vuhu_RENAMED

Hi all,

I currently own a G35...though overall been happy with the performance and handling of the G, I have been dissapointed by the interior material quality of the G...I do love the interior of the TL but after the test drive I was bothered by the too "soft" steering feel of the TL, and the lack of "fun to drive character" of the front wheel setup...
As such, I want to explore and wait for maybe the new Lexus GS300 to come out with all wheel drive and also a very refined refined interior as the TL...Is anyone in the same boat of waiting to see the new GS?...Initial Pics of the GS look promising...

mspence3

06 GS? That's so far away. I can never wait that long for new car. I would get the TL now and the GS in 18-24 months on a trade.

ndabunka

An 06? Why not get the 06TL instead. After all, it will have AWD as well. It'll also come with 385HP and a blond supermodel. GET REAL, 2006? We are quite honored that you are comparing our CURRENT TL with a hypothetical '06GS but C'mon, ,really!

amdmaxx

Wait for 2006 Lexus IS330...
Will be a HOT model!!!!
GS is more of a luxury expensive seloon to compete with 5, E, and probably TL...

Ken1997TL

Just get the '05 RL. AWD or RWD (Honda has promised it wont be FWD)

It might even be a hybrid.

EZZ

The GS was actually disappointing. The same horsepower in a heavier car and the exterior is not much better than the current one. Have you seen the NEW M45 that is about to come out. The interior looks great and the exterior is better than a G35. Same price as the GS too (you also get 350hp +). Also, the new RL will have 300hp and AWD. It looks good (not as good IMO as the M45) but the performance should be good.

Although there is something to be said for Lexus reliability

vuhu_RENAMED

"06 GS? That's so far away. I can never wait that long for new car. I would get the TL now and the GS in 18-24 months on a trade."


I think the new GS is slated for mid 05 release...which would make it only just over 12 months away...also given the issues with first year issue of TL, I would rather wait and see to make decision...to me the availability of RWD and AWD in GS would sway the decision in favor of GS for me.

Skeedatl

I'm not a big Lexus fan. They're overpriced and their styling is pretty bland, even the show pics of the GS aren't that impressive compared to what else is out there. For the $50K a loaded GS costs I'd take a 400HP CTS-V which by 2006 will have most the bugs worked out suspension-wise.

I would second the opinions about Infiniti though. They've always had great looking cars and haven't heard anything bad about their reliability. For the money, I'd take Infiniti over Lexus.

VTEC=happiness

From the pics I have seen, I think the GS looks just ok. I do like the Lexus make, I think they do a good job with their cars, so I do believe the GS will be nice. I do find it in a different category than the TL though, its up there with the E class and 5 Series. I think it would be helpful to narrow down the type of car & price range before making decisions

BoneDaddy

The new GS is sweet! I would be very interested except for the jump up in price.
I too own a G sedan and will be testing out a TL very soon as a possible replacement...

digital_b

the 05 gs [which you can see on autoweek on speed channel this week] is better looking that the current one but clearly a knockoff of the new 5 regarding 'flame surfacing'. at least its not trying to be an e series benz now. and it sure better drive better than the current gs.

Monte TLS,MAX

I just dont get these people that buy these cars and complain about the interior, you knew it wasnt the best when you got it. Go for the TL for now if you want to get outta that G this soon.

1SICKLEX

They are overpriced to an Acura, but underpriced compared to BMW and Benz.

I am sure if you saw or drove the new GS and you could afford either car, you would buy the GS. All things being relative and Lexus has a solid track record of producing great cars.Sigh, you have no clue. THe GS is the first Lexus designed using their new philosophy. Many Japanese car companies are now looking inwards for styling direction, instead of taking German cues. There are NO 5 cues in the GS. Not at all. 2 totally different designs directions.

BoneDaddy

I don't know if that was directed to me, but my issues go way beyond the look of one interior versus the other...

Monte TLS,MAX

No it wasnt Bone it was a general statement, alot of people complain about certain cars interior but yet "Buy" it anyways and nag about it.

Skeedatl

How can you be so sure when the car isn't due out for 18 months and no one had even had a chance to review it?

I've driven all of Lexus' current offerings and while the GS is a vision of the "new" Lexus...they would have to pull a 180 deg turn on performance to catch my interest or cut their prices 20%. Nothing current from Lexus even remotely impresses me and a recent bad experience with the IS300 has even put me off to so-called Lexus quality.

