rightwinger59

Greetings. I've posted a few times here, but this is my first thread.

Made a move from Salt Lake to Denver recently, and had to ditch my 2013 Honda CNG Civic because there simply aren't enough CNG stations here in the Denver Metro Area to justify hanging onto that car. Was able to unload the Civic for $8k, and found what appeared to be a very well-maintained 2008 TL-S with 74k miles up in Boise for $13k. Was willing to spend the extra $5k for the Acura since I've wanted one for a while, liked the low mileage, and because everything looked legit as far as the paper trail goes (no accidents, 2 owners prior to myself, maintenance records from dealerships for oil changes, timing belt done last year at dealership, etc.).

Well, as soon as I got the car I started doing some reading here, and did the following right off the bat:

• Swapped to full synthetic oil
• 3x3 transmission fluid swap - used Redline Type-F racing
• Replaced tranny pressure sensors (per posts here)
• Replaced spark plugs
• Replaced air filters (cabin, engine)

I've had the car for 5 months now, and the shifting seemed fine to begin with - especially after the ATF fluid swap. However, the car has gotten progressively worse since then. Currently the shift from 1-2 is clunky/jerky/hard, once warm the engine consistently revs to around 4k RPM before shifting to 3 (i.e., seems as though the gears are slipping during the shift?), and it has now started behaving (i.e., reving) the same way from 3-4. There have been a few times where the down shifting (while decelerating/coasting to stop - it's never done this while applying brakes) has been so hard it felt like I had hit something. No obscene noises yet, but I've found myself driving around trying to barely touch the gas since the car seems to shift better when I'm only accelerating slowly. Oh, and I'm scared to coast to a stop and trust it to downshift properly ever since I had that one, hard downshifting incident.

Took my pops for a ride last weekend and he said we really needed to take it into his transmission guy. So we dropped it off this morning and the diagnosis was that the transmission is, in fact, on its way out. Our guy didn't like the idea of using the Redline in the tranny, and suggested that swapping to the "Acura approved" formula *might* fix the issues, but he was highly skeptical about that possibility. Also turns out that at least one of the engine mounts has broken. Not sure if that happened while I had the car or before, and while it'd be really easy to blame the former owner for these issues (which is precisely what my pops did), I'm not sure I can do that given the maintenance records that were provided and the fact that when I swapped out the fluid for the Redline the tranny fluid in there looked very clean (no fragments or anything alarming). Also performed just fine after the swap.

Just gave my guy the go to rebuild the transmission and was just looking for a sense from the group here about the following:

• Just bad luck on my part? Seems like the general consensus, both from these forums and from my guy, is that the trannys in these Acuras are less-than reliable.
• Anyone else out there with a rebuilt tranny? If so, how long should I expect this to last? I like to think that I take good care of my cars, and plan on taking REALLY good care of this one (love driving it - when it's working properly! Heckofalot better than the I4 Civic I endured for the last 4.5 years), but sorta smarts to have to shell out $3.8k this soon into my ownership. I've seen some guys on here with 300k+ on their 2008 TL-S and was hoping to get there myself, but maybe not if the tranny is going to be this finicky!

Thanks for the input! Just needed to vent a little...

MyGuti

The fact that your TL is an 08, I would say this is bad luck. The 04-06 transmissions were known to be somewhat fragile, however the 07-08 transmissions were refined and are much more stable. I would have a close look at the maintenance records and see if any jobs were done recently. If so, you could get the dealership to check/warranty some work. (I would not mention any work that you have done yourself, simply because the dealer will most likely use that as an excuse to not warranty anything). You paid top dollar for this car as well, so having the transmission go out so quickly sucks balls. Did you double check your pressure switches? Just make sure those are clipped in and installed correctly. Your symptoms of high rev shifting sound irregular for these cars.

Im sure there will other members on here who will be able to chime in more.

horseshoez

iTrader: (2)

Right off the bat I saw a red flag in your post in that you used Redline ATF instead of the Honda DW-1. While this may or may not have been the cause of the transmission failure, it certainly didn't help things.

rightwinger59

Perhaps. Based on the threads in this forum I know there are a LOT of folks here who run Redline ATF and have had zero problems. That being said, however, there are others, like myself, who have followed suit and have had problems. Did the fluid cause the failure? Perhaps. But then you'd think that there'd be many more reports of Redline causing tranny failures on these forums.

