ABS breaks?
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Instructor
Joined: Aug 2008
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From: Canada
ABS breaks?
The other day I slid on some snow, and applied my breaks firmly. For the first time, I felt strong pulsations/vibrations on the break pedal until I released it. It felt as if a turtle got lodged into the pad/wheel.
I assume this is the ABS breaking feature at work. I must admit, I didn't really notice any more control whilst sliding though, but it could have very well been in effect.
I've never had ABS since the Civic DX car I have been accustomed to for the past 10 years prior to the TL didn't have ABS.
any ideas on what the vibrations are? thanks
I assume this is the ABS breaking feature at work. I must admit, I didn't really notice any more control whilst sliding though, but it could have very well been in effect.
I've never had ABS since the Civic DX car I have been accustomed to for the past 10 years prior to the TL didn't have ABS.
any ideas on what the vibrations are? thanks
Burning Brakes
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 975
Likes: 5
From: NJ, USA
same thing happened to me. the brake pedal resists foot pressure, correct? and you hear grinding noise and it feels like you ran over a horse.
i was told its the ABS kicking in and to keep applying pressure to the brake pedal even though it resists it.
i was told its the ABS kicking in and to keep applying pressure to the brake pedal even though it resists it.
Team Owner
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 33,535
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When you apply max pressure to the brake pedal in poor traction conditions and lose traction:
The wheel speed sensors report a differance left to right
The ABS begins to rapidly apply and release the slower wheel in an attempt to regain traction. It will thump the pedal under your foot- just stay on the pedal~
The beauty of the system is its design- as the engineers call it- `Stomp and Steer`
With the brakes applied fully and in abs mode- you can still steer away from the obstacle-- and the sensors will keep changing the wheel speed to compensate as traction changes
There is a wealth of info on cold weather tips in the owner book
Practice on open road or parking lot before you need them for real~
Here is the free link for easy referance- reads the abs and traction chapters- cold weather warmup etc
https://techinfo.honda.com/rjanisis/...01_OMANUAL.asp
click year then model
The wheel speed sensors report a differance left to right
The ABS begins to rapidly apply and release the slower wheel in an attempt to regain traction. It will thump the pedal under your foot- just stay on the pedal~
The beauty of the system is its design- as the engineers call it- `Stomp and Steer`
With the brakes applied fully and in abs mode- you can still steer away from the obstacle-- and the sensors will keep changing the wheel speed to compensate as traction changes
There is a wealth of info on cold weather tips in the owner book
Practice on open road or parking lot before you need them for real~
Here is the free link for easy referance- reads the abs and traction chapters- cold weather warmup etc
https://techinfo.honda.com/rjanisis/...01_OMANUAL.asp
click year then model
AZ Community Team
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 32,488
Likes: 7,771
From: N35°03'16.75", W 080°51'0.9"
There is also a feature on the TL that detects how hard and fast you get on the brake pedal.
The harder & faster you depress the pedal the faster brake force is applied and the more likely ABS will kick in as you rech tire traction limits faster. In this case the car is detecting a "Panic Stop", so tries to assist with add'l brake force.
http://www.hondanews.com/categories/735/releases/3745
The harder & faster you depress the pedal the faster brake force is applied and the more likely ABS will kick in as you rech tire traction limits faster. In this case the car is detecting a "Panic Stop", so tries to assist with add'l brake force.
Brake Assist
Brake Assist comes standard on the TL. Its purpose is to help the driver apply full braking pressure in a "panic stop" situation. To do so, a microprocessor continually analyzes and "learns" the driver's normal braking habits.
In an emergency braking situation when the brakes are suddenly applied and partially released by the driver to avoid wheel lockup, brake assist helps the driver apply full braking force via the anti-lock actuator. A pressure sensor detects an increase in brake fluid pressure and activates the anti-lock braking system. Braking pressure is maintained momentarily after the driver's initial braking action unless the driver completely releases the brake pedal.
Brake Assist comes standard on the TL. Its purpose is to help the driver apply full braking pressure in a "panic stop" situation. To do so, a microprocessor continually analyzes and "learns" the driver's normal braking habits.
In an emergency braking situation when the brakes are suddenly applied and partially released by the driver to avoid wheel lockup, brake assist helps the driver apply full braking force via the anti-lock actuator. A pressure sensor detects an increase in brake fluid pressure and activates the anti-lock braking system. Braking pressure is maintained momentarily after the driver's initial braking action unless the driver completely releases the brake pedal.
Last edited by Bearcat94; Dec 27, 2008 at 02:15 PM.
