mau108

The TL is the first manual car I've owned. I've been driving it for 2 weeks now and I still can't get rid of the jerk when I release the clutch in 2nd. Really starting to piss me off.

I had time right now so Id rove around to see if I can get rid of it changing my style and the only way to do is release the clutch very slowly but when you have traffic behind you and you get the green to go this could mean very slow take off (pissing off the auto drivers behind me :P or the better manual drivers)


Any suggestions? Also want to ask what rpm are you starting off in in 1st, for me I feel I have to rev the motor to just under 2K and release the clutch slowly to take off smooth but it sounds way to loud.

Advice advice! I really don't want to prematurely wear down my clutch and damage my drivetrain.

luder917

iTrader: (1)

Alot of guys here are having that "problem" including myself. Check out thus thread here:
https://acurazine.com/forums/3g-tl-performance-parts-modifications-112/113-removal-slave-cylinder-check-valve-734300/

justnspace

iTrader: (1)

The TL was the hardest car for me to learn the clutch.

I also did the check valve delete.

Jarek06TL

To be honest just give it time and it will kinda go away. I ve been driving MT for 8 years (never owned an automatic) and it still sometimes happens to me. So just give it some time, also dont let the clutch out to slowly cuz you dont want to burn your clutch.

I usually shift at 2500 rpm every time I shift no matter what gear Im in. But for best economy you shouldnt go over 3k

2 weeks of owning a new car is not enough to get to know the clutch and gas. Just drive some more and "clutch control" will become a 2nd nature to you.

P.S maybe you should try shifting a little faster, because once you are at lets say 3k rpm in 1st gear then you press the clutch, shift to 2nd and in that time that you are shifting your rpm go back down to 1k then its hard to disengage the clutch smoothly.

AirForceFX

I feel ya. I still haven't found an great way to properly get out of 1st and 2nd slowly. If I'm being aggressive, I can get smooth, crisp shifts.

I find that in 1st, I can almost get the car to stalling before I give it a oddly high(er) amount of power than normal. 2nd is always jerky unless REALLY slow, but as you mentioned, that's annoying.

Dunno dude! More power is always a solution, but I'm just now getting the hang of being slow and smooth MOST of the time.

jpgayan

I've owned 13 different manual transmission cars in my 19 years of driving and the TL is by FAR the most difficult to master. Sentra/Stanza/Civics/Accords/Miatas/Maxima/Camaro's were all pretty easy to get down in a few days. This thing is a PITA. Between the odd clutch take up and the torque steer it's less than fun in first gear.

JTS97Z28

iTrader: (4)

Its funny you made a post about this because I was driving my new to me 08 TL-S 6mt home from work tonight and I was screwing it all up big time. Jerking the crap out of the car mainly going into 2nd. First is ok but I either seem to bog the car down or give it just too much gas and it seems like im riding the clutch. I was driving home just now and im like WTF is going on here and I have owned many manual tranny cars. This manual is easy to drive but seems hard to master. Ahh well hopefully it gets better after more time behind the wheel.

James

ez12a

RPMs drop slower than "normal" with the fly by wire system.

Instead of immediately releasing the clutch, take some time doing so and let the RPM drop near where it should be. Also when you release it, release it slow.

I've noticed the 1-2 shift is the slowest shift. Shift at a higher speed in 1st before going to 2nd. Starting off RPMs in 1st I try to stay as low as possible w/o stalling the car, typically under 1.5k, as close to 1k as possible. Easier on the clutch. I dont hold the RPMs high and then release the clutch. As you gain experience you will be able to engage the clutch without having to "pre-rev" if you will. You'll learn to butter the throttle and clutch to get moving at a lower rpm.

you guys havent driven difficult unless you've driven an E46. That is the hardest to master as far as i've experienced. The TL was a cakewalk compared to that.

TL_Trooper

I always find myself doing that. I owned a Scion tC prior to the TL I got in Feb and I realized that on a cold start, when I don't allow it to warm up all the way, no matter what I do it jerks more than I want it to. But when I warm it up all the way or at-least for 5 minutes, and add just a little extra gas than normal when coming out of 1st n 2nd ..it shifts smoothly. Its funny because I actually got used to the clutch lol ..the gas is a bit tricky for me at times. Too much or too little ..it varies.

