-Canada (base-oil) developed the OEM GM semi-synthetic product. Petro-Canada manufacturers the OEM GM Dex-VI for sales through GM dealers. Petro-Canada holds the number one license for Dex-VI ATF, number J-60001.

In the following table, the GREEN numbers are officially published by the manufacturers - all other numbers are computed values.
120C/ 100C/ ..40C/ .0C/ -20C -40C cSt at Centigrade/ Brookfield cP @-40C
..../10.00/ 53.70/ 405/ 1868/ 15,000 = RedLine Synthetic Racing 100% p/n 30304
5.52/ 7.70/ 34.00/ 196/ .728/ ...... = GM OEM Dexron III-H (Petro-Canada)
5.31/ 7.58/ 38.75/ 285/ 1325/ ...... = RedLine Racing 62.5%/ LW 37.5% (Synthetic)
..../ 7.50/ 38.26/ 276/ 1249/ ...... = RedLine Racing 61.0%/ LW 39.0% (Synthetic)
5.36/ 7.50/ 34.00/ 205/ .798/ .5,200 = RedLine D4 (for Honda ATF-Z1) (Synthetic)
5.22/ 7.40/ 36.30/ 251/ 1100/ 10,040 = Mobil-1 Synthetic, Dexron III-H/ Mercon
..../ 7.20/ 36.00/ .../ ..../ ...... = Castrol Dexron III-H
5.12/ 7.06/ 29.49/ 158/ .553/ ...... = Honda OEM ATF-Z1 (discontinued)
..../ 7.00/ 37.00/ 294/ 1477/ ...... = Penrite HDPS (semi-Synthetic for Honda DPSF)
4.87/ 6.93/ 34.87/ 255/ 1187/ 11,250 = RedLine Racing 50%/ LW 50% (Synthetic)
5.07/ 6.83/ 25.09/ 110/ .327/ ...... = Honda OEM DW-1 (Idemitsu Lubricants America)
4.50/ 6.40/ 30.70/ 210/ .931/ .4,500 = RedLine D6 (for GM Dexron-VI) (Synthetic)
..../ 6.00/ 29.80/ .../ ..../ ...... = GM OEM Dexron-VI (Petro-Canada)
4.25/ 6.00/ 29.50/ 214/ 1006/ 12,500 = Valvoline licensed GM Dexron-VI (Synthetic)
3.50/ 4.90/ 23.20/ 165/ .781/ .7,500 = RedLine LW 100% (Synthetic) p/n 30314

NOTE 1: the computed viscosities, were computed using the following web site. I do not know just how accurate the web-site computations may be. Do be aware that the accuracy of the above computed values depends upon the number of decimal digits used, to make the computations. The web site below has various computation tables, and the number of decimal digits used in the computations, depends upon which table is used to make the computation. This can make a difference of 2 or 3 percent in the computed values.

Computations using this web site are NOT the same as taking an average between the viscosity of two different ATFs - and I do not know which method is more accurate. I know only that the telephone help line at REDLINE Inc. states that they use the following web site.
http://widman.biz/English/Calculators/Graph.html

NOTE 2: the 61% mixture of RedLine Racing ATF, is simply to provide a viscosity of 7.50 cSt at 100C degrees, for the sake of comparisons. The 62.5% Racing ATF mixture, is easily achieved by mixing 2.5 quarts of Racing with 1.5 quarts of LightWeight. Again, the viscosity computations were performed using the link in NOTE 1 above.

NOTE 3: Dexron VI requires a different approach, compared to conventional ATF formulation. Rather than beginning with a 7.5 cSt viscosity fluid and allowing a viscosity drop to 5.5 cSt, the Dexron VI fluid requires a starting viscosity of less than 6.4 cSt and a final drop to no less than 5.5 cSt.
Red Line D6 will begin at 6.4 cSt, and will drop to no less than 6.1 cSt over its usable life, according to RedLine literature. I've no idea how long is the "useful life" (for RedLine fluid). But the Dex-VI license specification is 42K cycles, using the GM cyclic shifting-test. This compares to the Dex-III H requirement of 32K cycles, and the Dex-III G requirement of 20K cycles. Note that Red Line D6 is not officially licensed by GM.

