SodaLuvr

Recently, I've been given three reports of ATF discoloration with the newer, post-recall 5-speed Automatics used in cars such as the Honda Accord V6 and the 3rd Generation TL. In all three cases, the transmission fluid turned brown and lost its red color, in one case even turning black, within 25-30,000 miles with the factory ATF.

My suggestion to all 3G TL owners on this forum is to check the level and condition of their automatic transmission fluid. If the fluid has lost its red color and has turned light brown, I would change the fluid immediately. If the fluid has turned black, I'd talk to your dealer first and ask them to investigate the cause of the "black" colored fluid, as this may be a sign of transmission failure.

I personally have no clue why the fluid is discoloring and turning brown so rapidly in these transmissions. It's possible that these transmissions run quite hot, and is rapidly reducing the life of the fluid by oxidizing it. The Honda ATF Z-1 is a petroleum fluid (Grp I or II basestock from what I've been told), and is not as resistant to oxidation or heat compared to the more advanced synthetic ATFs.

If that is indeed the problem, I suggest that all 3G TL owners clean the magnetic drain plug, and exchange the fluid in their transmissions in favor for a more robust, preferably synthetic ATF such as Amsoil Universal ATF for better oxidation resistance and a longer fluid life. One does not have to use a transmission exchange machine in order to exchange the transmission fluid; you can simply do it yourself by following these instructions I found. (Note that Honda transmissions don't use a drain pan; instead they use a magnetic drain plug).

A few users on this forum are running the Amsoil Universal ATF (Road Rage) and are experiencing slightly better shift quality. (He posted about it somewhere) The fluid should last longer than the Honda ATF Z-1 and will provide better oxidation resistance. Buying a case of a higher quality ATF such as Amsoil Universal ATF and doing a complete fluid exchange yourself costs less than $100 total. Using a higher quality fluid that is more resistant to heat is inexpensive insurance for our transmissions, which have a long history of transmission problems.

invincible569

Good read. Where is the best place to buy Amsoil Universal ATF?

SodaLuvr

Thanks...I rarely find good prices on Amsoil products at retail stores, thats only if I can find it. My suggestion would be to simply find ANY dealer who is willing to sell it at wholesale cost without a preferred membership. 12 quarts (1 case) of Universal ATF shipped (including tax) should not cost more than $90.

BTW, when you drain and refill the ATF initially by removing the magnetic drain plug, it takes 3.2 quarts to refill. The entire system holds 7.4 quarts, and you've already removed 3.2 thru a drain/refill, but you may still need to flush 8 quarts thru in order to dilute/remove all of the old fluid, hence the suggestion of buying 12 quarts.

Also, please be advised that all work you do on your car based upon anyone's suggestions are done at your own risk.

EDIT: Here are RR's instructions on completing the drain/refill portion of the complete transmission fluid change:
https://acurazine.com/forums/ramblings-12/anybody-good-xp-89064/

1sweetTL

Good Post Michael.

Thanks for the info!

I go have mine checked, I'd rather pay someone to change it though.

I am way too lazy.

PeterUbers

iTrader: (1)

After reading your post, I didn't even bother checking the color. I know that I drive my car very aggressively (i.e. I use SS a lot, hang out in higher rpms very frequently) ... therefore I just brought it in to Acura to have the tranny fluid changed. They're charging me $59.99 to do the change, so I'm assuming it's not a flush, just a change. But that's easy enough for now, I'll do another one in 10,000 miles.

Thanks for the tip.

scrb09

Thats better then the $175 my dealer wanted for the change (coming to think of it, I did not ask whether it was a flush or a drain, hopefully it was a flush)

anyways...as per reccomendations here...I changed mine a couple of months ago @ 20K to Amsol Synthetic...and plan to keep changing it along with my next 3-4 oil changes...found an Amsoil dealer through yellow pages charged me $25 for 3 quarts required for a drain/refill.

PeterUbers

iTrader: (1)

The only other problem with changing the fluid (tranny or oil) yourself is... where the heck do you dump the old fluid? Around chicagoland, there isn't any place to dump it anymore legally...

SodaLuvr

Does your city have a fluid recycling service? Try Jiffy Lube, see if they can help you. Some of 'em take used oil, ask if they're willing to take ATF.