As for price...if you go class for class, wheelbase for wheelbase, Lexus cost just as much as BMW or MBZ. They used to represent value, but not anymore. Infiniti IMHO has long taken over that position of unqualified bang for the buck in the near luxury and luxury classes.

Lastly...there is nothing wrong with German cues so long as it comes with German performance and road feel.

1SICKLEX

Your entitled to your opinion bub. The Lexus GS is THE premium Japanese luxury sport sedan offered no matter if you like it or not. THeir cars are not for everyone (like you) and that is what the competition is for. No, I was not saying there is anything wrong with German design. I like much of it, preferably the previous designs.

Skeedatl

Premium price perhaps. Where is Lexus' mid-engine performer (eg NSX)? Where is their high performance coupe (eg G35)? Where is the "sport" in their so-called sport sedans? The ES330 LMAO? The bloated GS LMAO? The horribly tiny and underpowered Corolla-IS? Lexus is good at rebadging Toyotas and doubling their price, but they are sorely lacking in inspiring automotive performance and design.

Lexus is simply outclassed by competitors from Europe on the high end, and soundly beaten in both price and performance by Infiniti and Honda/Acura in the rest of their market.

rets

Why not compares 06GS with 06TL? ...

Teh Jatt

yeah, since it'll be rwd

1SICKLEX

Sigh, you have no ****ing clue. Stick to being a hall monitor or a librarian.

jrock65

Lexus is the best selling import luxury brand in the US. There is a reason for this. True, Lexus isn't really known for performance. But as far as interior, materials, comfy ride, ergonomics, and reliability, they are hard to beat. This is as a brand, and there are exceptions.

MOCKBA

What do you expect from 06 GS? Certainly it should be better TL, but price. I saw some exterior picture of 06 GS and was disappointed. G35 looks better for my taste. Anyway, I agree with some poster that for GS price I'd buy CTS-V, or add a Little more and buy 545.

garylee55

The interior of the G is being re-done for '05. You might want to check that out.

Skeedatl

I expected as much, no rebuttal ('cause you can't refute my statement), just mindless flames.

Skeedatl

No, the claim was made that the GS is the premiere Japanese sport sedan...and it's just plain B.S. The original poster after having this refuted of course just resorted to flaming but the fact remains...Lexus can have good built quality, but they aren't the premiere anything.

Sales is dependant on a lot of factors, and a big one is advertising...and no competitor advertises as much as Lexus. In all of the areas you mentioned, Infiniti easily equals Lexus and in performance and price easily surpasses them.

1SICKLEX

b/c THESE COMPARISONS ARE LONG IN THE TOOTH. And if I come stating facts, I am coming up with B.S. or I am a TL hater, when I am just stating facts. Well here are some. Mind you these are for the CURRENT generation GS. The 2006 model will ONLY BE BETTER.

Robot-filled Tahara sets standard for Toyota, world

Japanese facility puts focus on details

By Christine Tierney / The Detroit News

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It is the benchmark of benchmarks: Toyota Motor Co.p.’s untouchable Tahara plant on Japan’s eastern coast.

In 2003, for the second year in a row, J.D. Power and Associates bestowed its highest honor — the platinum award for best quality worldwide — on the Tahara factory that produces Lexus and Toyota vehicles.

Owners of models built at the plant, including the Lexus GS 300 and 430 and LS 430 luxury sedans, reported 63 defects per 100 vehicles — about one-third fewer than owners of premium cars built at the best BMW AG and Mercedes-Benz auto plants in Germany, according to J.D. Power data.

Conceived during Japan’s economic boom, the plant was filled with robots, amid fears of labor shortages and Toyota’s great faith in automation. As one of the automaker’s newer plants, it also allowed Toyota to experiment with new manufacturing ideas and production methods.

Set on a small peninsula on the Mikawa Bay, the factory was designed to be “worker friendly” to attract a new generation of workers who had viewed factory work as dirty, arduous and dangerous.

“It’s one of the most beautiful plants, and very neat and tidy,” said Credit Suisse First Boston analyst Koji Endo in Tokyo. The setting is lovely, too, with fishing on the quays outside.

Built in 1979, “Tahara was actually considered a mistake because it was much too automated,” said auto analyst Maryann Keller of Maryann Keller and Associates in Greenwich, Conn. In terms of costs, “it was not a competitive factory when they built it.”

The sprawling plant is air-conditioned. Computer-controlled robots do the heavy lifting and dirty work. More than 95 percent of the stamping, welding and painting operations are automated, while plant workers focus on the trim and final assembly — the details a customer notices.

