Air Filter
12-09-2006, 09:21 AM
#1
AZ Community Team
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Air Filter
Here is the original airfilter from my 05 TL 6MT at 18K miles. I replaced it with another Acura OEM filter. This car was used in a residential suburbia area in MD, no real diverse conditions (i.e. dust, sand, construction,...) that would abnormally affect the filter. Regardless of what filter you use, it's good maintenance practice to replace them more often than the 30K mile recommended schedule in the Acura service schedule.
12-09-2006, 10:34 AM
#2
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Here in NYC, I've had to replace mine about every 10,000 or so.
Recently picked up the STP replacement at AutoZone for less than ½ the price of the OEM.
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Recently picked up the STP replacement at AutoZone for less than ½ the price of the OEM.
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12-09-2006, 12:21 PM
#3
On my last car ('99 Saturn) at around 40k miles, it started driving really poorly. Slow acceleration, rough idle, poor mileage. I knew the air filter "only" had 20k miles on it, but I replaced it anyway and the difference was night and day. I couldn't believe it; it felt like my engine power at least doubled and my mileage increased by 50%. The filter was that clogged after 20k. Now I'm a believer; I replace the filter every 10k miles. It's cheap insurance against poor engine performance, besides being a good idea in the dusty desert.
12-09-2006, 05:59 PM
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Originally Posted by DMZ
Here in NYC, I've had to replace mine about every 10,000 or so.
Recently picked up the STP replacement at AutoZone for less than ½ the price of the OEM.
.
.
.
Recently picked up the STP replacement at AutoZone for less than ½ the price of the OEM.
.
.
.
12-09-2006, 08:43 PM
#7
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Originally Posted by wolftag
I just replaced mine today too. I was a little surprised at the $32 price for the OEM filter. But it seems built very well, and appears to have 2 stages of filtration. I looked at a Fram filter and it didn't seem to be nearly as sophisticated. How does the STP filter compare?
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12-09-2006, 10:36 PM
#9
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Originally Posted by MTVtec
I have an AEM CAI. Do I still have an air filter like that?
Yeah you should have a cone man, just follow the pipe. I actually just changed mine today. I have a Fujita CAI and after 6 months it still looked good.
I used to change my OEM filter every other oil change and it looked dirty. I feel that the CAI filters are not as fine as the filters for the stock set-up; just holding them up to a light I can see the difference.
btw: I still have a brand new STP filter I am willing to give away. Since I slapped on the Fujita I have no need for the STP filter. If you live in the Lancaster/Exton/Philly area PM me, I'd give it to ya! ;-)
12-10-2006, 10:40 AM
#10
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I just replaced mine last week with a NAPA gold filter. It was only $20. I also did the cabin filter and it was only $21. My A12 service was due at ~27,000.
It it just me or does it seem stupid to need a screw driver to change an air filter?
Don
It it just me or does it seem stupid to need a screw driver to change an air filter?
Don
12-10-2006, 10:54 AM
#11
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Originally Posted by Desert_TL
On my last car ('99 Saturn) at around 40k miles, it started driving really poorly. Slow acceleration, rough idle, poor mileage. I knew the air filter "only" had 20k miles on it, but I replaced it anyway and the difference was night and day. I couldn't believe it; it felt like my engine power at least doubled and my mileage increased by 50%. The filter was that clogged after 20k. Now I'm a believer; I replace the filter every 10k miles. It's cheap insurance against poor engine performance, besides being a good idea in the dusty desert.
12-10-2006, 11:26 AM
#12
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Originally Posted by wolftag
I just replaced mine today too. I was a little surprised at the $32 price for the OEM filter. But it seems built very well, and appears to have 2 stages of filtration. I looked at a Fram filter and it didn't seem to be nearly as sophisticated. How does the STP filter compare?
The STP seemed to be well made.
12-10-2006, 11:37 AM
#13
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Originally Posted by KilroyR1
It it just me or does it seem stupid to need a screw driver to change an air filter?
Maybe they felt they had to do it the way they did it due to clearances under there?
12-10-2006, 12:15 PM
#14
Originally Posted by shayan
Well, looks like I'll be changing mine prettty soon. Im currently close to 32k, I bought the filter but just havent had time to replace it. How is ACDelco air filters?
