ez12a

blip isnt the right word. I did not mean blipping in a sense like you would if you were to downshift.

I like applying a tiny bit of gas when the engagement point makes contact. not enough to "over-rev" but just to stop it from falling any further. I then follow through with full clutch release and desired throttle.

anyways, different strokes for different folks. You'll see in the video i posted the guy also steps on the gas when he pauses for that slip. I doubt any of you guys would wait for full clutch release before even touching the gas.

SouthernBoy

Thank you for the flowers.

Rev matching is never a good thing to do when upshifting UNLESS your timing has been disrupted for some reason (car suddenly pulls out or slows up in front, you have to do a quick lane change, etc. and engine speed has dropped to much). And the reason is because, like you mentioned, you want engine speed to drop enough for a smooth transition into the next gear into which you're shifting.

SouthernBoy

Yeah, you don't want to do this. You want to get into the throttle at the same time your clutch is releasing and if done right, you will not be slipping or riding the clutch. It will be seamless and you'll know this because the shift will not even be felt. It will just happen.

BTW, I meant to mention something about the guy's shifting on the video which appears on the second page of this thread. During his upshifts, he pauses almost at the top of the takeup before he completely releases from the pedal. Now granted, we don't know if he had obtained full engagement at that point in the takeup, but if not, this is an area needing improvement. Also when he downshifts, he is rev matching (not double clutching) and it appears as though he is slipping (slowly releasing) the clutch even after the rev match. You don't want to do this. You want to perform your rev match, or double clutch, in such a manner that you could release your clutch rather quickly, which you should, and neither you nor a passenger would be aware of the downshift. This takes practice and proficiency in timing engine and wheel speed but is well worth the trouble to learn.

killersrt

I haven't really had any issue with driving the TL. I feel that it is at some times, inconsistent, but I've also got a bad knee now, so that could be attributing Sometimes, you get the slight jerk, sometimes not. I don't know if it's been mentioned yet, but the AC compressor plays a big role in it for me. With the AC off, the occasional jerks are few and far between. I usually roll off in 1st between 750-1200rpms, and I usually shift between 3.5-4k rpm's from 1st to 3rd gear. I hardly ever touch 6th gear unless I'm on the interstate. I mainly use 5th gear as my "cruise" gear at 45mph+, but normally stay in 1st-4th gear during city driving. Doing that, my engine braking is much more efficient, and I don't "bog" or have the need to downshift when needing acceleration. I also keep a consistent 22-23mpg


I've only owned manual car's, and I've never liked automatics before. I will say that every car is different. What is easy for one, may not be as easy for another.

I've driven manual in FWD, RWD, AWD, (High HP cars, as well as stock, in each class) 4x4 trucks etc, and each has it's pro's and con's.


For a side note to safety, be careful when going from one manual to another. Allow yourself a few minutes to readjust. When going from a fully built 450+hp 6-puck srt-4 to a stock 92' Toyota Pickup, I thought I was going to slam the clutch pedal through the floorboard

mau108

So an update,

I've been getting to know the car, haven't stalled it in months (which is a good thing) but I'm still not smooth.

One thing I noticed was there was resistance from the clutch from the beginning, I did a clutch fluid swap (Turkey baster, sucked out old fluid put in new one) and I notice my clutch pedal goes in and out a lot easier.

Does anyone think my clutch is on its way out? I do have a constant problem not reving it enough on take off (damn gas pedel + v6 so hard! I wish the pedel was like the RDX or my old preludes) so it usually gets to the point of stall before the car goes, I wonder if this is wearing the clutch excessively.

I don't mind if the clutch goes out but I'd like some kind of warning so I can order the parts and be prepared for it so I have minimal down time.

What do you guys think? I'm not an aggressive driver, I've done a few WOT runs, the car is used so I don't know how the previous owner drove it coupled with my inexperience in manual (first manual car I've owned and daily drive!) and the crappy Toronto traffic I wonder if my clutch is trashed.

Honestly I like this lighter clutch feel as I seem to be driving it a lot better now then before lol.

bouncer07

When I test drove the TL, I felt like it has a stage 2 clutch like my little 4 banger Civic back in the days. I jerked the car, but it's getting the hang of when to clutch and gas, once you pass that stage, you can drive and shift with your eyes closed.