NOTE 4: Dexron III is no longer manufactured or licensed by GM. Well, sort of. While Dex-III is no longer officially licensed by GM to any aftermarket company, GM actually still has Dex-III manufactured, for sale by its dealer network. Only it is not called Dex-III, nor is it sold under the previous Dex-III GM part numbers. "H" was the last version of Dex-III specified by GM.

The exact same Dex-III H formulation is still manufactured by Petro-Canada, and is sold under a new GM part number. It is labeled as Manual Transmission and Transfer Case fluid. GM does not recommend the use of Dex-VI as a Dex-III replacement for manual transmissions and transfer case use. GM recommends Dex-VI only as a replacement/ upgrade for Dex-III (and Dex-II), for use in automatic transmissions.

NOTE 5: RedLine ATFs give a GL4 level of gear protection, according to RedLine literature. However, do not misunderstand this GL4 protection-rating. This does not mean that RedLine ATF can be used where a GL4 gear oil is required. This is especially important to note when a GL4 hypoid-gear oil is required.

Gear oil and ATF contain different additive packages. But this does mean that RedLine ATF provides a higher level of gear protection in a transmission, transaxle, or transfer case, than conventional ATF oils, where an ATF is specified.

NOTE 6: The Optimal Percentage of Racing ATF [is 65%]
https://acurazine.com/forums/showthread.php?t=834299

---eof

Scottwax

I think the average person thinks firm = harsh. Probably why Honda/Acura specified Z1 ATF since it makes for very smooth shifts...which also mean slippage and higher ATF temps. Firm, quick shifts (but not slam-BANG GM shift kit shifts) are better for the car in terms of transmission life.

I hate cars

Agreed Scott.

DCModels, thanks for the viscosity info. Are you extrapolating the 40c and 100c temps to fill in the blanks? There's a great viscosity calculator if you google widman viscosity chart. I would like to see how it compares to your math. If some of those figures are right, I'm making the right choice by going with D6 and LWRacing.

dcmodels

Yes, NOTE 1 in my post gives the link for the WIDMAN viscosity chart/ calculators, which is what I used for the non-manufacturer specified/ calculated values. I have no idea how those charts/ calculations *work* as they are definitely different from simply extrapolations or using an average when computing viscosity of two mixed/ combined fluids with different viscosities.

dangles

Ok I'm once again confused...

(from the RoadRage Journals)

This is from RR's Amsoil trials in 2005. Is that just old info or what? Anybody know if he's still using Amsoil?

1KLRTOY

I think their talking about engine oil not transmission fluid, there's no spark plugs in any transmission I've seen!

dangles

Haha... I left out part of the quote plus another quote that makes more sense...

Try now...

That should be more clear

wilztlxs

iTrader: (8)

If you're really worried, you should use DW-1 like others have recommended.

I personally ran Redline Racing with Racing Lightweight for 20k miles, then switched to a mixture of Racing, Lightweight Racing, and D4 for 25k miles. My most recent change that I did a couple weeks ago was Racing, Lightweight Racing, and D6.

I haven't had any issues with any of those and my TL is my DD.

I hate cars

I wish road rage were still here. However, those articles were written long ago before we began experimenting with type F. We talked about it then Inaccurate tried it and I tried it shortly after him. You wouldn't think going from an ATF with more FM than most to one with no FM would work so well. This was before we discovered the reasons these transmissions were falling so fast which was partially due to too much FM in the stock fluid.

Everything RR posted was true to the best of his knowledge at the time. Now we know that less FM means less wear. The Type F works, I've been running it for years and about 50,000 miles with nothing but good results. I'm going to try D6 and LWRacing next time I swap the fluid but that's for a completely different reason.

I also believe if you run Type F you must have good (newer) pressure switches. There also seem to be a handful of these transmissions that don't like it. I believe these transmissions have a shift timing issue and with the stock fluid the clutches slip and the driver never knows the difference. With the Type F, one set of clutches grabs enough in the bind to cause what for all intents is a flare but it's not from slippage if that makes any sense.