To the OP, try playing with gas pedal pressure application. Might be it?

ez12a

i've also noticed the first throttle application starting my TL up in the morning usually sends it up abnormally high. i can just put a tiny bit of throttle and it'll react pretty dramatically. However after that initial bite it mellows out to normal.

SouthernBoy

You may want to read this thread and then ask questions if you are of a mind (start from the top).

https://acurazine.com/forums/showthr...9#post12753299

Starting off from a stop with 2000 RPM is normally too high (I say normally because there could be times when you have to do this but keep them to a minimum). Your goal should be not more than 1500 RPM and preferably around 1000 to 1200. You want to get your clutch out as quickly as you can with a minimum amount of engine speed and do this without bogging the engine or jerking the car, or riding the clutch any more than absolutely necessary. I know this sound like a tall order, but this is what I do virtually every time I drive my '04 manual TL. The key is doing it smoothly without any undue slipping or jerking or bogging and being consistent.

If you are experiencing jerking with your 1 -> 2 shift, then you are either quick shifting or are allowing too much time (lag) between your shifts. If you shift too quickly when you let the clutch out, engine speed will not have dropped off enough to match wheel speed in the higher gear (the ratio spread between first and second is wide). If you wait too long to complete you shift and engage the clutch, engine speed will have dropped off too much and the jerking is the result of the wheels having to pull the engine speed back up. A third cause is hitting the throttle too soon or too much just before you engage your clutch.

To time your shifts, watch your tach. Do this until you pick up the timing and can perform your shifts smoothly without watching the tach. It is never good to shift into the next higher gear and then apply throttle while slowly releasing the clutch. Avoid doing this because what are are doing is riding your clutch. The ECU's in our cars have algorithms which will hold engine speed for a moment (about 2 seconds) to match wheel speed for the next higher gear in your upshift. While this might seem a neat feature, I would advise you not to rely on it as it could become a habit. Shift timing is a far technique to use.

The reason a number of folks have had more difficulty adapting to the clutch in the manual TL is due to several things. The pedal travel is relatively short with, of course, an even shorter takeup (takeup is the distance the pedal travels from initial enagement to complete engagement). Second, initial engagement occurs pretty close to the firewall stop pad.. usually within two inches. Next is the fact that the distance the pedal travels from initial engagement to the point where enough clamping pressure is being exerted on the friction disk to move the care is also pretty short. This makes the clutch feel "touchy". Add to this a rather quiet engine and you have the makings of a difficult learning curve.

Personally, I find the clutch in my '04 TL to be great. A very nice feel, very predictable, and smooth.

Now once you folks master your upshifts, it will be time to move on to double clutching your downshifts to save both your clutch and your synchronizers.

SDSilverM3

The TL-S 6MT is probably the trickiest clutch I've ever driven... and it's OEM. I've driven everything from 3 puck, 4 puck, twin discs, ceramic, etc and this is one I'm still having issues with. Just doesn't feel consistent and the clutch delay valve doesn't help with the inconsistency. I'm going to give it 2 more months and if I still can't get comfy with it, that thing is coming out.

SouthernBoy

If the clutch delay valve is not failing and you driver your car normally, you mostly likely will gain nothing by removing it. That valve only comes into play when shifting aggressively... as in getting the clutch out quickly and under WOT conditions. So if nothing is wrong with it, I would suggest leaving it where it is.

If I had to answer which TL clutch anomaly probably causes people the most problems, it would probably be the fact that there is not much takeup from the point of initial engagement to the point where sufficient pressure is exerted on the friction disk to start moving the car. Most people are accustomed to more pedal travel (takeup) during this phase of releasing the clutch. But the TL can be somewhat unforgiving in this area. Add to the a fairly small V6 engine without a lot of torque right off idle and it's easy to see how someone would be prone to overreving or bucking and jerking the car when starting off.

As I mentioned, I like the clutch action in my '04 TL. My previous car was a 2002 Altima SE (yes V6) and the pedal travel and takeup on that car was greater than on the TL. Also there was more distance between initial engagement and getting things going with it, which made it easier for many people to get use to and like.