06 WDP / 07 WDP Type-S
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 721
Likes: 4
From: Chicago
ABS also picks up rapid speed decrease. I guess this would be the Panic Stop BearCat is talking about. If the speed sensors sense high speed decreasing to low speed real fast, it will apply ABS.
Team Owner
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 33,535
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wow those gen3 cars have a lot of technology trying to outdrive you!
Everyone needs to get out the owner book and read up on this stuff, before you encounter the car applying an inside rear brake when you get into a corner to fast- it senses you are going to slide and takes partial control from you!
Everyone needs to get out the owner book and read up on this stuff, before you encounter the car applying an inside rear brake when you get into a corner to fast- it senses you are going to slide and takes partial control from you!
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Hmmm, it so happens that i some times feel those vibrations when i hit like a bumpy road and slow down, or when i got up a driveway, on a certain angle i'll feel the abs kick in, weird stuff. I dont know if thats normal.
Team Owner
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 20,172
Likes: 1,818
From: Bakersfield
All ABS does is allow the wheels to turn even though you've pressed the pedal as hard as you can.
The pulations you feel are the pump letting off pressure several times a second to keep the wheels from locking.
I've found that if you hit the pedal very fast and aggressive the ABS kicks in easier and you don't stop quite as fast.
Getting into the brakes easier puts you closer to the edge of traction.
I've proven by measuring off a section of road that I can outperform the ABS by quite a large margin on a good dry patch of road. The TL's ABS seems pretty conservative.
With the wider tires, it seems like it stops better with the thinner DOT 5.1 fluid. I believe this lets it get closer to lockup than the factory fluid.
Team Owner
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 33,535
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ABS: Its not supposed to stop a skilled driver faster- its for people who stomp on the brake pedal in total panic and drive straight into the accident, or slide off the roadway--thats why the designers called it stomp and steer
The car keeping itself going in a straight line with the brakes `locked`, thats better than pivoting 360s down the freeway like something you see on the news,,,
and being able to pick your direction of travel in an emergency dodge in that same full effort braking situation---always look for the escape hole and the car is still steering-able---thats good!
If the average driver can get around the obstacle while still standing on the brakes- thats good!
For the skilled driver who knows how to modulate the braking pressure using finesse on the pedal with speed and traction changes,,,the ABS is for when somebody else is driving your car~
A skilled driver can keep the car on the ever changing edge of traction limit, while ABS is going to be less effective in distance since one or more brakes is cycling instead of steady full braking at each wheel
I think everyone should go to track day driving school, people in snow should go to winter driving school...and be kind to motorcycles!
The car keeping itself going in a straight line with the brakes `locked`, thats better than pivoting 360s down the freeway like something you see on the news,,,
and being able to pick your direction of travel in an emergency dodge in that same full effort braking situation---always look for the escape hole and the car is still steering-able---thats good!
If the average driver can get around the obstacle while still standing on the brakes- thats good!
For the skilled driver who knows how to modulate the braking pressure using finesse on the pedal with speed and traction changes,,,the ABS is for when somebody else is driving your car~
A skilled driver can keep the car on the ever changing edge of traction limit, while ABS is going to be less effective in distance since one or more brakes is cycling instead of steady full braking at each wheel
I think everyone should go to track day driving school, people in snow should go to winter driving school...and be kind to motorcycles!
Team Owner
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 33,535
Likes: 1,142
hey- hate cars- try the distance test with it wet road and compare for us would you?!~
and one side of the car on dry and the other wet- thats when the abs really gets to work. Check you skilled driver versus the abs in the wet,ice snow..
Its not ABS= Absolute/Awesome Braking System!!-
its Anti-Lock Braking== all it wants is to keep the wheels moving, the car stops faster with the tire turning, not sliding, thats physics
and one side of the car on dry and the other wet- thats when the abs really gets to work. Check you skilled driver versus the abs in the wet,ice snow..
Its not ABS= Absolute/Awesome Braking System!!-
its Anti-Lock Braking== all it wants is to keep the wheels moving, the car stops faster with the tire turning, not sliding, thats physics
Suzuka Master
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,863
Likes: 439
a little information on the TL ABS system.
When VSA is not active
the TL reverts to a 3 channel mode where the rear wheels are tied together and it is possible for 1 rear wheel to lock although it is pretty rare.....
when VSA is active (ie car is starting to skid) the ABS system switches to 4 channel mode and applies each brake independantly in an effort to straighten of the car and reduce the skid...VSA will apply the approperiate brake when correcting a skid and abs is not active.....