KJSmitty

Check with your local "Auto Parts" stores. IE., every AutoZone I have been in has an oil collection tank for used fluids. ATF is fine. They usually check to ensure you're not dumping something extremely flammable like gas etc. is all.
Me/AutoZone have been doing it for years.. Kudo's to them for providing the service.

frenchnew

Dear Michael,

According to my calculations, you will need to do over 4 drains & refills to reach Amsoil recommendation of 90%.

please check my post in the following thread on page 1

https://acurazine.com/forums/showthr...0&page=1&pp=25

After the 1st Drain & Refill

3.2qts Synth (43.24%) & 4.2qts Honda (56.76%)

2nd Drain will flush another 3.2qts but only 43.243% of that (1.82qts) will be the Honda fluid concentration in the drain.

After the 2nd Drain & Refill

5.02qts Synth (67.84%) & 2.38qts Honda (32.16%)

After the 3rd Drain % Refill (Using the same calculations as the 2nd Drain)

6.05qts Synth (81.76%) & 1.35qts Honda (18.24%)

After the 4th Drain & Refill

6.63qts Synth (89.59%) & 0.77qt Honda (10.41%)

After the 5th Drain % Refill

6.96qts Synth (94.05%) & 0.44qt Honda (5.95%)

Best regards

frenchnew

tzakiel

Now, I thought 3g wasn't known (yet?) to have transmission problems, per se. I have heard about it a lot with 2g.

mickey3c

I guess it depends on what you consider a problem. If the 3g 5ATs last 100K then that might not be considered a problem.

The 2g and early 3g did have an oil jet installed and I heard the jet was later build into the 3g's tranny housing. I would not go more than about 20,000 miles without changing fluid. My impression is that one or two of the clutch packs do not get enough lubrication and that is the reason for the jet. Now maybe some clutch pack wear and heat causes the oil to discolor quicker.

Is it just acura having this issue? I have not seen it at all in other cars. Other car makers usually recommend 3 year 36K or more change intervals. I used to do a 50K change on my AT cars and never have a problem.

I would get my 3g drained and refilled annually and every other year do a complete flush. The last flush I did on my 2g was about 120 bucks...

KilroyR1

Shame on Honda for using donkey piss as ATF and putting owners through this once again. Double shame on them for making it such a PITA to flush the trans.

TBone2004

Since the DIY procedure throws a lot of the tranny fluid away, is it more economical to just change it more frequently using Honda ATF? If I change the Honda ATF every 15,000 miles is that good or is this Amsoil stuff good for say 30K miles?

Maybe that is my question -
How long between change intervals (via the drain & fill 3 times process) for each and how much can one expect to pay for each per Quart?

stock Honda ATF:

Amsoil ATF:

JetJock

When I had my 2002TLS, I just happened to check the fluid around 4500 miles. It was already brown. I dumped the car to get a '04TL 6mt. So far, the new owner hasn't had any tranny problems, but Michael is correct....any of you guys with the AT should check the fluid for color ASAP.

CFIMIKE

Acura makes very clear in their owner's manual that their OEM fluid MUST be used or your warrantee is history. So my question is; if a failure occurred while running non-factory fluid, would they know? I'm all for using a better fluid but let's get all our cards on the table here. Thanks in advance for some advice.

SodaLuvr

1) They can't deny a repair claim if you use a fluid other than Honda's Genuine ATF Z-1, solely because you use a different fluid. They must technically prove that the fluid was the cause of the failure before they can get you for a fluid-caused damage. If the fluid indeed caused the damage, Amsoil would pick up the bill in this case as they warranty their fluid in Honda ATF Z-1 applications.

2) It depends. Honda may be using a special tagant in their fluids which makes it easy to identify its fluid from others by using inexpensive tests. However, I'm personally not concerned about that as they can't deny a repair claim solely because I used a different fluid or interval.

Do a search for the "Magnuson-Moss Act" of 1975.

meathead

i took mine into acura b/c the fluid was light brown, they told me that the car would tell me when it needed to be changed. I think i'm gonna bring it back, ask them to do it under warranty, and make them document their recommendations if they don't. It is too early for this.

z06girl

yeah, I changed mine at 13,000 miles... currently have 18,500... I'm still good for awhile.
Thanks for the heads up!