There is one other factor which might have an effect on people with the 3G TL. Our clutches have self-adjusting pressure plates. This tends to keep the clutch from getting that "broken in" feeling. In other words it will tend to feel the same at 50,000 miles as it did at 10 miles, providing the operator hasn't done abusive damage to the thing. I just turned 83,000 miles on my '04 yesterday and if you were to drive it, you'd swear it had a new clutch installed recently. But it still has the factory delivered unit in it.

JTS97Z28

iTrader: (4)

We are getting input from both TL-S 6mt drivers and base 6mt drivers. Just wondering is there any differences between the the two as far as gearing, type of clutch etc etc? Just wondering if we are dealing with two slightly different vehicles as far as driving is concerned. On my early 20 mile drive to work this morning I was messing around with the car more and it seems for me the most optimal rpm to shift the TL-S at is around 2700rpm for 1 to 2 and 2 to 3 shifts for normal driving situations. I still found myself being very inconsistant with starting out in 1st gear from a stop. Its going to take some time to work the clutch and gas perfectly everytime. Although when it is done perfecrtly it can be very nice and smooth. Anything beyond 2nd gear is simple and smooth its just those two damn first gears that are getting me! Driving my 505hp C6 Z06 is cake compared to this thing lol.

James

mau108

I feel the Drive by wire is very sensative, I'm used to old school throttle cable setup and find with the TL it's hard to rev exactly where you want to be where as with my old prelude I can feel where I exactly want to be.

I don't do the 2k rev and clutch release from start all the time but I find in my regular driving I don't rev enough and when I release the clutch the revs drop below 700 (i.e. stalling area)

I will eventually get it (I haven't stalled in the 2 weeks and this is with stop and go traffic) but I just hope I don't damage my drive train in the process of learning :P

BTW I've started down shifting, rev matching but not double clutching (I'm guessing that is clutch in, put in neutral, clutch out, rev, clutch in, in to lower gear then release clutch??...that is way tooo much work for the times I need to downshift usually stopping at very high speeds where I feel I'm overloading the brakes but to do all that would be horrible on my foot :P)

SouthernBoy

No, I'm pretty certain the clutch and transmissions in the '04-'06 and the TL-S versions which followed are the same. I drove a used TL-S (don't recall whether it was an '07 or an '08) and except for the somewhat sloppy shifter, which was probably due to the previous owner, it felt pretty much the same as my '04.

A major difference between your Z06 and the 3G TL is the huge difference in torque and the fact that the TL does not have a close ratio manual transmission. Yes, I know their ads and brochures say they do, but they don't. The ratio spread between first and second gear is pretty wide and that alone keeps if from being a close ratio box.

The 3G TL first and second gear ratios are 3.93 and 2.48 respectively. The Z06's are 2.97 and 2.07 for first and second gear. This means that you have to wind the engine up higher in first gear before shifting to second in the TL, otherwise, you could be in danger of lugging the engine or jerking the drive train.

SouthernBoy

Watch your tach until you develop the proper feel for the desired engine/wheel speed combination. I still watch my tach when the need arises and it does several times in my normal driving.

Rev-matching, when done well, will significantly reduce clutch wear, but it will not reduce synchronizer wear. Double clutching does both. Your DC description is pretty much right on. Make it a fluid motion and once you get it down, you'll know it because you will not even feel it when you release the after completing the downshift. A passenger would not even be aware of what you just did. This is your goal. You should have the same goal for upshifts.

jungy4

My TL is my first manual as well. Reading posts from veteran manual drivers saying how our TL is one of the hardest cars to master kinda makes me feel good. I really didn't have much manual experience with other cars prier to this car.

As far as 1-2 jerking, I think the key for me was to get used to the right clutch friction point.

ez12a

:\ I must be alone in my sentiments about the 6MT.

The first thing i exclaimed when test driving at a dealer for the first time was how easy it was to drive haha. to me the friction point is huge, and relatively easy to modulate which makes it forgiving imo.

I told the salesman that my dad's bimmer was way harder. It wasnt much different than my '93 integra with a cable actuated clutch.

It just takes time and practice. Once you get the feel of it it's pretty cool. And it does help listening to the engine. I find myself turning down the music once I get off the highway.