So you WOT. I did too and many times on the TL. I find it that when I floor the TL all the way to redline, the clutch pedal seems to be pushed in the back a lil longer. Like when I would try to re-clutch after I down shift, the pedal takes longer to get back to where it would. I feel this odd as my car only has 30,000 miles for a 2005. Does anyone have this effect? Slave cylinder? I feel as it could be all TL's but could be just mine?

justnspace

iTrader: (1)

^bouncer, I had the same symptoms as you.
after taking my car to redline, my clutch would be come stiff and not return to its original height.

i had to pump the clutch a couple of times to get it to return.

to remedy the problem - i tried the slave cylinder mod.
DID NOT HELP.
I replaced my clutch and now no more sticking!!!!!!!

I found that my pressure plate had several heat scores on it.
my disks were slipping.

Search - "justnspace stiff clutch" and you'll find my thread

bouncer07

I barely drive the TL and it's sitting at 30,009 miles... if you had the same problem then it must means it's common since some owners in this thread has experienced this stiffness. If it's the pressure plate then replaced the clutch and the plate would result in same occurance... Have you changed out the MTF? I kind of want to check everything before I even go ahead and purchase a clutch. The throw out bearing have any wear on yours or just the plate? I would try to see other options and the last option would be the clutch removal.

justnspace

iTrader: (1)

the clutch is a wear and tear item.
which means......if the previous owner didnt know how to operate the clutch PROPERLY, it can go out prematurely.

which was the case for mine.

A properly operated clutch can last the lifetime of the car.

EvilVirus

iTrader: (8)

After reading this entire post I dont get how come most of you all had a hard time learning to drive this TL 6mt. When I test drove mine it felt different from my previous car but never had a problem drive it after I bought it that day.

bouncer07

I know how most of these guys are coming from. It just bites/grabs early. Honda Torque FTW.

EvilVirus

iTrader: (8)

^ I guess, it just depends on the different level of experience

justnspace

iTrader: (1)

^i always had an american car.
the clutch always has a high grabbing point.

the TL's is soo freakin LOW.

EvilVirus

iTrader: (8)

^ As have I

My third car (weekend car) was American. I dont know the thought just sounded weird too me.

Oh and thanks for the info on the stiff clutch. I had that problem too. If I had pass the 6.2k I notice the same response as you and bouncer. I havent done the slave cylinder mod yet. BTW how is that SCM working for you?

94eg!

Did you guys know you can adjust the grab point?

If you loosen the jam-nut where the pedal connects to the push-rod, you can turn the pushrod to move the grab point up or down. If you raise it, just make sure you still have some free-play with the pedal all the way out (so you know the clutch isn't always being pushed). If you find the desired height, but don't have any free-play, you can adjust the clutch switch to raise the pedal height height slightly and add a little play (1mm). I've never had to adjust it so much that I removed ALL the free play.

I had to adjust my TL because I owned 4 Hondas with manual transmissions, and I like them all to drive the same.

Just don't go too wild with raising the grab height. The more you raise it, the further your pressing in the clutch diaphragm when your foots all the way in. Make small adjustments and go for a test drive.

BTW: I have a 218k mile CRX. Still has the original clutch.

bouncer07

^ I like my clutch with pressure than with little pressure. Makes me know that my clutch isn't going out on me. But it can be a good mod for people who likes certain points.

94eg!

I'm not really sure what you mean, but adjusting the clutch doesn't change the force at all.

If your saying you like a stiffer clutch pedal, that's probably because your used to a cable actuated clutch. The hydraulic clutches on modern Hondas (92+) are all very easy to push.

ez12a

indeed, my 93 integra's cable clutch was a lot harder to push than my TL..kind of funny since the power difference between the that and my TL isnt even comparable.

BEAR-AvHistory

My ‘06 6MT had the worse clutch I have ever driven since 1959. Sure you can adapt to the clutch & become quite proficient but a good clutch is one you can just get in & drive off with no fuss.