Today, Tahara produces 460,000 vehicles a year in its two body shops and three assembly plants. In addition to Lexus exports, the plant complex assembles Toyota’s domestic luxury car, the Crown, the RAV4 sport-utility vehicle and three other models.

Rival luxury automakers may murmur that Lexus cars are merely “souped-up Toyotas” because the two brands share a wide array of parts. But suppliers to Toyota know better.

Tahara sets and demands the highest standards.

Toyota, already a stickler for quality, will not accept components if defects exceed 50 per million parts shipped. In contrast, for Lexus vehicles, Tahara managers insist on fewer than 10 defects per million parts.

From the outset, former plant manager Kousuke Shiramizu, now executive vice president in charge of product and product engineering, established that the margin for error for Lexus vehicles would be half what it was at Toyota.

On average at Toyota, air leaks from car exhaust systems are held to 100 liters per minute, to reduce noise. On Lexus models produced at the Tahara plant, the ceiling is a stingy 8.6 liters of air per minute.

The plant’s strict quality checks include a final stretch of inspections for cars coming off the line under the unforgiving glare of very bright lights.

Toyota also tinkered with changes in the assembly line organization at Tahara, establishing several sub-assembly lines so temporary stoppages would not halt all production.

“Tahara’s the next plateau,” said consultant Dennis Pawley, former manufacturing chief at Chrysler. “Rather than having one continuous line, they’re going against the old adage and breaking up the line.”

Living up to Tahara’s standards keeps everyone at Toyota plants around the world on their toes.

__________________


I think it is fair to compare maybe a used GS to a new TL just b/c of price. But notice they compare the TL to the IS in comparisons and the GS to the 5/E etc in comparisons. There is a reason for this.

In comparison, the TL is built in Ohio, off the Accord. So right there, that tells you that the philosophy behind the 2 are TOTALLY different. THis is not a diss to the TL. It is a fine car but defines VALUE while the GS is the best Japanese sport luxury sedan ever made.

Oh hell, here are some more FACTS:

Feb. 1997 - The research firm IntelliChoice names the GS 300 a "Best Overall Value" in the Luxury Car category.

* Oct. 1997 - The all-new GS 400 named a "Best Buy" in the luxury car category by Consumers Digest.

* Oct. 1997 - The GS 400 is given "Best of What's New" status by Popular Science.

* Nov. 1997 - The GS 400 wins the American Automobile Association (AAA) "Top Car" award for best all-around car in the $40,000 to $50,000 category.

* Dec. 1997 - The GS 400/300 high performance sedan series is named Motor Trend's "Import Car of the Year."

* Jan. 1998 - The GS 400/300 are honored as one of Car & Driver's "10 Best."

* Dec. 1998 - Consumer Digest names the GS 400/300 a "Best Buy."

* Dec. 1998 - The GS 400 wins the American Automobile Association (AAA) "Top Car" award for the best all-around car in the $40,000 to $50,000 category.

* Jan. 1999 - The GS 400/300 is honored as one of Car and Driver magazine's "10 Best."

* Jan. 2000 - Car and Driver magazine again honors the GS 400/300 as one of its "10 Best."

* Oct. 2001 - The GS sedans are named "Most Appealing Mid-Luxury Sedans" in J.D. Power and Associates' APEAL Study.

* April 2001 - Consumer Guide rates the GS 300 a "Best Buy."

* March 2002 - Consumer Reports rates the GS 300 and GS 430 a Luxury Car "Best Buy."

* May 2002 - The GS 430/300 ranks first in the mid-luxury car segment of the J.D. Power and Associates Initial Quality Study.

* November 2002 - The GS 430/300 ranks first in the entry luxury car segment of the 2003 J.D. Power and Associates Vehicle Dependability Index (VDI).

* May 2003 - The GS 430/300 ranks first in the mid-size luxury segment in the J.D. Power and Associates' Initial Quality Study. J.D. Power and Associates also awarded the GS 300/430 manufacturing facility, the Tahara Plant in Japan, the worldwide Platinum Plant Award.

1SICKLEX

And lord, I am not dissing the TL. I am stating facts and trying to help this guy decide which one to buy. Price no object, the GS hands down. Trying to have cheaper payments, get the TL.

PeterUbers

iTrader: (1)

If you're even THINKING of getting a Lexus, get the Lexus. You'll never regret it. The only think you may regret is RWD in snowy/icy road conditions. Other than that, if you can get over waiting, W A I T for the lexus!