TBone2004

can someone answer this? A website or store would be great. How much is a good price etc....

tzakiel

Sounds like a real pain to flush it 4 times? Eek. I don't even do my own oil changes, I wonder what I should do. Im at 7500 miles on my AT.

tzakiel

Is the AT fluid visible under the hood without much work? I shoul take a look at mine. Is it something you can see without a hassle?

scrb09

I was quoted $5 a Quart for Honda Z1 ATF (so $15 for 3 quarts drain/refill).

I bought 3 quarts of Amsoil synthetic ATF @ $25 total from a local Amsoil dealer...so there is a difference of $10for every drain/refill (not huge IMO)

scrb09

You can find an Amsoil dealer through the Yellow Pages. Here is a link to a nationwide search of Amsoil dealers...

http://yellowpages.com/sp/yellowpage...questid=804853

Ron A

You can check it by removing the dipstick and observing the fluid color, and by then wiping it on a clean white paper towel to better see the color.

The dipstick has a yellow handle and is located next to the battery and the air cleaner. You don't have to remove any covers to see it.

TBone2004

Hey wow - thanks for the help/link

EZZ

What if it says right on the inside near the transmission that if a certain fluid other than the manufacturer type is used, it will void the warranty. I believe a G35 owner experienced this when they did not use the proprietary J-matic and warranty was denied. Of course it says it all over the transmission so it was the owner's fault.

I believe the reason the warrant was void was that J-matic had a special weight and some added "ingredients" that other OTC oils did not. If Honda's ATF Z-1 has a special weight to it, Honda can claim that the proper oil was not used. Something to be aware of at least...

SodaLuvr

Well, they recommend using a Matic J ATF and so does Honda, but Honda recommends ATF Z-1. Laws prohibit the mfg from requiring a specific brand of the fluid, and the MFG cannot void your warranty just because you used a different brand of fluid.

If the fluid really were to cause the transmission failure (very rare), the fluid manufacturer will pick up the bill.

EZZ

True, however, the J Matic fluid may have a weight that no one else supports. At least that was the argument that I heard was the reason for warranty denial. Don't know if its true but if it is...its sneaky.

SodaLuvr

Just about any fluid can be reverse-engineered. The case with the Matic J ATF is that the fluid contains a very complex structure in regards to the friction modifier. If someone was looking for a better Matic J fluid, I'd use Specialty Formulations Matic J. Valvoline Maxlife ATF works in a pinch as well, but probably isn't the best.

scrb09

If the other ATF used claims that it is compatible with the J Matic then the car manufacturer cannot void the warranty because the other fluid manufacturer must have reverse-engineered and tested the compatibility.

In our case AMSOIL claims that its Synthetic ATF is compatible with Honda's Z-1.

Also just because you put a different ATF and the tranny fail does not give the car manufacturer the right to void your warranty, they would have to prove that the failure was due to the fluid, in which case the ATF manufacturer would pick up the check as MW said since they were claiming the ATF should work.

EZZ

I agree that in a perfect world it would be this easy but you'd probably have to get a lawyer and a lot of aspirin. Warranty denials are a pain in the rear and getting any money from any corporation is a job in itself. Also in Nissan's case, the J Matic tranny fluid is already a high quality synthetic so switching to a better brand is a moot point. It is a bit expensive but so are most high quality syns so either way, it probably doesn't benefit anybody to switch.

However, Honda's tranny oil in the past hasn't been the best type. I'm not sure if the stock stuff is syn but if it is, turning brown before 30k miles is kinda worrisome...

SodaLuvr

Honda's stuff is 100% petroleum....yet they still spec 100K intervals or thereabouts...

If I'm not mistaken, arbitration is an option when dealing with the manufacturer, which is low or not cost I think.

As for transmission fluid, remember that the chances of Honda finding out are close to zero...I highly doubt that the type of transmission fluid used would even be a concern in the event of the failure during the warranty period, as the MID rarely calls for an ATF change until well out of warranty. Even if the transmission did fail within an extended warranty period, they rarely go the extra step to investigate the type of fluid used unless there was something obviously suspicious. (i.e. purple colored fluid)

avs007

Having owned a 2G that had a tranny blow up, and now the owner of an 05', I can chime in here.