So while I don't know if we can blame the fluid, it is definitely a wild-card in this scenario, and those contemplating an ATF switch will hopefully see this thread and take it into account when doing so. Will I be using Redline again? Nope. Not going to risk it and will be sticking with the recommended ATF going forward.

rightwinger59

I did check. Nothing related to the tranny, as far as I could tell, and even if there were something there, the dealer that did the work was in Boise and I'm in Denver now, so unfortunately can't could go ask them about it. Wish I could though!

Indeed. Definitely hurts. >.<

mb.3g

Your transmission is failing. I'm gonna try and be as kind as possible, but the amount of Redline Type F you used doomed your tranny. It is well documented not to exceed a 2:1 ratio of Type F fluid. At first the trans will feel like shifts are better, but as the detergents begin to break down after the first 5k or so the lack of friction modifiers from too much Type F begins to show, in your case hard shifts or "flairing". The transmission does need some friction modifiers to function correctly but by using only Type F fluid you essentially removed all of them from your trans. It sounds like it is too late to drain and refill to fix your problem.

vpasla1

The red flag for me is using only Type F Racing fluid. It has zero friction modifiers, and a higher viscosity (written by Redline), not sure how the viscosity differs from Z1 or DW1 tough. You should have at least used a mixture based on the main transmission fluid thread (D4/Type F/Racing), or maybe stuck to D4/D6.

I'm not saying the racing fluid caused the transmission failure but I remember reading in the main transmission thread that people had problems with only Redline Racing fluid in the past.

EDIT: mdnborg beat me to it.

rightwinger59

Thanks for the assessment. Your last sentence mirrors what my guy thought as well - getting different fluid in there probably won't fix the problem at this point.

For my own edification and in the hopes that others will see this thread, could you point to where the 2:1 ratio is "well documented"? I also wouldn't mind any sites/materials about transmissions in general so that I can get a better understanding of why the fluid itself may be responsible for the failure here. I did read quite a few threads about what type of ATF to use, and the Redline was usually the one that won out which was why I went that route. I (obviously) just didn't read enough - I was super excited about getting my hands on one of these cars and wanted to "treat her right." Looks like I failed - to both her detriment and my wallet's.

And just to clarify, when you say 2:1 ratio, do you mean Redline:Honda or 2:1 Honda:Redline? Thanks!

truonghthe

Redline Type F racing doomed your transmission and here how it come down play by play.



1. Type F ATF wasn't even recomended by Redline themselves, they recommended D4 ONLY.

2. You drain too much fluid and reintroduce too much new fluid at the same time (this can happen even you using the DW1) as too much ATF causing the clutch pack to swell up and since it swell up it change in fluid pressure.


In your case prove internet is a dangerous place to acquire information as you really have to navigate through the mine field. As in this case you learn the hard way which cost money and time.
3. People here always recommend a mixture of DW1 and Type F, NO ONE run just the Type F.

4. The 07-08 AT is robust and not by any mean its fragile as many member here has more than 200k miles on their original AT.


I own 3 TLs (1 Type S, 2 Base and a 06 RL) and I have not run into any issue with the AT AS LONG AS you keep changing the fluid with DW1 (3 quarts every 15k miles) and pressure switch (every 100k miles). My Type Slow has 68k miles solid miles through my ownership and yet it show no sign of "acting up".

mb.3g

I follow a 2:1 ratio of Redline Racing (Type F) to Redline D4 (stay away from the Lightweight Racing). I know of many people that run this same formula for the performance benefits in terms of shift quality, transmission longevity and reduced clutch pack wear. I would advise you to read through this thread extensively: https://acurazine.com/forums/third-g...ng-atf-834299/ Most people move away from the OEM Honda DW-1 (this fluid replaced the Z1 fluid) when looking to increase trans performance as this transmission fluid carries a lot of friction modifiers which help to encourage the transmission to actually "slip" into gear, promoting smoother shifts but at the same time also promoting clutch pack wear. With Type F fluids, friction modifiers are reduced, making gear changes harder and also causing unintentional transmission behavior, but clutch pack wear is kept to a minimum. I have seen many people complain that Redline ruined their transmissions however in most cases, the 2:1 formula was not followed.

