Just for the benefit of the people out there that think that F1 is using automatic, it is wrong. They are using a very sophisticated manual transmission. The paddles tell servos etc to retard the engine for a split second and then do a shift. It has not torque converter, but a clutch. They have only taken out the human doing the clutch with hydrolics.

Also, (and this is an opinion) I bet the transmission on an F1 car cost more than a TL.

 

Whoa - got some transmission envy there? I don't think you can simply say one is superior to the other; and I'm not making that assertion. But where I think you're wrong is when you say you can't "use the throttle or the lever to cause the transmission to downshift, but you can't hold a gear with the same level of control" - I think you can with the flick of a wrist and for some, it may prove to be more control. I've driven all kinds of manuals and in traffic or certain other situations, I'd say there is more contol with Tiptronic. To each his own.

 

anyone know the auto Tl time and manual Tl time an the quarter mile

 

Question thought is are they using the ss to shift or just letting the tranny do it by it self.

 

I disagree that a "Tip" as more control than a manual (especially in the Acura implementation). Tips and autos in general can be better in slick conditions because they tend to "soften" inputs to the wheels. This is caused by the slippage in the torque converter (TC).

Most lockup TC only do it in the upper gears if they lock up AND they usually unlock when you let off the throttle. This does not give you a DIRECT connection to the wheels. The only exception to this that I know of in recent memory is the AMG version of the Mercedes Benz transmission. In my AMG the TC locks up in every gear with no slippage.

So I don't see how something that mutes or dampens your inputs actually gives you more control? For example, if you get on and off the throttle with most automatics (including Tips) there is a slight pause as the power goes through the TC and then into the tranny. There is definitely not a feeling of being "connected" with what is going on.

Think of it as towing a car being connect via a chain (auto) or a pole (manual or AMG Tip). When you left of the gas in the auto, you introduce slop into the system, as soon as you left off the gas in in the manual, instant response. When you take off again the auto must take up the slop of the chain (so to speak) before it starts again whereas the manual is directly connected.

Sometimes this "slop" is beneficial when the car is not tuned properly or when the motor is turbocharged but this noramlly only applies to acceleration rather than braking.

So I would like to understand how people think they have more control with the Tip than a manual. The only way I can see it is it can mask their sloppiness or lack of understanding of the use of transmission. If you suck at shifting gears then drive a Tip or auto (with my AMG I had no choice Tip only). You can still have fun with a Tip and with the exception of the AMG, I haven't seen a Tip come close to the direct connected feeling of a manual.

 

I wonder what could have given me the idea that you were saying the automanual was superior?

Oh yeah, now I remember:

BTW, excellent post, wavshrdr.

 

brahtw8 - thanks for the kind remarks. It did jar my memory into thinking another plus to manual trannies.

For example I would love a CVT (from a theoretical standpoint (and the engineer talking in me)) as I love the fact of keeping the engine at its torque peak and thereby achieving peak efficiency and acceleration but there is one situation where I clearly love a manual.

I have a highly modified WRX. Like man turbo cars it has non-linear response. Nail the throttle about 4k rpm and it will spin all four wheels if it is remotely slick AND you are in the lower 3 gears. Now let's suppose I want to accelerate a little briskly BUT NOT break the tires loose. If I mash the throttle to WOT in almost all automatics, they will down shift to the lowest gear possible. In the Sube 5spd, I keep the RPM below 4k by my gear choice but still accelerate reasonably well with large throttle openings BUT low RPMs. This is not normally possible in most auto and tips even when you manually select the gear.

Also in snow the last thing I need is more torque multiplication due to a torque converter when I am trying to take off in snow. Now when I lived in the south or SoCal, it wasn't an issue. I only had to deal with rain and maybe mud on the roads.

So while I may not be the ultimate purist and want to drive something like a little S2000 (I'm too big and they are too slow) I do enjoy rowing my own gears most of the time but I do appreciate an auto tranny when stuck in heavy traffic. I have learned a trick that saves a lot of shifting. I just find whatever gear I can idle along in and just try and move a stead pace even if my peak speeds are somewhat slower than the rest. It saves my nerves and wear and tear on my car and clutch.

One last BIG plus in my mind. Most manuals are cheaper to upgrade when you want to hotrod your car. Normally slap in a heavy-duty clutch and you are done. I have found manuals to be cheaper to repair when they break. Without all the slppage due to the TC they tend to run cooler. But if you are clueless and don't know how to shift you can reduce even the best built manual gearbox to a pile of rubble in a few hours. Just shave the syncros down and then break the dogs off the gearbox. When you finally know your car so well you can shift it without the clutch, then you will really be on the way to mastering your car.

FYI, it's a good skill to have. Once the hydraulic slave cylinder went out on my race Mazda. I finished 2nd in my class without ever using the clutch for the balance of the race which was another 10 laps! I didn't gain any positions but I didn't lose either.

 

I think part of the problem is that because there are so few manual cars available and fewer still that are good manuals, people don't know how to drive stick anymore. You just hop in an Auto and drive. A manual is a learning experience but like a riding a bike, you never forget.

 

Well, there's no doubt that there is a different connectedness to the road because a manual does not have the torque converter interfering, but what I'm really on about is the ability to select gears, hold the gear, use the engine to break, and generally, select a any gear and "still accelerate reasonably well with large throttle openings BUT low RPMs."

wavshrdr says: "This is not normally possible in most auto and tips even when you manually select the gear."

Well, in most cases it is with Acura's Tip. That's what I find you can do most of the time and have a lot of fun. And in city driving and my personal lack of wanting to hotrod my car and deal with constant stop and go traffic in downtown Toronto, its great.

Driving in snow poses a whole different set of problems, but with the flick of the wrist at a standing start, Acura's Tip will start in second and I believe, if you have engaged that at the start, it will continue to start in second until you flick back down into first. So you can at least try an avoid some slippage, but when it really snows where I live, an SUV is what you really need.

There are attributes a Tip provides that drivers, particularly those that never really benefited from a manual, can really learn to use. To drive a manual transmission well you need to practice engaging the clutch smoothly and quickly and use the throttle properly, all in combination. To get some benefit out of a TIP you need to apply some common sense as to when to shift into, or out of, a gear in combination with accelerting, declerating or entering into a corner.

Where I think there is some real benefit in a manual is the ability to use the throttle and basically keep those revs up to launch the car more quickly, or keep the torque up there which is quite fun and most noticable on a car like my old CRX. Now that was a little pocket rocket and the manual was the only way to go in the thing.

Ahh, maybe its age; I've just gotten used to having my coffee on an uninterupted basis in the morning.

 

This is like that Nav / no Nav thread. Both sides are right, because it is what they believe. My suggestion is if you are wavering, get an AT. Having a MT is something that you KNOW you want. It is not a 'well, maybe I would like one but....'. This is the same as Nav. You know you want one, or you do not spend the money.

Me, 6MT with NO Nav. Love the car.

 

I have the manual, and the VCS and TCS makes it just as effective as an automatic in the snow. Admittedly, the 5AT is a great transmission and is more befitting the car.