hopsterguy

All the oil topics on this board got me interested in AMSOIL synthetic which lead me to their site... and this: http://www.amsoil.com/amsoilfacts.htm

Is this 25,000 interval really reasonable???

I'd love to hear some technical responses... Road Rage, are you out there?


I guess it would mean sending oil samples in to the lab to confirm what's going on in the engine along the way...

-Steve

cvajs

kills me to see such crap.

ok, RR has enlightened us with the knowledge that todays manufacturers of dino oils have come a long way since synth was 1st introduced, and now dino oils can be very close to synths.

amsoil sells only slightly higher per qt. than other quality oils. does this 25k mile oil sell for $100 per qt?


why even bother? there is no (none, zero) scientific proof that dino oils, full synth oils, or additives will make you car run/last longer (if you have any proof please post it)

some cars out there with over 300k miles and ran only on dino oils and today have no issues.

hopsterguy

Yeah, from what I've seen with testing, AMSOIL is a better quality oil... able to protect against wear better in wear tests, and has higher shear strength than others, etc. Said to be on a quality level with the Redline products... which I typcially hear of being changed at 10-12,000 interval limits. I was shocked myself to see a 25,000 recommendation.

-Steve

Road Rage

Wear rates are good predictors of length fo service, so there is ample evdence that synoils can extend life. OTR truckers routinely see a million miles before overhaul.

The UOA's I have seen* do not support a 25K change intervalfor any oil, syn or not. That would be best case in a car that consumes no oil, and is driven mostly on the highway. Also, keep in mind that that incudes 1 oil filter change, and make-up oil for that change. Pus any makeup oil from volatility, which Amsoil reduces but does not eliminate.

Amsoil used to contan Group V bi-basic esters - it s now a PAO like most of the other true GIV synoils, and I know of no other PAO that supports 25K intervals. Recall in 1975 or so when Mobil1 was introduced, they claimed a 25K service life. They either have becme greedy since then, or ther tribology has yielded new recommendations. Perhaps both.

Yet, the Mercedes oil algorithms have shown intervals in the high teens, but that is generlly because Euro-cars have greater oil capacity - certainly the Porsche 911 type vehicles do, with their double-digit dry sumps.

*You can see for yourself at bobistheoilguy.com.

hopsterguy

Thanks RR, I thought that most likely to be the case.

Thinking about later going to readline after using the Autocraft synblend I have... stuff is darn hard to find at 5w-20 though. So far found two internet dealers that carry it at that viscosity. Most of them ignore that viscosity in their lineup.

BTW, very nice link you provided there. Time to read.

Thanks!

-Steve

Chuck

Don't the viscosity improvers wear out relatively fast with dino oils? That's one of the benefits of Mobil 1, since it has little or no VIs.
In any case, I wouldn't go over the recommended change intervel in the owner's manual while the car is still under warranty.

gizzsdad

[QUOTE=cvajs]


there is no (none, zero) scientific proof that dino oils, full synth oils, or additives will make you car run/last longer (if you have any proof please post it)


Actually - although I can't put my hands on them, I have seen several things:

1) A BMW engine completely torn down and laying on a bench after 1,000,000 miles w/ synthetic oil, and EVERY part still measured within original factory specs.

2) There is a commercial (Mobil 1?) that says engines torn down after 200,000 miles show virtually NO wear.

For me - it is really a 'peace-of-mind' thing. It costs me an extra $12 to use Mobil 1 each change, and while it's probably not necessary, it makes me feel better to have the superior start-up protection and high temp stability of synthetic. I originally changed because my Dad took me to his factory and showed me two identical gear boxes, on identical production lines, one with synthetic oil - one with dino. You could put your hand on the synthetically lubed gear box, the other was too hot to touch.

FWIW - I change mine every 4K. Probably overkill, but while I am sure the base stock is good for much longer than the dino base, I am not convinced that the additives last any longer in the synthetic oil. Just my .02.

Road Rage

Why not use the motorcraft? I have never heard f Autocraft -

Chuck

Just use the Mobil 1 0w-20

TL_6SPD

Amsoil is only good if you go over 3k intervals. You can't do that safely with just dino oil. I go 6k on Amsoil and I can even go longer per tests at Blackstone Labs.

Test prove that Amsoil and other synthetics like Mobil 1, Redline can outlast dino much longer and saev you money.

Amsoil also runs cleaner, and will help a car pass emmissions. My exhaust is clean inside the muffler and tips.

Blackstone labs have the proof. And also maxima.org has a good spreadsheet that proves synthetics are better.

scottosan

I have gone 7500 miles between oil changes on every vehicle that I have owned. I have never had any issues. When I was in the military, I was in charge of records for 91 fleet vehicles including ford contours, dodge stratus's, and ford F-150's the government standard for oil changes was every 7500 miles regardless of driving conditions and we were required to use recycles oil when we got oil changes. In a 4 year period, we had no engines blow and got 130,000 miles on many of them before we sent them to government auction. The driving conditions in dallas are pretty harsh too.

TL_6SPD

Most engines will last 130k with that type of oil. But its for people who want to go more than that. Sludge builds up rapidly after 5k on dino oil. That is why NYC Taxi cabs, use Mobil 1, and like here the city vehicles use Amsoil.

