harddrivin1le

THAT doesn't tell "the story," either, because it NEGLECTS THE TORQUE CONVERTER.

The REAL "story" MUST INCLUDE THE TORQUE CONVERTER (in an automatic) if you wish to compare TOTAL torque multiplication of an automatic car vs a manual car.

harddrivin1le

Originally Posted by brahtw8
"...but apparently he could not let that stand, so he went and found an article about drag racing and automatic transmissions with high-stall torque lockup converters, from which he took an isolated paragraph and used it to try to insinuate that I had somehow provided an incomplete answer.

The entire article is reprinted below, and does not make the conclusion that he has implied, which is that you need to multiply the effective gear ratio by a factor of 1.5 to 2.2 for an automatic transmission because of the effect of the torque converter. That is of course simply ridiculous and easily disproven by simply comparing the effective gear ratios of the TL 6MT and 5AT, which do not support a disparity on the order of 1.5 to 2.2 times."
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Go ahead and compare them for us, being sure to INCLUDE THE TORQUE CONVERTER'S MULTIPLICATION FACTOR FOR THE AUTOMATIC CAR!

You said that you could "easily disprove [my] claim by simply comparing the EFFECTIVE ratios."

What are they?

You also seem to imply that the phenomenon is limited to "high speed" torque converters. It is NOT. ALL TORQUE CONVERTERS MULTIPLEY TORQUE - hence the name - TORQUE CONVERTER!

brahtw8

I was talking about gear ratios. The torque converter does not change the gear ratios. It may result in the application of more torque to the wheels, and gives a result that is essentially the same as putting in a lower, variable gear ratio, but the gear ratios are static and do not change.

harddrivin1le

Again, the "real story" (apples to apples, auto vs. manual) MUST include ALL torque multiplication!

http://www.islandnet.com/~victrans/Multiplication.html

"By torque multiplication, we mean that there is more torque on the turbine shaft than the engine is putting out because the vortex fluid is accelerated more than once. Torque multiplication is obtained at the sacrifice of turbine rotation. Actually, it's no different from the mechanical advantage which your get from gearing down. You gain torque by sacrificing motion.

Torque multiplication takes place anytime the turbine is turning at less than 9/10 impeller speed. At full stall, the stock AOD converter produces about 1.85-to-1 torque multiplication. As the turbine speed increases in relation to the impeller, torque multiplication decreases."[/QUOTE]

Swat Dude

This is Harddrivin's M.O. Check out the Chrysler post. He argues incessantly about something he is having a hard time understanding and then morph's into understanding and tries to act like he knew it all along. I think he should change his name to Backpeddling1LE.

harddrivin1le

http://www.islandnet.com/~victrans/Multiplication.html

"By torque multiplication, we mean that there is more torque on the turbine shaft than the engine is putting out because the vortex fluid is accelerated more than once. Torque multiplication is obtained at the sacrifice of turbine rotation. Actually, it's no different from the mechanical advantage which your get from gearing down. You gain torque by sacrificing motion.

Torque multiplication takes place anytime the turbine is turning at less than 9/10 impeller speed. At full stall, the stock AOD converter produces about 1.85-to-1 torque multiplication. As the turbine speed increases in relation to the impeller, torque multiplication decreases."[/QUOTE]

TLover

HD, in your world, are you EVER wrong?

Oh, and thanks for reposting over and over gain. I wasn't able to read it the first time, or the second, or the third. Man.

Swat Dude

http://www.e-testicles.com/

UminChu

shodog: Are you paying attention? Is it starting to look familiar yet?

brahtw8

If you can't understand what impact an across the board multiplication of the effective gear ratios by 1.5-2.2 times would have on the performance of the automatic TL, I can't help you.

Here is your math for 1st gear only (and I should check it first, but I'll assume you know how to use a calculator)

Auto: 2.563 X 4.428 = 11.35:1

Manual: 3.933 * 3.285 = 12.9:1

Now multiply the Auto's effective ratio by a factor of 2, to make it simple.

You are saying the automatic has an effective gear ratio of 22.7:1 in first gear? Do you have any idea what that would mean in terms of the maximum road speed for the car in 1st gear, or its ability to accelerate in 1st gear?

The manual first gear basically runs from zero to around 35 MPH. If the automatic was able to apply that same powerband from zero to 17 MPH, which is what you are saying, it would blow the doors off of the manual, at least until hit redline in 5th at 75 MPH.

