PoochaKannInc

Its not so much the smoothness of the start. Rather, it has to do with how easily the gear goes into 1st. Never force the shift lever into 1st. At a stop, it might be tough to put it into first, by throwing it into 2nd gear first, it slows down the spinning to a level that the synchros can easily stop.

It is similar with reverse. There are times when it is very hard to get the car into reverse, but if you first shift into lets say 3rd and then back to reverse, it almost slides right in.

Here is part of an article someone posted a long while back:

"Because reverse is done with an actual moving gear (and no synchro's), the car and the intermediate shaft must both be stopped for the gear teeth to match up. This is most commonly a problem if a person wants to go into reverse after the car has been idling in neutral. If one just pushes down the clutch pedal and shifts into reverse, it will grind.
One approach is to simply wait a couple of seconds after pushing down the clutch pedal so that the intermediate shaft can come to a halt before shifting into reverse. To do it faster, you can push down the clutch, shift briefly into one of the forward gears (using its synchro to slow down the intermediate shaft) and then shift instantly into reverse.
To instantly get into reverse after braking in a hard stop (such as when driving a gymkhana course), leave the transmission in the forward gear you were in. At the moment you get to zero speed, the lever can be thrown into reverse (because the intermediate shaft was halted when it was engaged to the last gear), and power can then be immediately applied."
http://www.318ti.org/notebook/shifting/

bklynpanman

HEY SOUTHERN... WHILE DOWNSHIFTING.. WHY MUST YOU BLIP THE GAS IN NEUTRAL AND NOT WHILE THE CLUTCH IS DEPRESSED.. SKIPPING A STEP.. i KNOW YOU ARE RIGHT I JUST WANT TO KNOW THE REASON, AND WHY IT'S BAD FOR THE COMPONENTS THIS WAY

jackabyte

What Southernboy is describing is called a double-clutch downshift, while it reduces the load on the syncros it is not necessary given how good the syncros are on today's modern trannies. As long as you do a rev-match single clutch downshift you'll be fine.

PoochaKannInc

seamg:

It is not really about the smoothness of the start. It is the effort it takes to enter 1st gear. Sometimes when you try to get into 1st, it is extremely hard, and you have to "crunch" it in. This is because the synchronizers are resisting.

By shifting into 2nd or 3rd first and then putting it into 1st, the synchros allow you to get into 1st gear much easier. It slides right in.

There was a link that someone posted a while back (I forget who it was, but whoever you are, thanks). The following link helped me a lot in understanding how to properly downshift, etc. etc. IMO, very very useful.
http://www.318ti.org/notebook/shifting/

seamg

PoochaKannInc - Thanks. Now it makes perfect sense. Ultimately, if you gearbox does not resist shiting into first, then you really don't need to shift into second or third briefly before shifting to first.

Any thoughts on improving the initial shift into first when starting from a stop. I'd say 50% of the time its seamless, and 45% almost seamless, and 5% jerky (especially with a cold gearbox).

SouthernBoy

To seamg;

PoochaKannInc got it right. All you are doing is letting the synchronizers stop the gears by doing less work so your shift into first is less tramatic on the transmision. But PoochaKannInc is right about the quality of today's synchros.. the TL uses double-cone synchros. I'm talking 10's of thousands of shifts over many 10's of thousands of miles. But it's still a habit I am not going to let die.

I'm not sure what is meant by, "Any thoughts on improving the initial shift into first when starting from a stop. I'd say 50% of the time its seamless, and 45% almost seamless, and 5% jerky (especially with a cold gearbox)", but I'll attempt an answer. I suspect what you really mean here is dealing with the "touchy" clutch on the TL. The "touchyness" of my clutch is due to two things" (1) it begins its engagement too close to the floor; and (2) the engagement travel is short. The only thing you can do to alleviate this problem is to perform a clutch adjustment and on this car, it's not that easy. But I'm still probably going to do it at some point.


To bklynpanman;

As you pass through the neutral gate, you let the clutch out some to spin up the gears in the transmission while at the same time, you blip the throttle. This action forces the gears to spin faster than they would be turning in the lower gear you have select to downshift into. Then when the clutch goes back in, and the engine and gears are spinning down, there will come a monent when the speed of the gears, the engine RPMs, and the wheel speed will match and your shift will be seamless.

jackabyte mentions a term which I failed to use called "rev-matching". This is exactly what you are doing in all of this. You are trying to match the revs (RPMs) of the engine to the drive wheels via the gear ratios of the transmission/final drive combo. That is what is being attempted.

PoochaKannInc

Just to add on to Southern Boy's answer (if I comprehend your question correctly). You have to slip the clutch in first to get it going smoothly. Just be sure not to rev it up too much. What has worked well for me is concentrating on lifting my left leg off the clutch slowly, while simultaneously giving it some throttle also slowly. It makes the smoothest starts, and the engine does not lug from lack of revs, or the wheels don't spin from too much throttle.