Send a test with 7500 miles on a oil change on that oil, you will not get great results back.

The best dino oil to use is Castrol GTX. It is actually better than its Syntec side in lab tests.

cvajs

i thought RoadRage squashed the notion that dino oils are no good??? he said that todays dino oils compete very well with synths, why would there be a sludge problem after 5k miles ???

TL_6SPD

The site that RR posted has a lot of good info. You can ask why there if you wish. Too long for me to explain.

EluSiOn

does anyone use catrol syntec oil 5w-20? its great for honda cars!

thegabrielles

Well, in most cases it is not the oil that becomes a problem as much as the filters ability to hold all the contamenants. Most oils can last consideably longer than 5-7k miles but the filters become full and then are bypassed. I run synthetics in all my cars and have for a long time, but there is NO WAY I am going to go mre than 5-7k miles. I change my oil regularly at 3-5k miles depending on what kind of driving I have done on the oil.

Road Rage

Many Amsoil dealers (when i read their sites) follow that line of thought, because it makes the difference between their products and old technology mineral oils look greater - today's best mineral oils all use hydrocracked base stocks, which Castrol calls "synthetic". With their reduced polymolecularity and low wax levels, they are the equal of synoils of years past. (Amsoil's XL-7500 is a good example of a GIII hydrocracked "synthetic", but grossly overpriced. With the improved additives packages across the board, they most certainly can easily surpass 3k miles. The entire 2004 TL MiD is based on that fact. You are quiute correct that some synoils can surpass that performance, but many here still change out way before it is necessary.

If your exhaust is clean with Amsoil, it will be clean with anything - that just proves your engine's rings are still good. The reduced emissions level POSSIBLE with some synoils is the result of its lower volatility - mixing effects with causality can get one into logical trouble.

hopsterguy

Haha... I'm Bush and You're John Kerry. :P

TL_6SPD

Well, the exhaust wasn't clean at 1000 miles, it was black with the factory stuff. After using Amsoil for many miles, they have become very clean. I had my parents switch to Amsoil (since I am a dealer) and now there exhaust is starting to become cleaner looking as well. My father gets over 30 mpg in town driving in a 01 Altima (that car wasn't rated for that). LOL. He even noticed his car runs much smoother. We all run 6k intervals for now to meet warranty guidelines. After the warranty is out, I might push to 10k.

I use to be a die hard Mobil 1 fan till I used Amsoil and saw the difference. Its definitely worth a try for people who have never used it.

synoil

First let me say that I'm an Amsoil dealer and have been so since 1991. I used several different synthetics in the late 70's and 80's before I tried Amsoil. All were good oils and certainly superior to
the dino oils out there at the time. As Road Rage has said, the new class III dino oils which are hydrocracked and alot purer in regard to less wax and other detrius are very good oils and are darn
close to PAO synthetic performance.

One must note that oil basestocks, synthetic or dino, do NOT wear out. Additives do. When the additive package wears out the oil cannot carry dirt in solution causing deposits on engine surfaces and interupting the hydrodynamic oil protection the oil provides between metal surfaces.
Worn viscosity improvers allow the oil to shear back and not protect the engine surfaces from wear as well. For example the 10W-30 wt oil you have started with starts acting like 10wt protection wise
when the polymer viscosity improvers are broken and shorter than their original length.
So my point here is that looking at oil choices means examining different componants of the oil/additive blend.

Again the purer the basestock oil and the higher the quality of the additive package in the mix makes
for the best oils. I would not consider a dino oil unless it was a class III. Even better a semi synthetic where class III dino oil base is mixed with synthetic basestock. Throw in a high class set of additives and you have an excellent lubricant.
Now for the ultimate lubricant I stick my guns with a pure synthetic (PAO) basestock and an excellent additive package. The higher the quality ($$$) of the additive package in any oil make the oil last longer. Amsoil uses Lubrizol additives in most of it's blends (at least the last time I asked)
and was the only user of Lubrizol's highest quality additives for many years. When the series 2000 oils came out in that year Amsoil had to go to Germany and pay 3X what they were paying for the additives in the 0W-30 (35K) product.

This is why Amsoil guarantees their class IV oils for 25-35K or one year. They use the best additives available. Just change the filter every 12.5K/6months, add whatever volume you lose in the filter (this refreshes the additive package) and away you go. They have been doing this since 1972 and have billions of test miles to prove it. Amsoil is the only company I know of that is trying to sell it's customers LESS product!! The company is totally quality driven and has succeeded tremendously being the largest "independent" synthetic blender on the planet. Fifty million gallons blending capacity per year. Nothing close to Mobil but I said independent, meaning smaller, owned by one man company.

I visited the company in '92 at the 25 yr convention, toured the facility, met the tribologists, additive vendors, oil filter manufacturer, et. They all professed the quality commitment of Amsoil. I believed them and no I have not bought the Brooklyn Bridge. Oh by the way, the president (US) and all the secret service vehicles protecting him use Amsoil as specified by the engine manufacturer/modifier of these heavily armoured vehicles.