Norse396

It's good to be able to revisit and consider options.

Exactly why I went with 5AT, it's easy to second guess after the fact which I do at times. I'm enjoying the car when it isn't trying to fall apart.

Norse396

All you would find are posts he edits after the fact which rarely say the same thing after the edit.... Not worth the time...

apwalsh

Yep, I feel the exact same way. I know he's done it, others know he's done it. Shit I'm sure he knows that he's done it! :grenade: It's not worth another minute to me.

harddrivin1le

You don't understand how torque converters work, DESPITE the fact that I've posted simple explanations like this one on mulitple occasions. Try focusing on the text in blue for a moment:

http://www.islandnet.com/~victrans/Multiplication.html

"By torque multiplication, we mean that there is more torque on the turbine shaft than the engine is putting out because the vortex fluid is accelerated more than once. Torque multiplication is obtained at the sacrifice of turbine rotation. Actually, it's no different from the mechanical advantage which your get from gearing down. You gain torque by sacrificing motion.

Torque multiplication takes place anytime the turbine is turning at less than 9/10 impeller speed. At full stall, the stock AOD converter produces about 1.85-to-1 torque multiplication. As the turbine speed increases in relation to the impeller, torque multiplication decreases.

svtmike

He understands exactly how torque converters work; that's obvious from his posts. Admitting as much wouldn't allow you to continue your rants, though, so instead you resort to personal insults. Classic trolling.

http://members.aol.com/intwg/trolls.htm

Mike

harddrivin1le

No, he clearly DOES NOT.

He implies that the resulting torque multiplication is a fixed multiply across the RPM band and throughout each gear.

Such is not the case.

Norse396

:tflamer: :argue:,

UminChu

Harddrivin1le has entered the thread. The only way to deal with trolls is to limit your reaction to reminding others not to respond to trolls.

brahtw8

You are so pathetic. I do not imply any such thing. In fact, I have been saying exactly the opposite. You are the one that has been saying that to compare the effective gear ratios you must multiply the automatic gear ratios by a factor of 1.5-2.2. As I have repeatedly stated, the effect of the torque converter is variable, and simple math demonstrate that you cannot simply multiply the gear ratios by a factor of 1.5-2.2.

You didn't understand that, because you didn't understand how gears work, and that if you halved the gear ratios (because again we are talking about ratios here, and although the number gets twice as large, that number is actually at the bottom of a fraction) you would also halve the MPH range that each gear operates in.

That basic and fundamental misconception is repeatedly demonstrated in the above posts, and your attempt to change history now will not be successful. Your above posts have spoken for you.

And while I am on the subject, despite the fact that my post last night completely floored you and stopped you dead in your tracks, you continue your diatribe this morning, by adopting the exact opposite of your previous position, which has been shown to be untenable.

I did not repost my victory or rub it in your face, because I am not like you, and will never be like you.

Your problem is you think a lot of information is better than a little bit of knowledge.

Grow up.

harddrivin1le

Translation: You never understood how torque converters work and you probably never will.

The converter's torque multiplication effect is neither fixed nor constant, but it IS significant, particularly so in low gear and from a standing start:

For perhaps the 30th time:

http://www.islandnet.com/~victrans/Multiplication.html

"By torque multiplication, we mean that there is more torque on the turbine shaft than the engine is putting out because the vortex fluid is accelerated more than once. Torque multiplication is obtained at the sacrifice of turbine rotation. Actually, it's no different from the mechanical advantage which your get from gearing down. You gain torque by sacrificing motion.

Torque multiplication takes place anytime the turbine is turning at less than 9/10 impeller speed. At full stall, the stock AOD converter produces about 1.85-to-1 torque multiplication. As the turbine speed increases in relation to the impeller, torque multiplication decreases.

harddrivin1le

Go read what I wrote WAY BACK in post # 51:

Here, let me help you:

But I didn't understand that until you told me ~ 24 hours and ~ 50 posts later?

jrogers345

??? trying to fall apart??

Can you explain??

Norse396

So in this forum you tell everybody how wrong they are, in the TSX forum you told everybody how wrong they are and on ModernMusclecars you do the same thing and on ClubTSX and again on TSXclub you did the same thing and at all those places you were banned because instead of adding to peoples answers or admitting that people may say the same thing in different ways you insist on forcing your opinion as the only viable one allowed. You're completely shocked when people don't agree with you after posting untold amounts of links...