When VSA is not active
the TL reverts to a 3 channel mode where the rear wheels are tied together and it is possible for 1 rear wheel to lock although it is pretty rare.....
when VSA is active (ie car is starting to skid) the ABS system switches to 4 channel mode and applies each brake independantly in an effort to straighten of the car and reduce the skid...VSA will apply the approperiate brake when correcting a skid and abs is not active.....
a little information on the TL ABS system.
When VSA is not active
the TL reverts to a 3 channel mode where the rear wheels are tied together and it is possible for 1 rear wheel to lock although it is pretty rare.....
when VSA is active (ie car is starting to skid) the ABS system switches to 4 channel mode and applies each brake independantly in an effort to straighten of the car and reduce the skid...VSA will apply the approperiate brake when correcting a skid and abs is not active.....
When VSA is not active
the TL reverts to a 3 channel mode where the rear wheels are tied together and it is possible for 1 rear wheel to lock although it is pretty rare.....
when VSA is active (ie car is starting to skid) the ABS system switches to 4 channel mode and applies each brake independantly in an effort to straighten of the car and reduce the skid...VSA will apply the approperiate brake when correcting a skid and abs is not active.....
Team Owner
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 20,172
Likes: 1,818
From: Bakersfield
hey- hate cars- try the distance test with it wet road and compare for us would you?!~
and one side of the car on dry and the other wet- thats when the abs really gets to work. Check you skilled driver versus the abs in the wet,ice snow..
Its not ABS= Absolute/Awesome Braking System!!-
its Anti-Lock Braking== all it wants is to keep the wheels moving, the car stops faster with the tire turning, not sliding, thats physics
and one side of the car on dry and the other wet- thats when the abs really gets to work. Check you skilled driver versus the abs in the wet,ice snow..
Its not ABS= Absolute/Awesome Braking System!!-
its Anti-Lock Braking== all it wants is to keep the wheels moving, the car stops faster with the tire turning, not sliding, thats physics
Where I live, ABS is more of an annoyance but like you said in another post, I'm thankful for it when the girlfriend drives.
I grew up with a high powered car with no ABS so I realize more than a lot of people when the ABS is hindering performance and when it's helping.
It's nice to be able to enter a turn too hot and on the brakes and not have the inside tire lock up. But it's annoying when you're not at the limit and you hit a small bump or two and the ABS kicks in totally ruining your stopping distance.
And I forgot to mention, I would go up against ABS on a completely wet road.
Team Owner
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 20,172
Likes: 1,818
From: Bakersfield
a little information on the TL ABS system.
When VSA is not active
the TL reverts to a 3 channel mode where the rear wheels are tied together and it is possible for 1 rear wheel to lock although it is pretty rare.....
when VSA is active (ie car is starting to skid) the ABS system switches to 4 channel mode and applies each brake independantly in an effort to straighten of the car and reduce the skid...VSA will apply the approperiate brake when correcting a skid and abs is not active.....
When VSA is not active
the TL reverts to a 3 channel mode where the rear wheels are tied together and it is possible for 1 rear wheel to lock although it is pretty rare.....
when VSA is active (ie car is starting to skid) the ABS system switches to 4 channel mode and applies each brake independantly in an effort to straighten of the car and reduce the skid...VSA will apply the approperiate brake when correcting a skid and abs is not active.....
Suzuka Master
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,863
Likes: 439
VSA is only the front 2 wheel since it cuts power to either wheel by throttle and using the ABS module unless ABS system is active then you get 4 channel brake control......sorry should have made that distinction in my first post. I believe that the 04+ are 4 channel all the time so my previous post should be 03 or earlier.
Team Owner
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 33,535
Likes: 1,142
Disclaimer: I drive a gen2 with much simpler systems
I was reading about the newer years of gen3 and its abilty to add the inside rear brake -giving it a little `trail braking` when the yaw sensor thinks you are too fast entering the corner!
There was a ziner last winter who discovered all the systems at once!!- when on a snowy freeway at 55mph he tried a quick 4 lane to the right sudden change- to get the off ramp....
The throttle limiter was active, brakes trying everything to get the car straight as it thought it was about to spin out, while the driver kept trying to go right,,,and nearly taken out by the truck in the next lane to his right- as the throttle started limiting and cutting out power....
Appearently its very exciting! Something you should practice in safety- before even taking your baby on the road even one more day- get out the owner book and read!!
if you dont have it- I post the free link all the time
I was reading about the newer years of gen3 and its abilty to add the inside rear brake -giving it a little `trail braking` when the yaw sensor thinks you are too fast entering the corner!
There was a ziner last winter who discovered all the systems at once!!- when on a snowy freeway at 55mph he tried a quick 4 lane to the right sudden change- to get the off ramp....