rightwinger59

Thanks for the reply. I think the consensus here is that I am an idiot. :P

rightwinger59

Thanks for the follow-up post. I am reading that thread right now, but need to ask: Inaccurate suggests that lowering the % of Racing ATF might get rid of the flaring. This sounds like something I should try immediately before I proceed with a tranny rebuild. Is there anything in my description that suggests I am too late for such remedial measures? Or is eventual failure inevitable here? If so, what are the clues that are leading you to that conclusion? Thanks!

vpasla1

I would try a fluid swap with DW1, a 2x3 or 3x3 would be ideal, $100ish worth of fluid is worth a shot instead of a rebuild. Since you have no friction modifiers right now, it wouldn't hurt to introduce some to the current fluid. It may help, it may not, but if it does, you saved a couple thousand dollars.

But it may just buy you time temporarily as well and push the rebuild back only a little bit. Considering you won't know how much damage is done to the transmission until you open it up, it may just be better to rebuild it now and not have to worry about it again. Considering you want to keep this vehicle for the long haul.

rightwinger59

Yup. My thoughts exactly I will call my guy in the morning and hope he hasn't started yet. I'm wondering if he has changed any fluid, and if so, what tidbits he's found (if anything) in the fluid. The thread posted by mdnborg has been most enlightening - I wonder how in the world I hadn't found that before. Too much of a rush, I guess. I will report back tomorrow with what I find.

rightwinger59

[**UPDATE**]

Finished reading the thread recommended by mdnborg above. It is quite lengthy, so I will summarize it here with the hopes that other folks will avoid the issues I've had:

• Beginning sometime in 2010 or 2011, several members of these forums started experimenting with synthetic "Type F" or "racing" automatic transmission fluids ("ATF") in their third-generation TLs. The most popular brand was Redline, but others were discussed in the thread as well.
  • The main reason for these experiments concerned the levels of "friction modifiers" ("FMs") present in the stock, Honda recommended ATF, which was originally a product titled "Z1" but has since been replaced with "DW-1".
  • According to those advocating for the Type F fluids, Honda introduced too many FMs into the stock fluids in order to attain "butter-smooth" shifting, which leads to increased wear and ultimately reduces the life of the transmission in the TL. Type F fluids, by contrast, have less FMs, which leads to quicker shifting and hence less wear, thereby extending the life of the transmission (in theory). This post by Inaccurate is pretty much a great summary of the entire thread.
• The main question, then, and the main purpose of the thread linked above, was to determine the proper amount of Type F fluid to be introduced into the transmission.
  • Several users reported no issues using almost 100% Type F fluid in their TLs.
  • However, I would say that the majority of those using Type F fluids experienced "flaring" when shifting between 2-3 and even 3-4, just like I was.
  • Many users reported that reducing the level of Type F fluid to 65% or below cured the flaring issues.
• A detailed explanation of the mathematics behind the % calculations can be in this post. Otherwise, the first post of the thread has the proper formula for doing ATF changes with the aim of hitting the 65% mixture target. To date, many users in the original thread and this one have reported zero issues using the synthetic fluid mixture of 65% or below.

Having read the thread completely, I have to say that I believe the symptoms I was experiencing were probably due to the % of Type F I had in my tranny (79%). I am very curious as to whether another 1x3 change, using D4 to reduce the % of Type F fluid would have resolved the symptoms I was experiencing. Unfortunately, we will never know the answer to this as my guy has already started rebuilding the tranny (called this morning - they sure jumped on it quick!). It is quite possible, given the fact that at least one of the engine mounts was broken, that the transmission had pre-existing issues which were accelerated by the high % of Type F I introduced into the system. However, I did not notice symptoms until about 3-4k miles into the ATF fluid change, which is right in line with what others were reporting in the thread, and so my feeling is that I may have been able to correct them with a simple fluid change. Instead, I guess I'll have a new transmission to take care of going forward.

And speaking of going forward, I will probably hold off on re-introducing the synthetic fluids until the warranty on this rebuilt tranny has run its course (12 months or 12k miles). However, I find the arguments presented in the thread compelling and will probably reintroduce the Type F fluid in the future, for the reasons discussed in the thread. Thanks to those who replied here - I appreciated the feedback and hope others will find my experience useful and instructive.