12-10-2006, 04:18 PM
#16
Suzuka Master
Originally Posted by MTVtec
I have an AEM CAI. Do I still have an air filter like that?
12-10-2006, 05:46 PM
#17
Moderator
GM recommends every 50,000 miles...
But anyway, the air filter increases in efficiency as it loads up with dirt, so changing it too often may actually be harmful.
But anyway, the air filter increases in efficiency as it loads up with dirt, so changing it too often may actually be harmful.
12-10-2006, 08:05 PM
#19
Suzuka Master
Originally Posted by SodaLuvr
GM recommends every 50,000 miles...
But anyway, the air filter increases in efficiency as it loads up with dirt, so changing it too often may actually be harmful.
But anyway, the air filter increases in efficiency as it loads up with dirt, so changing it too often may actually be harmful.
12-10-2006, 09:47 PM
#20
Originally Posted by SodaLuvr
But anyway, the air filter increases in efficiency as it loads up with dirt, so changing it too often may actually be harmful.
12-10-2006, 09:56 PM
#21
Moderator
In short, as dirt loads up the air filter, efficiency will increase as the flow rates will decrease. As a result, filtration will improve at the expense of air flow. Of course, I don't suggest running your air filter until it's a chunk of dirt...at the same time, replacing it every 15-20k is a bit excessive. The key is to find the "sweet spot" between the two extremes...which is every 30-50k miles for most people.
Here was what my contact at GM, who's an engineer, told me:
Btw- Ford has been using a sealed "lifetime" air filter in the Focus for the last three or four years. It is an oiled box of filter material that has been designed to last (and has proven to last via SAE testing) 150-180k miles under most conditions.
Here was what my contact at GM, who's an engineer, told me:
I would say that most of the air filters we release these days as the OEM part will likely last for 100K or better. Like I mentioned, air filters will last far far longer than most people realize by their visual inspection. Only after all the pleats are bridged with dirt and starting to get caked with dirt do the flow decreases become excessive and the filtering actually improves with the addition of more and more dirt. Takes the wind out of people's sails that think they are doing something good by going to a K&N filter that lasts "forever". So do paper filters, virtually. For the price of a K&N you could buy enough paper filters to drive 500K and you would have better filtration to boot.
12-11-2006, 01:50 PM
#24
Suzuka Master
Originally Posted by SodaLuvr
In short, as dirt loads up the air filter, efficiency will increase as the flow rates will decrease. As a result, filtration will improve at the expense of air flow. Of course, I don't suggest running your air filter until it's a chunk of dirt...at the same time, replacing it every 15-20k is a bit excessive. The key is to find the "sweet spot" between the two extremes...which is every 30-50k miles for most people
I am now planning on coming out with a new air filter that has half of the stock surface area of the filter replaced with a solid plastic panel and advertising it as 100% more efficient than the stock filtration..............who wants to get on the group buy list!
12-11-2006, 01:53 PM
#25
Originally Posted by SodaLuvr
In short, as dirt loads up the air filter, efficiency will increase as the flow rates will decrease. As a result, filtration will improve at the expense of air flow.
Ahh, ich verstehe sehr gut. While your statement makes sense, I'm telling you that my Saturn had an air filter with 20k miles that was so clogged that it was causing the engine to idle very roughly, acceleration was very poor, and I was getting a third lower than rated gas mileage. At that point, I don't care what the "efficiency" or anything else about the filter. It needed changing and it was like instantly putting a supercharger in my engine, the improvement was that immediate and dramatic.
As I've said in prior posts, it probably makes more sense if you live in the desert. That happened while I was living in New Mexico. I live in Arizona now. I would NEVER buy a car with a "lifetime" air filter. That's a load of bull - at least in this part of the country. If you keep an air filter in your car longer than 75k miles, your car will die. End of story.
But back to your statement. Maybe you or someone else can answer a question I've had. I agree with your statement; it seems like air flow vs. the quality of filtration are direct tradeoffs. That is, if a filter had high air flow (e.g. K&N), then it must do a poorer job of filtering contaminents compared to a "standard" flow filter (e.g. Fram), which must do a better job of filtering contaminents. If the K&N and the Fram were the same size, I can't think of any way that there wouldn't be a direct trade-off between the two. That's why I've been hesitant to put a K&N in any of my cars. I don't want to potentially shorten the lifespan of the engine because of poor air filtration just to get a few extra HP. Is there something else I'm missing or some kind of voodoo I'm not thinking of that K&N does?