The throttle limiter was active, brakes trying everything to get the car straight as it thought it was about to spin out, while the driver kept trying to go right,,,and nearly taken out by the truck in the next lane to his right- as the throttle started limiting and cutting out power....
Appearently its very exciting! Something you should practice in safety- before even taking your baby on the road even one more day- get out the owner book and read!!
if you dont have it- I post the free link all the time
AZ Community Team
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 32,488
Likes: 7,771
From: N35°03'16.75", W 080°51'0.9"
Ref 2007 - http://www.hondanews.com/categories/735/releases/3745
BRAKES
Both the TL and TL Type-S feature 4-wheel disc brakes with Electronic Brake force Distribution (EBD), Brake Assist, an anti-lock braking system (ABS) and 4-channel Vehicle Stability Assist (VSA) with Traction Control System (TCS) as standard equipment.
....
Anti-lock Braking System
Standard on the TL is a three-channel Anti-lock Braking System (ABS), which works in conjunction with the Vehicle Stability Assist™ (VSA®) system. Utilizing speed sensors located at each wheel, the system modulates braking power to the front wheels independently and to the rear wheels in tandem-enhancing driver control during maximum-effort stops.
....
VEHICLE STABILITY ASSIST™ (VSA®)
The TL is equipped with 4-channel Vehicle Stability Assist™ (VSA®) that helps the driver retain control of the car in the event the vehicle reaches its dynamic traction limits. For example, this may occur through aggressive cornering, encountering ice or dirt on the road, or entering a decreasing-radius corner too fast.
In the event of understeer, the system can apply the inside front and rear brakes to increase yaw, slowing the vehicle and enabling it to complete the turn. Engine torque may also be reduced by coordination of the Drive-by-Wire Throttle System™ and powertrain control module.
The 4-channel system controls all four brakes independently. In the event of oversteer (where the rear tires lose grip), the system can apply the outside front and rear brakes to decrease yaw, slowing the vehicle and enabling it to stay on its intended path.
An indicator light on the instrument panel alerts the driver whenever the VSA system is actively enhancing the vehicle's stability.
The traction control component of VSA uses sensors that monitor each of the wheels and a computer-controlled modulation of engine power and front brakes to help prevent wheel spin when starting out or accelerating. If the sensors detect wheel spin, traction control reduces engine power and applies brake force to the affected wheels. This helps the TL maintain traction during acceleration and helps the driver retain steering control, even when accelerating on slippery surfaces.
....
Both the TL and TL Type-S feature 4-wheel disc brakes with Electronic Brake force Distribution (EBD), Brake Assist, an anti-lock braking system (ABS) and 4-channel Vehicle Stability Assist (VSA) with Traction Control System (TCS) as standard equipment.
....
Anti-lock Braking System
Standard on the TL is a three-channel Anti-lock Braking System (ABS), which works in conjunction with the Vehicle Stability Assist™ (VSA®) system. Utilizing speed sensors located at each wheel, the system modulates braking power to the front wheels independently and to the rear wheels in tandem-enhancing driver control during maximum-effort stops.
....
VEHICLE STABILITY ASSIST™ (VSA®)
The TL is equipped with 4-channel Vehicle Stability Assist™ (VSA®) that helps the driver retain control of the car in the event the vehicle reaches its dynamic traction limits. For example, this may occur through aggressive cornering, encountering ice or dirt on the road, or entering a decreasing-radius corner too fast.
In the event of understeer, the system can apply the inside front and rear brakes to increase yaw, slowing the vehicle and enabling it to complete the turn. Engine torque may also be reduced by coordination of the Drive-by-Wire Throttle System™ and powertrain control module.
The 4-channel system controls all four brakes independently. In the event of oversteer (where the rear tires lose grip), the system can apply the outside front and rear brakes to decrease yaw, slowing the vehicle and enabling it to stay on its intended path.
An indicator light on the instrument panel alerts the driver whenever the VSA system is actively enhancing the vehicle's stability.
The traction control component of VSA uses sensors that monitor each of the wheels and a computer-controlled modulation of engine power and front brakes to help prevent wheel spin when starting out or accelerating. If the sensors detect wheel spin, traction control reduces engine power and applies brake force to the affected wheels. This helps the TL maintain traction during acceleration and helps the driver retain steering control, even when accelerating on slippery surfaces.
....