I know it doesn't sound like amazing advice, but it takes practice and concentration (esp so that you exactly how much throttle so that you don't wear out the clutch by giving it too much). I can tell you this though, I am much much smoother at 6500 miles than I was at a 1000 miles. It will get easier, but it still takes concentration, because the clutch is more like a switch without much room for play. Hope this made sense.

spidey07

while we're on shifting....

I have to brag just a little bit.

I've gotten to the point now that I can down shift or doubleclutch and even a passenger can't tell that I have changed gears.

Its taken about a year of practice though.

PoochaKannInc

Woohoo! It is possible then!

SouthernBoy

To spidey07;

Do that and you've pretty much arrived.

spidey07

yep - at least a year of practicing....everyday.

3rd - 2nd - 3rd - 4th - 2nd - 3rd - 5th - 3rd - 5th - 2nd

all while maintaing the same speed and the car doesn't shift weight.

jeez....lots of practice and 10 years on a manual.

you're right though - most can't shift well. and it take a TON of practice.

SouthernBoy

I will freely admit, though, that the TL, at least my TL, does not have a forgiving clutch. It will spank you if you are not paying attention or doing it oh-so right.

The best car I've ever had in this department was my 2000 SVT Contour. Excellent shifter, though I think the TL shift is just about it's equal, superb clutch, better than the TL, and perfect travel, the TL also has excellent travel.. not too long and not too short.. just right.

I'll get used to it, but I still want to adjust it.

spidey07

to me the shift on the TL is great. action is butter smooth.

but you hit the nail on the head - the clutch is unforgiving. You have GOT to be right on.

Its almost binary - the clutch is either engage or disengaged. There is not much play in it.

I even missed a gear yesterday when my bud and I were playin'. DOH!

vroooooommmmm.....vriiinnnngggeeeeeee...

crap.

mancur

Can someone explain the difference (and downside) of not double-clutching, but downshifting as follows:

Press down on clutch pedal

Shift to lower gear

Blip gas pedal (while clutch pedal is still down)

Let out clutch.

As I understand it, this will still rev-match the engine, but not rev-match the working parts of the transmission -- i.e. cause some stress on the synchronizers. Correct?

If so, the next questions are: How bad is this for the synchronizers? How hearty are the synchonizers? How long would they last under such conditions? 100K? 200K?

Thanks for the help.

SouthernBoy

To mancur;

By not spinning up the gears, the synchos will have to do more work which over the long haul, equates to a shorter life. Acura uses good parts in the manual tranny so you are Ok. But the extra little "blip-with-the-clutch-coming-out-in-the-neutral-gate-pass" will soften the load on the synchros.

You statement, "As I understand it, this will still rev-match the engine, but not rev-match the working parts of the transmission -- i.e. cause some stress on the synchronizers" is right. But I wouldn't be seriously concerned as long are you are rev-matching the engine and drive wheels for the next lower gear.. that helps a lot with the clutch.

Mose

This is a stupid question, but could someone please explain exactly what is meant by "blipping" the gas pedal? Are you trying to get the revs up high enough to rev-match just for a second with a tap of the pedal, or are you putting the pedal down and holding the correct rpms?

My wife would really like for me to smooth out 1st to 2nd. She's tired of being bumped around in my car!

PoochaKannInc

You are just making a quick stab at the throttle, in order to match the revs to the lower gear.

JetJock

sometimes I just skip second and go right into third gear...this makes for much smoother shifts when I'm carrying passengers....and the engine has enough power and torque that second gear is really not necessary for everyday driving...try it and see what you guys think

seamg

Interesting idea. I mean, with the A/C on and the car full of passengers, sometimes the shifts can be a bit rough with so much stress on the engine.

PoochaKannInc

I have done that when I'm just cruising, 1-3, 2-4, etc.

spidey07

heheheh.

My favorite is 5th to 3rd.

exit ramps ya know.

Oops, did I say that?

drive carefully folks.

mancur

Mose, as someone generously posted before, you have to hold the clutch in a little longer on the TL to get the 1-2 engine rev-match. Ever since that advice, my 1-2 shifts have gone smoothly. Someone else mentioned that the ECU will automatically hold the engine at the correct revs for the next upshift (though I haven't confirmed this yet in the car manual).

To give you rough numbers, take 1st gear to ~4,000 RPMs then shift to 2nd and hold the clutch down for 0.5-1s longer than normal, then release. This gives the engine more time to drop RPMs and you should be smoother.

seamg

Exactly! I was talking about that below in this thread. I'm glad that I'm not the only one who noticed it.