12-11-2006, 07:15 PM
#26
Moderator
SAE tested the lifetime air filter in the Focus and found that it lasted at least 150k miles even under the worse possible conditions.
I have a Saturn too. The filter was somewhat dirty after 25k miles, and after installing a new Fram AirHog, I wasn't able to discern any differences. YMMV.
I think you answered your own question...some people think that the K&N filters let through too much air, hence poorer filtration. But whether or not its enough to cause engine damage is debatable.
pohljm, as the filter loads up with dirt...you are reducing the FLOW RATE of the filter...this is unrelated to the surface area.
I have a Saturn too. The filter was somewhat dirty after 25k miles, and after installing a new Fram AirHog, I wasn't able to discern any differences. YMMV.
I think you answered your own question...some people think that the K&N filters let through too much air, hence poorer filtration. But whether or not its enough to cause engine damage is debatable.
pohljm, as the filter loads up with dirt...you are reducing the FLOW RATE of the filter...this is unrelated to the surface area.
12-11-2006, 07:47 PM
#27
Suzuka Master
Originally Posted by SodaLuvr
pohljm, as the filter loads up with dirt...you are reducing the FLOW RATE of the filter...this is unrelated to the surface area.
12-11-2006, 07:55 PM
#28
Moderator
I should've been more clear...the reduced flow rate is a result of a less porous media due to the dirt buildup...which allows it to filter more efficiently.
12-12-2006, 10:26 AM
#29
AZ Community Team
Thread Starter
I've read a few Internet posting both positive and negative on the effectiveness of the K&N filters. Personally I prefer the OEM or replaceable oil soaked paper aftermarket air filters.
On the efficiency of the air filters as they collect more debris, that is both true and false. Alot very much depends on the filter permability and the size of the particles it is designed to restrict. As most vehicle airfilters collect more debris, they do become more effective at the large particle collection.
However as the available surface area for filtering decreases due to collecting debris the air pressure difference across the air filter increases which causes the filter to suck in more smaller particles. Here the air filter is less effective and allows more small debris to enter the engine. Is this debris harmful, it's debatable since it depends on the size and filter material. I always err on the side of caution when it comes to maintenace and replace them sooner than later. Personally I think the theory that "new air filters cause more engine wear" is just a urban legend, I've never seen any reputable source for that claim.
A friend of a friend works for Catepillar engines and explained to me this is why most large heavy machinery engines have two stage airfilters. The first stage is for large/medium particles and the second stage is for the smaller particles. They also have pressure sensors to compare the differences across the filters to indicate a fitler is clogged, not only for reduction of fuel efficency but more importantly to prevent the engine from sucking through the filters the smaller partcles. He also said the smaller particles tend to create problems for diesel engine wear since they tend to become staticly charged as they go through the intake plenum then cling to metal parts as the air flow rapidly decelerates in the combustion chamber.
On the efficiency of the air filters as they collect more debris, that is both true and false. Alot very much depends on the filter permability and the size of the particles it is designed to restrict. As most vehicle airfilters collect more debris, they do become more effective at the large particle collection.
However as the available surface area for filtering decreases due to collecting debris the air pressure difference across the air filter increases which causes the filter to suck in more smaller particles. Here the air filter is less effective and allows more small debris to enter the engine. Is this debris harmful, it's debatable since it depends on the size and filter material. I always err on the side of caution when it comes to maintenace and replace them sooner than later. Personally I think the theory that "new air filters cause more engine wear" is just a urban legend, I've never seen any reputable source for that claim.
A friend of a friend works for Catepillar engines and explained to me this is why most large heavy machinery engines have two stage airfilters. The first stage is for large/medium particles and the second stage is for the smaller particles. They also have pressure sensors to compare the differences across the filters to indicate a fitler is clogged, not only for reduction of fuel efficency but more importantly to prevent the engine from sucking through the filters the smaller partcles. He also said the smaller particles tend to create problems for diesel engine wear since they tend to become staticly charged as they go through the intake plenum then cling to metal parts as the air flow rapidly decelerates in the combustion chamber.