Skeedatl

I certainly don't put the $30 TL in the same class as the $45-50 GS. The TL is more like the Camry...er ah I mean ES330. At $45-50K, that's Q45 money, that's 540 money, E500 money and against any of these the GS is little more than a bloated overpriced joke just like the last GS.

The GS is short on performance, high on price and as far as Japanese performance goes...the money is better spent elsewhere.

The GS is typical of Lexus performance or lack thereof: no sport in their so-called sport sedans...making them great cars for grandma and grandpa.

As for quality it's the luck of the draw. My girlfriends IS has repeatedly been back to Lexus for major repairs while my Acuras haven't. She's already said when her lease is up she's getting the higher rated G35.

Meanwhile as we're cutting and pasting and you mention C&D's ten best.

How many Acura's made the 10 best list? 1.
How many Infiniti's made the 10 best list? 1.
How many Lexus made the 10 best list? ZERO.

Seems like the 1997 novelty of a V8 midsize is wearing thin and with all the talk of the 06 GS...let's not forget the new Fuga based (future Skyline and 350Z chassis variant) M45 is coming as a 2005 model and is a sure 06 GS smoker.

I'll be honest. The vast majority of my disdain for Lexus comes from this horrid POS IS of my girlfriend's. It is the most sorry excuse for a car I have ever had the displeasure of dealing with. But even objectively, I look at the price to performance ratio of Lexus and simply have to side with Infiniti and Acura.

pbm317_RENAMED

Skeedatl... you're wrong in stating that Lexus hasn't been named to the C&D top 10 list. Sicklex even has it in his post, the GS was listed as part of the 10 Best 2 years in a row (1999 and 2000)

And the Corolla and IS are definitely not related. Maybe your gf just got a bad example of the IS. Many people I know have had them without any problems. And I'm sure that her dealer was better to work with than many other car dealers.

Skeedatl

I meant for 2004 which is the only year that's relevant. Lists from 3, 4 or even 7 years ago are irrelevant as models change every year. I have the C&D 10 best issue (Jan 04) right here and Lexus is a no-show.

If you just look at Acura alone, HALF of all of Acura's current offerings were nominated including the TL. The GS? Nope. Yesterday's news and beaten out by NEW competition.

This year's CD 10 best list, nearly 1/3 come from Honda/Acura

Acura TSX
Audi S4 Quattro
BMW 3-Series/M3
Corvette
Ford Focus
Accord
Honda S2000
G35
RX-8
Toyota Prius

As for the IS...I would hope so...that this IS isn't typical Lexus garbage. And it's been back to 3 different dealers trying to get various problems fixed...none are satisfactory (Tustin Lexus, Lexus of Mission Viejo, Lexus of Westminster). All say sure and try and fix it, but the problem just reoccurs. At this point she's looking at getting a refund under the Cali lemon law for the trans problem alone (freezes in 3rd gear as in jammed shift fork).

Skeedatl

nm

Fleetwood

No one's mentioned a really fine Lexus model: the 300-400 SC's. A little pricey when new, but high-quality and great performance made a well balanced car...if you didn't need a full back seat. I eventually did, and will reluctantly sell my '93 SC 300 to pay for my 02 TL-S.

1SICKLEX

Skeedatl, they only include new or newly revised models for the 10 best or previous winners. That is why Lexus only had 1/2 entries.

Lastdra900n

The 06 GS is pretty nice...

Skeedatl

That's not true. Look at the nominees, even the winners, S2000, Accord, Corvette, S4, Focus...no changes...and it's the second year in a row for the 7th gen Accord. Hell, 18 of the last 22 10 best lists had the Accord on it.

EmuMessenger

Forget the 06, the 2017 GS is reported to have a hybrid V20 with 1800HP, AWD and tri-xenon lights. Wait for 2017.

EZZ

Actually, the S2000 was knocked off the 10 best last year by the 350 Z but returned this year because it got the new 2.2 L engine (up from 2.0 L). Same peak horsepower but a wider powerband and more torque. The S2000 is now much more driveable in everyday traffic.

Also, the IS is very reliable on average. My roommate's IS300 is one of the most reliable cars I've ever seen. He's had it for 4 years and the only thing he does is routine maintanence. No rattles ever. I'm sorry to hear that your gf did not have the same experience.

1SICKLEX

Dude, I repeated what the magazine'd guidelines are, not yours.