There are many fine lubricants out there for us to choose from. There is an elite class of products that are close in performance/protection and Amsoil IMHO leads this group of excellence.
You will pay more for it and you get what you pay for.

Road Rage, I agree the Amsoil 7500 lineup is overly expensive. For less than $.50/qt extra you get the Amsoil full synthetic 25K oil. This forum owes you a note of thanks for your contributions and knowledge to this forum.

Thanks all for listening,
Craig
'04 TL
WDP/Parchment/Navi/5AT

Road Rage

Craig: I have to commend you for having written one of the least defensive and least "over the top" pposts I have ever seen from an Amsoil dealer. Usually, they are thinly-disguised sales pitches. Good job!

I agree with nearly everything you have said. Add packs make or break an oil, once the base stock is of a high enough quality. I do not support the contention that GIV PAO's are necessarily the best, though (I'll comment later). Amsoil uses quality additives as you say - all the oil companies buy theirs from specialists like Lubrizol, although some (like LE) develop their own as well, as trade secrets to give exceptional performance.

Now, about the 25K blanket recommendation from Amsoil. First, blankets concern me. Few people know the mechanical integrity of their cars, and unless an owner does an analysis at the 12.5K filter change (plus the makeup oil), there is the risk of running the oil too long and depleting the add pack well in advance of the 25K mark. Now, that adds greatly to the TCO, and drops the value proposition of Amsoil's oil change interval substantially.

Second, the UOA's I have seen for Amsoil in the over 20K OCI do not look all that great - many were marginal at best, several I would classify as the "change it NOW" variety. The 0-30 Series 2000 OCI's at BITOG have not been outstanding - certainly at $8+ a quart, they should be! Generally, ar reduced mileage, the Amsoil "regular" oils, like ATM, look very good, but with an effective life of 12-18K. Some people use the bypass filtering and run at low RPM - many here run the cars at higher RPM, which changes the equation a lot.

There is a topic that tribologists understand, but there is not a lot of knwopledge among laymen, or Amsoilites, Red Liners, etc. That has to do with the "uptake" of the additive package by the base stock - in that regard, some GIV and GV base stocks are actually quite a bit mort finicky than mineral oils - and the result is that the add packs, esp the AW and AF (anti-wear/anti-friction) compounds do not become efffective at much less than 200 degF, and show non-linear performance below that, and even in the SOA (safe operating area) or the "area under the curve". Did you know, for example, that paraffinic oils in the GII range are particularly effective in "cozying up" to the add packs? There are over 37,000 paraffinics as I recall, so the potential combinatons are mind-boggling. But some companies have done the work, and have found that sopecific GII parafinnics in combination with GIV PAO's actuually can propvide effective AW/AF at temps below those of pure PAO's! Yes, that's right!

It should be obvious to the reader, then, that opportunities to blend synthetics and the mineral oils that "make the most sense" is an area not known to many people, and even to many lubrication engineers/product development engineers at oil companies. Anyone who has followe dsome of my recommendations may notice some "unconventional" or "relatively unknown" products being endorsed. Well, this is in part the result of my analyses of how an "ordinary synblend" could outperform a "pure synoil" in critical KPI's, including the ones most correlated with LONGEVITY (and now we are back at the 25K interval): TFOUT - thin film oxygen uptake - the KPI most associated with oxidation/thickening of the oil, and the depletion of the additive package. I am sure you will agree that once the TBN drops below 1.0, the oil is shot. well, the TFOUT is the best indicatoir I have seen of an oil's performance capability in this area, short of a UOA. So I look for oils that perform particularly well in this area - Amsoil does perform very well in this area, but I have seen better, and in a synblend - go figure!

So while a 25K interval is certainly possible, is it probable? That gets us into the slippery slope area, and the usual fall-back position fo Amsoil is their "performance guarantee". And unless Amsoil would care to let us all know how many people have applied for same, how many cases were acknowledged and granted, and how much was paid out, the thinking man has to scratch his head and say "And........."? In all my years of car ownershipl I have never seen a case where even a cheap mineral oil induced a lubrication failure, clear and inarguable. Are the clogged oil galleys and passages in the V6 Camrys the result of bad oil, bad design, bad service recommendation, or owner neglect? And when an owner is caught in the middle trying to figure out "who shot John?", who scatters and runs? That to me is the essence of the thing - the first principle, the basic tenet of Roman and Greek logic.

I would suggest that readers of this thread who are still hanging in there become members at www.bobistheoilguy.com, read up a bit, and look at the UOA's themselves, and decide for themselves if a 25K OCI is something they would be comfortable with. The fact that others are is really quite irrelevant, IMO.

Cheers, RR.

thegabrielles

Wow... seems like I need a lot more schooling to keep up with the pros... the pleasure about Forums is that there is always someone with more info than what you have. Of course sometimes it takes some translation to keep up!!!

Thanks for the info Road Rage...I'll just keep mutering along with 5k on synthetics though. Just kinda makes me feel better

synoil

Road Rage,
Thanks for the comment. I just like quality and will buy it wherever I can get it.

I joined the bobstheoilguy forum. Lots of great information there for us oil and filter guys.
Thanks,
Craig