Was my only real disappointment in an otherwise really nice car.

justnspace

iTrader: (1)

^girls are like "Justin, HOW LONG HAVE YOU HAD THIS CAR? AND YOU STILL DONT KNOW HOW TO DRIVE IT!?!?!??!?!?!?!"

pjillta

damn this thread lol. after reading it and then going out for a drive I kept on second guessing myself that I didn't have this problem. I felt like a student driver haha. but i feel like the only time I feel the jerk from 1st to 2nd is when I actually am trying not to do it. usually i just go with the motions and it feels like an auto. maybe that is just me.

tpatt94

i have dealt with similar problems, as the tl is also the first car, and manual car i have owned. i found that i was doing this because i was not giving the car gas soon enough as i was letting out the clutch. This is really only a problem in second gear because it has a great amount of torque. Just practice timing. I've had it for 5 months now, and second can still trip me up now and again, but overall, its just fine tuning your method on that specific car.

I have only driven my dads civic si, and this car is much harder because of the clutch takeup, but i have heard that that is adjustable....

jb879123

I've driven countless manuals. I have a commercial drivers license with a lot of big truck experience. The truck I drive daily is an 8speed Eaton Fuller transmission Peterbilt 357 log truck. Of course with those trucks you only use the clutch for lo, 1st or reverse.

my last car was a 5speed accord. I only used the clutch for 1st and reverse in that too - however I don't have the balls to do it in my TL.

all manual transmissions have a torque band where the gears synchronise correctly and perform an optimal shift. This is how I drove a Honda accord and any other MT car I've driven without the clutch.

that being said, my TL syncs up the best between 3200-3500 rpms. While less fuel efficient, that's the way it was designed and that's the way the shifts perform the best. If you're changing gears at 2500, its going to jerk and be shitty. You've got a luxury performance sedan, why drive it like a skirt? Drive it the way its built to be driven.

if you ask me, the TL has one of the best clutches I've used. As for takeoffs, I get off 1000-1150, but I've driven MT all my life and have pretty good throttle control.

and for all you people who's TL is your first manual, a wise man once told me regarding the gas pedal and clutch - its just two ships passing in the night.

DC2many

^agreed

32-35 feels best and smooth
i shift 1st-3rd at 32+ then 4-6 is a lot smoother at any rpm above 1.8ish after that

shifting around 2.5 and below requires care and burning the clutch just a little bit more than if driven at optimal point, i'm currently rehabilitating to driving higher rpm since its smoother and much more effortless rather than to save some measly mpg
I usually get between 25-29 on my daily basis. Driving habit has to do a lot with it and I think some has been covered here and in the gas saving thread somewhere on the first page as well.

94eg!

less throttle can make up for more rpm.

rockstar143

iTrader: (6)

I've removed the checkvalve and taken the extra slack out of the pedal feel by make the clutch grab as high up as possible.

This has transformed the car into a regular Honda manual transmission like the others I've always had. Trust me, you won't look back once you do the slave cylinder checkvalve removal.

Justn is describing a much larger issue that he had to solve by replacing the clutch. I would venture to guess that's now the majority of your problems though.

DanV's06TL

The TL is definitely not the easiest car to shift smoothly in. However, it's not the hardest either. Prior to getting my 06 6mt, i had an 03 350z 6MT. Now that thing was impossible. Even if you did "pre-rev" as someone mentioned and let off the clutch slowly, it would chatter and it just wouldn't be smooth at all.

SouthernBoy

Be very careful doing this. You could be damaging your release bearing and also reducing the amount of clamping pressure applied by the pressure plate. Be sure to stay within specs which are:

Free play (also called toe play) = .39 - .71 inches
* Disengagement height = 3.56 inches

The disengagement height is the distance from the floor (firewall) to the front of the pedal, not the rear of the pedal or the pedal shaft. And by front of the pedal, that means the crown of the front of the pedal; the part which is furthest in its presentation.

SouthernBoy

You should be able to shift at any RPM which is within the recommended and useable range for the given target gear select. The reason that people tend to have problems with jerking on their 1st-to-2nd shift is due to the very wide ratio spread between those two gears. Contrary to what Acura advertises, we do NOT have a close ration manual transmission and this is due to the fact of the wide 1-to-2 ratio spread. First gear is carries a 3.93:1 ratio and second is 2.48:1. That's a very wide spread. Now compare that with the 2-to-3 spread with third gear at 1.70:1.