It's for that reason I usually recommend a DexIII or even a DexVI fluid because I don't feel like explaining it most of the time lol and you never know if that person is going to be one of that handful that does not like the Type F.

The DexIII and DexVI are safe and don't have to be mixed. You may not get all of the benefits of Type F but you also have nothing to worry and you're miles ahead of the stock fluid.

dangles

Thanks for that explanation, IHC. I suspected that was maybe old info.

Since I tend to fall on the "bad luck" side of things I may just stick with a DIII or VI option. I've already felt the 3-4 shudder and if there's one thing I can't afford right now it's a blown tranny, which means I'd probably end up being "that person."

dcmodels

Is there a specification for the pressure switches? there is for the solenoids, as ohms. Other than simply replacing the switches, then how to know if the new one is better than the old one? and how to know if the *new* one is defective? planning to replace my own pressure switches soon, on an RDX (not a TL), at 45K miles first time.

cam_2

Good questions. I've never seen a spec. Post 56 in the Very Interesting Conversation thread (https://acurazine.com/forums/showthr...=721508&page=2) describes the switches. Posts 537 and 557 in the same thread (https://acurazine.com/forums/showthr...721508&page=14) have specs, pressure tests, and teardowns. Not sure where the poster got the spec pressures - I haven't seen them in the service manual.

oraclem20

This is something I came up with when I thought I was going to do the whole 3x3 change in the course of a month. If buying at once, this will get you closest to all numbers desired(not including how this mixture mixes with degraded z1 or dw1 because this number will never be used. Even d6 degrades half a point)
You will need:
3quarts Lightweight
5quarts Racing
4quarts D6


2.5quarts of Lightweight, 3.5 of Racing, 4 quarts of D6 will be used. (.1 quarts to spare if your car puts out perfectly 3.3 each time.


This puts you at 60% racing fluid, 100%(near as possible) Redline, and at 6.955 VI. pretty closely balanced between the old dw-1 and z1.{7.06-6.83}


If you want to mix one batch up for a 100,000 service interval, stay nearer to oem feel than high racing, and be on quality fluid, that's the blend I would do.
Any slight overage in viscosity will be taken care of by mixing with the degraded z1/dw-1


My 2c :-)

cam_2

OP, I went with Castrol Transmax Import Multi-Vehicle for my daily driver with 142k. $63 shipped for 3 gallons on Amazon. For me, it was more important to get the old fluid replaced with something new and cheaper rather than a higher-cost and performance fluid or a custom mix. Once the old fluid is mostly gone I'll worry about a longer-term fluid. Also, I couldn't justify spending $11/qt only to dispose of it later because the fluid in the torque converter isn't accessible.

mau108

I've started using Valvoline MaxLife® DEX/MERC ATF in the TSX. I had used it in my old beater the Nissan Maxima and have had no issues with it.

I just did a drain and fill in the TSX and shifts are quick and smooth. It had a mixture of DW-1 and Z1 prior to this.

I will be using the Valvoline in the RDX as well.

cummins guy

New guy here and new to owning an Acura.... Awesome site and many of you sound well educated with these cars !! (Do I get points for the brown nosing)
Where is the best place to purchase the pressure switches and or part numbers, maybe? I just purchased (2nd owner now) a 04 with 104,380 miles on it and have no clue if the original owner replaced any of the switches or if and when tranny fluid was replaced ...

Slpr04UA6

^here you go. Part #'s are in there.

https://acurazine.com/forums/3g-tl-2004-2008-93/very-interesting-conversation-my-transmission-builder-tl-721508/

You can order the switches through one of our Vendor's here on the forum.

dangles

I just did my switches yesterday. Super easy - even for nontechnical types. Finding a 22mm wrench was the hardest part I didn't notice much of a difference and still get a slight shudder every now and again but I haven't driven it much since then or changed the fluid yet. Hoping that does the trick.

TAZ1811

Mobil 1 Synthetic ATF. Only the best!

I hate cars

What makes it the "best"?

TAZ1811

1. It's readily available at way more stores
2. Inexpensive
3. Universal
4. API certed
5. Full Synthetic
6. You can find documentation and tech specs on it, unlike fluids Honda makes.