Team Owner
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 20,172
Likes: 1,818
From: Bakersfield
I found out one of the features of VSA on accident following a friend's 350Z too fast around a slippery Vegas offramp. I entered about 10mph faster than him trying to make up some ground. The rear stepped out and instead of countersteering to completely correct it, I let the rear stay out a few degrees for fun. I guess the computer didn't like this because I felt the ABS pulse with my foot nowhere near the brake pedal and it brought the tail back in and ruined my fun. It did it's job but this was only a very slight slide. I wouldn't trust it to save my ass in a real slide.
Suzuka Master
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,863
Likes: 439
Disclaimer: I drive a gen2 with much simpler systems
I was reading about the newer years of gen3 and its abilty to add the inside rear brake -giving it a little `trail braking` when the yaw sensor thinks you are too fast entering the corner!
There was a ziner last winter who discovered all the systems at once!!- when on a snowy freeway at 55mph he tried a quick 4 lane to the right sudden change- to get the off ramp....
The throttle limiter was active, brakes trying everything to get the car straight as it thought it was about to spin out, while the driver kept trying to go right,,,and nearly taken out by the truck in the next lane to his right- as the throttle started limiting and cutting out power....
Appearently its very exciting! Something you should practice in safety- before even taking your baby on the road even one more day- get out the owner book and read!!
if you dont have it- I post the free link all the time
I was reading about the newer years of gen3 and its abilty to add the inside rear brake -giving it a little `trail braking` when the yaw sensor thinks you are too fast entering the corner!
There was a ziner last winter who discovered all the systems at once!!- when on a snowy freeway at 55mph he tried a quick 4 lane to the right sudden change- to get the off ramp....
The throttle limiter was active, brakes trying everything to get the car straight as it thought it was about to spin out, while the driver kept trying to go right,,,and nearly taken out by the truck in the next lane to his right- as the throttle started limiting and cutting out power....
Appearently its very exciting! Something you should practice in safety- before even taking your baby on the road even one more day- get out the owner book and read!!
if you dont have it- I post the free link all the time
the third gen might do the 2 inside wheels under certain conditions but I am not sure.......becuase I cannot find info on it. although that acura info does not list it. ABS is 4 channel when VSA is active.....(Acura owner's link under specs)
Last edited by YeuEmMaiMai; Dec 28, 2008 at 06:42 PM.
Suzuka Master
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,863
Likes: 439
I found out one of the features of VSA on accident following a friend's 350Z too fast around a slippery Vegas offramp. I entered about 10mph faster than him trying to make up some ground. The rear stepped out and instead of countersteering to completely correct it, I let the rear stay out a few degrees for fun. I guess the computer didn't like this because I felt the ABS pulse with my foot nowhere near the brake pedal and it brought the tail back in and ruined my fun. It did it's job but this was only a very slight slide. I wouldn't trust it to save my ass in a real slide.
It definately works in a real slide, I do it all the time in our parking lot aka the ice rink :P with my cls and the car will correct it's self almost immediately.........obviously if you are in a 360 spin, you're done......
AZ Community Team
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 32,488
Likes: 7,771
From: N35°03'16.75", W 080°51'0.9"
How can you not be sure; the info I posted says specifically that it can. :lol:
The Honda news specifiactions link confirms and expands on what you've posted earlier (3-channel ABS, etc).
VSA and ABS are two different applications of the same system. Or, maybe a better way to say it, they are two features that use common systems and are each applied in specific situations.
....
In the event of understeer, the system can apply the inside front and rear brakes to increase yaw, slowing the vehicle and enabling it to complete the turn. Engine torque may also be reduced by coordination of the Drive-by-Wire Throttle System™ and powertrain control module.
....
In the event of understeer, the system can apply the inside front and rear brakes to increase yaw, slowing the vehicle and enabling it to complete the turn. Engine torque may also be reduced by coordination of the Drive-by-Wire Throttle System™ and powertrain control module.
....
Team Owner
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 20,172
Likes: 1,818
From: Bakersfield
How can you not be sure; the info I posted says specifically that it can. :lol:
The Honda news specifiactions link confirms and expands on what you've posted earlier (3-channel ABS, etc).
VSA and ABS are two different applications of the same system. Or, maybe a better way to say it, they are two features that use common systems and are each applied in specific situations.
The Honda news specifiactions link confirms and expands on what you've posted earlier (3-channel ABS, etc).
VSA and ABS are two different applications of the same system. Or, maybe a better way to say it, they are two features that use common systems and are each applied in specific situations.
Team Owner
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 20,172
Likes: 1,818
From: Bakersfield
No doubt it works but I think it's designed more for the driver that hits a slick spot and the rear barely steps out of line. For the sliding I'm used to, I'm using up all of the steering correction that's available and VSA does little if anything.
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