SouthernBoy

To jungy4 and ez12a;

What you are referring to as the friction point is the initial engagement point... right? Anyway once people probably do when they hit this point, and it occurs early on in the clutch pedal takeup, is to continuing letting out the clutch as they have been accustomed to doing in other vehicles with manuals. However, doing this with the TL can cause jerking, stalling, or the driver to tip in too much to the throttle thereby overrevving the engine (bad). One you hit the initial engagement (friction) point, there's not much more distance the pedal needs to travel before the car starts to move. It gives the impression that the clutch is grabby or as I mentioned earlier, touchy.

About eight or nine years ago, a neighbor of mine had an SVT Focus. It had to have the shortest clutch pedal travel and takeup I have ever experienced. VERY touchy.

Legend2TL

SB, this a very rare moment for you but the clutch for the 04-06 6MT is different from the 07-08 TL Type-S. I remember they made changes to the clutch, pressure plate, and IIRC the pressure plate as well. You are correct in the transmission is the same.

rockstar143

iTrader: (6)

You can take a 17MM wrench and adjust where the pedal sits in relation to the engagement point. I think they give it the extra 2 or 3 inches of extra play for people that rest their foot on the clutch at a light or ride the clutch. You can make the clutch feel tight.

That said, I initially did not enjoy how much I had to baby the clutch upon release in 1st and 2nd and did the checkvalve removal. I immediatley felt the car drive the way I felt it should have. As far as residual effects, I'm hoping there aren't any and it's been almost 2 years without issue for me.

ez12a

Yea, perhaps my integra's clutch was more touchy, I felt that the friction point was "huge" in the sense that it would continue to slip through a bit of (albeit relatively miniscule) pedal travel before getting fully engaged.

Easily enough for someone to avoid stalling if it should ever almost occur. I have yet to stall my car. But obviously the feel is relative for everyone as my dad driving it home for me after I bought it, stalled. Probably used to his E46.

And someone mentioned that the throttle is hard to manipulate/"too responsive". I would rather have that than an unresponsive throttle such as the one found in the E46. It actually lags upon initial throttle app, vs. the TL. E46 is a nightmare to drive relatively speaking. You could poke the throttle with your foot and it would rev like it was yesterday.

edit: the more I think about it, the integra's clutch was indeed touchy since chances are one of the springs used to dampen the clutch plate fell out (thats what I get for trying to teach people manual), preventing proper movement. it is very touchy. Guess that's good for me then ha.

TheDingo

My friend explained it to me like this. The TL likes quick, deliberate shifts. This is absolutely the most true from the 1-2 shift. Shift it fast and get on the gas harder than your brain says will be okay and the car reacts just like any other car would do with a normal every day shift. It's really weird but it works. I've had my TL for about a month and a half and I FINALLY just figured out how to drive the damn thing without getting pissed off at myself for driving like a newbie. This car is absolutely the most challenging car I've ever driven to get consistent flush shifting in.

rockstar143

iTrader: (6)

^^^you can adapt to the car...
or you can really make a statement and make the car adapt to you
Ha ha...glad you got it figured out. I hated it for the first few months and don't know what would have happened if I had just adapted. I'm happy now though, that's for sure.

justnspace

iTrader: (1)

^for the first few months, I thought I had bought the wrong car for me.

SouthernBoy

Really? Hey thanks for the correction... I do appreciate that. Do you happen to know what changes were made?

SouthernBoy

Your friend is wrong. No car likes quick shifts and the reason is obvious. Let's say you're upshifting from first to second gear and you wind out first gear to 3500 RPM (speed limit is 45 and you need to accelerate a bit more than in a 30 MPH zone). When you depress your clutch your road speed is going to drop some but because of the huge difference between the ratios of first and second gear (3.93 vs 2.48), in order for a smooth transition to occur, your engine should be turning around 2200 RPM for second gear. A quick shift is not going to allow sufficient time for engine speed to drop from 3500 to 2200 so the result when the clutch is engaged after the shift will be a jerk or jolt to the drive train. But more importantly is the increased wear you will be placing on the synchronizers as they attempt to slow the lay shaft for the impending upshift.

TheDingo

I get what you're saying but it delivers a smooth shift from 1-2 without beating on it and it definitely doesn't jerk the car. Maybe quick and deliberate is the incorrect wording and I didn't understand it at first either because it sounds like you're beating on the car. However, this is not the case. After playing around with it and getting more consistent w/ the 1-2 shift, I started understanding more of what he was saying.