Originally Posted by Desert_TL
Ahh, ich verstehe sehr gut. While your statement makes sense, I'm telling you that my Saturn had an air filter with 20k miles that was so clogged that it was causing the engine to idle very roughly, acceleration was very poor, and I was getting a third lower than rated gas mileage. At that point, I don't care what the "efficiency" or anything else about the filter. It needed changing and it was like instantly putting a supercharger in my engine, the improvement was that immediate and dramatic.
As I've said in prior posts, it probably makes more sense if you live in the desert. That happened while I was living in New Mexico. I live in Arizona now. I would NEVER buy a car with a "lifetime" air filter. That's a load of bull - at least in this part of the country. If you keep an air filter in your car longer than 75k miles, your car will die. End of story.
But back to your statement. Maybe you or someone else can answer a question I've had. I agree with your statement; it seems like air flow vs. the quality of filtration are direct tradeoffs. That is, if a filter had high air flow (e.g. K&N), then it must do a poorer job of filtering contaminents compared to a "standard" flow filter (e.g. Fram), which must do a better job of filtering contaminents. If the K&N and the Fram were the same size, I can't think of any way that there wouldn't be a direct trade-off between the two. That's why I've been hesitant to put a K&N in any of my cars. I don't want to potentially shorten the lifespan of the engine because of poor air filtration just to get a few extra HP. Is there something else I'm missing or some kind of voodoo I'm not thinking of that K&N does?
As I've said in prior posts, it probably makes more sense if you live in the desert. That happened while I was living in New Mexico. I live in Arizona now. I would NEVER buy a car with a "lifetime" air filter. That's a load of bull - at least in this part of the country. If you keep an air filter in your car longer than 75k miles, your car will die. End of story.
But back to your statement. Maybe you or someone else can answer a question I've had. I agree with your statement; it seems like air flow vs. the quality of filtration are direct tradeoffs. That is, if a filter had high air flow (e.g. K&N), then it must do a poorer job of filtering contaminents compared to a "standard" flow filter (e.g. Fram), which must do a better job of filtering contaminents. If the K&N and the Fram were the same size, I can't think of any way that there wouldn't be a direct trade-off between the two. That's why I've been hesitant to put a K&N in any of my cars. I don't want to potentially shorten the lifespan of the engine because of poor air filtration just to get a few extra HP. Is there something else I'm missing or some kind of voodoo I'm not thinking of that K&N does?
12-12-2006, 12:17 PM
#30
'10 Hyundai Genesis Coupe
Originally Posted by KilroyR1
I just replaced mine last week with a NAPA gold filter. It was only $20. I also did the cabin filter and it was only $21. My A12 service was due at ~27,000.
It it just me or does it seem stupid to need a screw driver to change an air filter?
Don
It it just me or does it seem stupid to need a screw driver to change an air filter?
Don
Oh man replacing the stock air filter is the biggest pain in the ass, it takes 5 minutes to open the box and without the right tools forget about it. It's just a ploy for the Acura to coerce people into going to the dealer for what I like to call the do-it-yourself stuff.
12-12-2006, 06:29 PM
#31
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Originally Posted by Eoanou
Oh man replacing the stock air filter is the biggest pain in the ass, it takes 5 minutes to open the box and without the right tools forget about it. It's just a ploy for the Acura to coerce people into going to the dealer for what I like to call the do-it-yourself stuff.
12-12-2006, 07:20 PM
#32
'10 Hyundai Genesis Coupe
I thought it was somewhat challenging to reach the screws near the interior of the motor, not mention avoiding some pipes that were extremely hot, add to the fact avoiding the washer from falling into the engine bay was also a pain. Also I used a screwdriver instead of a rachet for one of the screws and ended up stripping the screw.
Yeah I probably do suck at screwing, haha!
I don't think it should take longer than a few seconds to pull out the filter, though it should just be a few clips like found on other cars.
Yeah I probably do suck at screwing, haha!
I don't think it should take longer than a few seconds to pull out the filter, though it should just be a few clips like found on other cars.
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