What this means is if you only take your engine up to, say 2400 RPM before you shift into second gear, you're going to have to let the engine drop down to around 1500 before getting your clutch out if want to have a smooth transition into second gear. And that assumes your car is not slowing down between shifts! Applying this same formula to a 1-2 shift made at 3500 RPM means you will have to have the engine down to around 2200 RPM for a smooth transition.

These are wide engine speed spreads and are the result of a wide ratio spread between first and second gear. The rest of the gears are what most would consider to be of a normal spread in their ratios.

The decimal fraction to keep in mind is just over .6 (actually .63 but you are not likely to be able to do this in your head on the fly). What this means is if you are doing a 1-2 shift, you need to keep in mind that your engine speed once in second gear needs to be approximately 60% of what it is in first gear. So a 1-2 shift from 5000 RPM would come in a little above 3000 (specifically 3150).

Hope this helps.

jb879123

wow. Thanks for articulating what I've always felt through the pedals. I love knowing the logic and science behind why things are the way they are. AWESOME!

94eg!

Here. I made a map of the manual trans from the 05. I don't know if the HypeS is different.

http://www.teammfactory.com/gearcalc...=0&trannytype=

And here I made a map of the Manual (red) vs the Auto (blue):

http://www.teammfactory.com/gearcalc...ission+1+%26+2

I love gear calculators. This one is a great way to test the accuracy of your speedometer too. My civic speedo is off by 5mph. At a true 65mph it indicates 70.

ohsixMTee

iTrader: (2)

Is that check valve to blame for the slight delay in gear grabbage?

sourial84

iTrader: (1)

I am so suprised when test driving my car the smooth shifting is what sold me I never been in a manual car that shifted like an AT I have no problems with my clutch chugging or any of those issues in 1st gear i take off at a little over 1.3ish maybe 1.5 rpms but never @ 2 b/c at that pt your riding your clutch it could maybe be the driver( dont mean to offend anyone thats older than me or anything).... I also heard to test your clutch if you start in 3rd gear and the car moves then your clutch is good dont know how true it is I mean it worked lol but never had a car where the clutch was about to go

SouthernBoy

If you are shifting quite aggressively or speed shifting then yes, it will delay quick and sudden engagements and here is why.

Our clutching system makes use of a friction disk with a solid hub instead of the common coil spring hubs. Those coil springs serve two primary purposes: to reduce chatter and shutter, and to reduce shock to drive train components. Since our friction disks are solid, two other mechanisms are employed to do this work. A dual mass flywheel and a clutch delay valve. One might think that Honda/Acura would have stayed with something far more simple and proven in its design but the didn't.

SouthernBoy

Older?? Bet I'm quite a bit older than you and I don't buy cars for my persoanl use with automatic transmissions (have once, but that was it).

Second, "I also heard to test your clutch if you start in 3rd gear and the car moves then your clutch is good" is not going to tell you if your clutch is Ok... especially in a manual TL. There are far better ways to do this.

Lastly, please improve your writing when posting. It will make it easier to help you and answer questions you may have.

Welcome aboard.

rockstar143

iTrader: (6)

Southern Boy, thanks for sharing, I'll probably add a little slack to my clutch back, just to be safe.

ohsixMTee

iTrader: (2)

Thanks for the explanation, yep, I notice this during aggressive shifting. It is primarily observed going from 2nd to 3rd, almost makes you think your clutch is slipping a bit. Which very well could be but I don't think that's the cause...

LIQUID0401

I've never had a issue driving my TL. The clutch is easy as warm pie. My last car I had a evo with a twin disk clutch. Took me awhile to smooth out the "evo dance" trying to take off in 1st gear.

ez12a

I too have heard the G35/350z are hard manuals to drive smoothly. I'd like to try one out one day and see for myself though. I drove my uncles 300zx TT and that had a very vague clutch feel. Obv that's not necessarily applicable to the much newer g35/350z.

When i lived in newport beach during college in the mornings I would always hear our neighbor with a g35 6MT having a relatively difficult time backing out of his space based on the fluctuating tones of his exhaust lol. rev up, down, rev up, down.

mau108

Well to update, I'm still learning but haven't stalled in months! However my take off still is not as smooth as I would like it (sometimes it is sometimes not).

I drove a late model VW GTI and the clutch is a lot easier to grasp on that vehicle but then again the clutch "felt dead", hard to explain in words how it felt but it was very light and easy.