Typically, I wind 1st gear out to 2500-3000rpm before shifting. If I am driving grandpa I shift more slowly for a smooth transition. Basically, I'm referring to normal driving.... the point between "beating" on the car and driving like a grandpa. I think it's a combination of shifting quickly, the clutch naturally bringing the RPM down and acceleration that makes it work.

dallasjetfan

This makes me kinda not want a 6MT TL. I have driven many, mostly VW, MT's and I have the VW is super easy to learn and has great feedback. Right now, I am trying to decide between a TL and VW GTI.

ez12a

this goes without saying you should test drive a 6MT TL rather than relying on opinions posted here.

Unlike a lot of people on this thread, I found the TL to be easy. It's all relative. It might be fine for you too.

dallasjetfan

True, but they are extremely hard to find so far. I prefer a MT, but I see the TL more as a luxury car than a performance car.

Tehvine

I got used to the weird ratio between 1 and 2 and can shift smoothly. I think if that "rev hang" feature was not present, many more people would not have the issues with 1st to 2nd. I believe it is the biggest cause of 1 to 2 harshness. I'm curious how a lightweight flywheel affects this on our cars, maybe someone that has one can chime in.

SouthernBoy

If you upshift normally, the "hang" feature won't even come into the picture. In fact, I just tested this a few hours ago on a level piece of good two-lane road. As for the ratio spread between first and second, this is quite common with modern cars for basically two reasons: 1) smaller engines with less torque need to get the car moving from a stop and a lower gear ratio is their best friend, and 2) most cars today are capable of much higher RPM ranges than they were 30 years ago so the manufacturers take advantage of this with transmission gear ratios and more forward speed gears.

SouthernBoy

Me too. I never had a problem either with the two I test drove on my purchase day and then on the way home. I found it to be fine and very much to my liking.

SouthernBoy

The actual classification is Luxury Sports Sedan (I think that's right or is it Performance Luxury Sports Sedan, or some mix along these lines). I have a print out of the award the car received in 2004 for this category from MotorWeek Magazine.

SouthernBoy

Oh, Ok. The idea is to have engine speed match wheel speed at the moment your clutch comes out after the shift.

friesm2000

iTrader: (4)

PRACTICE PRACTICE PRACTICE, and just driving to get better is about the only way

btw wife learned to drive manual fairly well in like a month (bought a subaru WRX, and basically was like here you go... lol)

she still rides the clutch a bit much at times though, but it's not like they are that hard to replace though (at least for me)

btw i can be just as bad on clutches at times also (but that is more from aggressive/sprinted driving for me, then just taking it easy like her)


yeah not the easiest car/clutch combo to learn on, much easier clutches to learn on out there


and yes the clutch valve delete, does help to make it easier to drive smoother, due to the clutch responding to your foot exactly, instead of being delayed in engagement

to everything


and about happen to me also, i still stall the car occasionally, when i am not paying attention really and release the clutch too fast, but i just push it in restart the car, and off i go, becomes second nature to do things like that

friesm2000

iTrader: (4)

the entire drivetrain nothing will really be damaged especially at lower revs


now the clutch, might be a different story, new driver (or at least new manual drivers) don't tend to be very nice to clutches (but being that you have a few years does help you in that you are not trying to concentrate on driving also, like a teen driver just learning to drive also

friesm2000

iTrader: (4)

do you mean the 12mm nut that locks the adjustment rod in place underneth the dash, up on the pedal?

if so, there is a reason for that freeplay, and that has to do with so that the master cylinder can fully come back, and open up a passage way into the reservoir and release all pressure on the clutch and throwout bearing, because otherwise as the clutch fluid (brake fluid really lol) expands it will push on the clutch harder and harder, and basically can cause it run partly disengaged causing to an early death due to it slipping unintentionally
but also the throw out bearing is not designed to always be engaged either, so it needs the fluid to release all pressure on it



btw because of my aftermarket clutch i have in my car, i actually carry a 12mm wrench in my car, so i can adjust as needed, because too loose, and i can't get it into reverse, and too tight all the pressure does not release fully
and i can actually feel a difference once the depending on the temp outside with how it feels, cause a half turn of the adjustment rod is enough to change if it releases all pressure in the hydraulic system, and if i can get into reverse or not