It took awhile before you got banned, showing that on average moderators tried to give you the benefit of the doubt.

You've lasted awhile here so if you're true to yourself you'll be banned from here sooner or later. You're batting 99% in the banned department, congrats.

harddrivin1le

I post factual links and discuss technical issues.

YOU continuously post crap like that and then suggest that it is I who should be "banned?"

brahtw8

Since we are revisiting posts, how about we take a look at what I wrote way back in post #67:

That is all that needs to be said.

You are now free to continue with your regularly scheduled rant.

harddrivin1le

Post 51 came before post 67...

brahtw8

There is a difference between posting quotes from the internet, and demonstrating understanding in your own words.

It was not until recently that you came out and said the effect was variable.

In any event, take a look at the posts after post #67, and ask yourself why you continued to argue the point if we supposedly agreed way back in post # 67.

Doesn't make sense, does it?

harddrivin1le

Why would I repeat what's CLEARLY stated in a link that's quoted in the same post?

Again, POST 51. The words in blue are my own. Pay special attention to the words "AT LOWER ENGINE SPEEDS."

Norse396

Yep, the felt in my third brake light is falling off, the third brake light itself is hanging down on the passenger side, the head liner is drooping on the passenger side, the glove-box plays taps and my instrument cluster sounds like someone left quarters in them.

This is the worst car I've ever owned rattle wise, I've found parts under my car seats and tools (which I'm keeping) and plastic covers on the windshield washer cover keep falling off.

Quality control is something that got completely missed when my car was built and frankly I'm sick of owning it already. Last night was the last straw as my wife had to hold the glove-box while I held the dash to get some peace and quiet from the non-stop rattles this car has.

brahtw8

The better question is why do you repeat everything you post? I can't answer that question for you, but I have my suspicions.

In any event, the above posts speak for themselves, and I have better things to do today then continue this pointless exercise.

Enjoy playing with yourself.

Norse396

We agree to disagree on this one, you know that.

What I posted was an opinion that didn't state anything except what you have done, which can't be disputed because as you know it's true. You have been banned from 99% of the places you use that screen name, God only knows how many other screen names you have that have been banned but that doesn't really matter here.

As usual you have your facts wrong, please show one instance where I ask that you be banned or that you should be banned. You can't because I didn't.
I said just be yourself and it will happen.... this, is fact.

RhodeRunner

Norse- it appears to be a maturity issue.

harddrivin1le

Because you don't read the original post(s). :clown:

The theory is that if I post them often enough you might EVENTUALLY read the.

UminChu

You have no idea if or when your repetitive posts, links or scans have been read or not. You just keep ramming them down everybody's throats whether they like it or not, and you continue to do so long after you've been asked to stop.

Clearly, you are in need of a new theory, as your old one is obviously quite flawed. Perhaps searching for a whole new theory is an overly ambitious project. Consider a more modest goal. Why don't you begin by simply searching for a clue. :clown:

harddrivin1le

Either they're not read or they are read but aren't understood.

I'm not "ramming" anything down anyone's throat. People are free to ignore my posts either by passing over them or by placing me on their "IGNORE USER" list. Why don't you pursue one of those options? :think:

TLover

Is it too much to ask that you stay on topic? And it's annoying when you post the EXACT thing post after post. You don't even give people time to read it -- or not read it. Once again you're distorting the truth to justify your actions.

harddrivin1le

Why don't YOU?

This guy made this statement way back on page 1:

Start screaming @ him because HE changed "the topic" (which I've been discussing even since).

UminChu

Continuing to post the same words, links and scans long after you've been asked to cease doing so is very much ramming down everyone's throat.

Ignoring you is futile. Your posts are quoted in others' responses to them. There are numerous individuals contributing to these threads whose posts merit respect and consideration. In spite of your determination to be this forum's chief troll and nuisance, I still find benefit in perusing threads that you've chosen to hijack.

harddrivin1le

THEN IGNORE ME.

TLover

So let me ask you this and I'll be done since this is supposed to be a 6mt vs 5at handling question:

Does that justify you going on and on about torque converters? And yes, it takes two to tango, so the guy arguing/debating with you is as much to blame. But you have a pattern of arguing/debating with different people in different threads about things have having nothing to do with the original topic.