The oil jet on the 2G is a joke. It does NOT solve or fix any of our problems. That jet was installed because of a rare problem with the second gear shaft, that gets starved of oil. When my transmission blew up, (and everyone else's I talked to), was a case of the 3rd gear clutch pack self destructing. Honda/Acura has not resolved this issue. Last I heard, Honda/Acura shoved this problem under the rug, by redesigning the transmission on the 3G, which supposedly solves this particular problem, but it cannot be applied to 2G vehicles because of the lack of throttle-by-wire on 2G TLs. This makes it sound like the fix was just ECU trickery.

avs007

Since I own both a TL and a G35, I can chime in here. There is a huge difference between Infiniti and Acura on this point.

In my Acura's owners manual, it recommends ZF-1, but says you may use Dexron-III if no other fluid is available, but to flush out, and install Z1 ASAP.

Infiniti on the other hand. Actually says to never use anything other than Matic J, otherwise serious damage may occur.

Infiniti basically says you must use Matic-J. Honda doesn't make such a stringent statement. That makes it more open and gray, because how long is "ASAP"?

As for dealers trying to void your warranty.... Acura tried that on me. They tried to void my warranty, because I didn't flush the tranny fluid and/or didn't have the dealer perform maint items. I pointed out:

1.) Manual didn't recommend a flush until 105,000 miles on Schedule B, and 60,000 miles on Schedule A. I only had 38,000 miles at the time, so a flush wasn't even recommended yet.

2.) All the service items in the maint schedule, were listed as "recommended" and "should". These have different legal meanings than "must" and "required" (International Standards is my job, so I deal with this every day)

3.) Maint guide also only "recommended" the dealer perform the services.

After I pointed this out, they said: "Well, you should have us flush the fluid, because you need special equipment to do it on this car".

I responded: "Really? Show me where this is documented, because I have the Genuine Acura Service manual, and there is no such mention of such special equipment".

After this, the dealer backed down, and re-instated my warranty. (And later replaced the transmission)

Tennisjon2002

can someone show me like an official write up showing that honda at's suck and the fluid needs to be changed. My mom is at 30K on her 3rd gen and has decided that she is going to follow honda's recomendations

frenchnew

You are right about the no cost option for arbitration but if you loose you have no legal recourses anymore.

As far as Honda finding out, it could be very easy if they require the transmission to be sent back which I suspect they would do under warranty for failure analysis.

I do not doubt that there are better fluids out there then Honda's/Acura's but most of the time in these circumstances, the car owner is left with a refusal of warranty at the dealer and his only short term recourse is to pay the bill then take legal actions which means finding an expert witness that is a neutral party that will be willing to plead your case in court.

Then you might even have to take legal recourse against the aftermarket fluid manufacturers.

Believe me, I have seen this severall times and have been called in as an expert witness on 2 Cummins engines failures in Dodge Pickups and Chrysler refused the warranty(The Cummins engine in Chrysler's products is only covered by Chryslers and not by Cummins) because the customer had not used Mopar oil filters.

In both those cases , the customers won but spent a whole bunch of time and expenses to have their legal rights enforced.

On a related subject, my dad visited our local Honda dealer today for his first oil change and noticed that they were also offering Amsoil products (Syn Oils).

My local Acura dealer offers Mobil1.

Best regards

frenchnew

KJSmitty

If you are speaking of the BBB arbitration process, if you do loose, the only way you "give up" further legal recourse is if you, "in-writing" accept their desicion....

-- When the decision paperwork arrives and states something you dislike, you either don't respond at all or mark the "do not concur with judgment" block. This option/process is provided for the exact reasons you mentioned - so you can continue etc.

Been there done that..

avs007

That would be pointless, becuase the owners manual explicitely allows for the use of standard Dexron-III fluid. It just recommends against it, and says to flush/fill with Z1 ASAP. Since it's "allowed" they cannot void your warranty for using non-Z1. (At least this was the case for the 2G TL, I'm not sure if they changed the verbiage in the 3G's manual)

They could try to argue that you used it "too long", but what is the legal definition of "as soon as possible"? You could just say that you didn't have time because you were busy, and that would satisfy that argument.