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The Optimal Percentage of Racing ATF

Old 10-04-2011, 02:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Indy04TL View Post
Starting with Z1 last May, I did the following:

Refill # 1 2 qts Racing, 1 qt Lightweight
Refill # 2 2 qts Racing, 1 qt Lightweight
Refill # 2 2 qts Racing, 1 qt Lightweight

As I understand you, you are recommending doing a refill # 4 using 2 qts of D4 and 1 qt of Lightweight to bring the mixture down closer to the 65%. Am I reading you correctly?

As always, thanks for all the time and research you put into this!!

I will trust that you had a typo above and that you meant to say that you did 3 refills with the Type F.

Yes sir, you got it correctly.

After the Refill #4 with 2 D4 + 1 Lightweight, your mixture would be a 60% Racing mixture.

The key point is that you must get your Racing mixture to be 65% or less. You are currently at a 79% Racing mixture. So after the Refill #4, you will be safe with a 60% mixture. By the way, I consider the 60% to be the same as a 65%....... meaning that you will have the optimal Racing percentage after the Refill #4.
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Old 10-04-2011, 03:44 PM
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Sorry about the typo. Just wanted to double check. Like you said above, it is getting complicated with all the various combinations. I went 2 qts Racing and 1 qt Lightweight X 3 because of winter weather here in Indy. I changed the 3/4 switches at the same time. Have put about 6k on the car since then and I am very happy with the shifting now as compared to when I was running the Z1. I will give you my feed back after I do #4.

Again, thanks for keeping everyone up to date!!
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Old 10-04-2011, 04:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Indy04TL View Post
I will give you my feed back after I do #4.
After your Refill #4, there should be no major change from how it shifts now. Give it approx 30 miles or a day or two days after the refill for the new mixture to take affect before you judge it.

I will be looking forward to your feedback after the refill.

Last edited by Inaccurate; 10-04-2011 at 04:08 PM.
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Old 10-04-2011, 07:34 PM
  #124  
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Hey inaccurate, just wondering if you recommend changing right to the 65% racing fluid on a brand new transmission with 0 miles on it or break it in with whatever the dealer throws in it? Thanks!
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Old 10-05-2011, 04:59 AM
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Originally Posted by TampaJim View Post
Redline D4 could not meet the design specifications of DW-1, simply because it supposedly meets the Z-1 criteria. This isn't Neapolitan ice cream ... it has to be vanilla OR strawberry OR chocolate - not all of the above.

DW-1 is different than Z-1 in viscosity index ...
The difference in viscosity between DW-1 and Z1 is not what I would consider significant, except at very low temps, and please note that the viscosities at those low temps are COMPUTED, not specified by Honda. The viscosity of DW1 does not even approach the low viscosity of GM's Dexron-VI.

So I think that D4 could meet the USE requirements of either, if the user is willing to ignore the small difference in viscosity.

And I would guess that the lower vis for DW1 is only to get better gas milage. And not different enough from Z1 that a Z1 vis would harm a later model trans that is supposed to use only DW1 - but of course the latter is only a guess.

From the official Honda MSDS for both fluids, only the viscosities at 100C and 40C are given. The viscosities at the other temperatures are computed, see the NOTE below:
120C/ 100C/ ..40C/ .0C/ -20C -40C cSt at Centigrade/ Brookfield cP @-40C
5.12/ 7.06/ 29.49/ 158/ 553/ ...... = Honda OEM ATF-Z1 (discontinued)
5.07/
6.83/ 25.09/ 110/ 327/ ...... = Honda OEM DW-1 (Idemitsu Lubricants America)
..../ 6.00/ 29.80/ .../ .../ ...... = GM OEM Dexron-VI (Petro-Canada)

NOTE: the computed viscosities above, were computed using the following web site. I do not know just how accurate the web-site computations may be. Do be aware that the accuracy of the above computed values depends upon the number of decimal digits used, to make the computations. The web site below has various computation tables, and the number of decimal digits used in the computations, depends upon which table is used to make the computation. This can make a difference of 2 or 3 percent in the computed values.
http://widman.biz/English/Calculators/Graph.html

Originally Posted by TampaJim View Post
...
DW-1 is different than Z-1 in viscosity index and the combined additive package (there is one specific additive in the new formula that didn't exist in the older one). Idemitsu has designed the new fluid to address the new needs in the six speed automatic design and to replace the Z-1 with a better product.
The components listed for both DW1 and Z1, in the official Honda MSDS, are exactly the same. Of course, only the hazardous components are listed, hazardous as defined by the OSHA standard and by CAS-number. So all components, including the additive package, would not be listed. In any case, both ATFs are clearly only a 'normal' non-synthetic fluid, despite the repeated speculation that DW1 is a synthetic.

Only two components are listed:
Cresol compound: 0.1-1.0%
Lubricating Base Stocks 80-90%

Originally Posted by TampaJim View Post
...
DW-1 is different than Z-1 in ... and the combined additive package (there is one specific additive in the new formula that didn't exist in the older one)...
Since the Honda MSDS does not list the additive package components for either fluid, can you provide documentation or a link that does? and what is the 'special' additive in DW1 that was not in Z1? what is the list of components of the additive package for either fluid, and can you provide a link or other documentation for the components?

Originally Posted by TampaJim View Post
...
Idemitsu has designed the new fluid to address the new needs in the six speed automatic design and to replace the Z-1 with a better product.
There is nothing in the MSDS for either fluid to suggest that there is any difference between DW1 and Z1, other than viscosity, which in my opinion is minimal - see actual viscosity specifications above, taken from the Honda MSDSs.

---eof

Last edited by dcmodels; 10-05-2011 at 05:14 AM.
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Old 10-05-2011, 09:27 AM
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Originally Posted by the fenda rolla View Post
wondering if you recommend changing right to the 65% racing fluid on a brand new transmission with 0 miles on it or break it in with whatever the dealer throws in it? Thanks!
Is this a new car or an older car getting a freshly rebuilt transmission? It doesn't really matter. I am just curious.

Obviously, you need to let the shop use their fluid when they install the rebuilt transmission. You would not want to have them pointing the finger at you and your "special" fluid if something didn't work correctly with the rebuilt (unproven) unit.

I would drive with their fluid for a few days to make sure the unit doesn't have any obvious problems. Plus, driving for a few days will flush out any debris that might be in there.

After a few days, you can add the Racing fluid. I see no technical reason why you can't do the full-blown 65% Racing mixture.

All of the above applies to either a new car or an older car getting a freshly rebuilt transmission.

If this is a new car, then there is the issue of the trans have new gears. An argument could be made that the new gears need time to break-in. That is, new gears need time to become mated together. As a general rule, synthetic fluids and synthetic oils protect too well against wear thus preventing the parts from properly mating together.

Not using synthetic motor oil in a fresh engine is very important (vital) to allow the piston rings to lap/mate to the cylinder walls. However in the case of the new gears in a new trans, I feel (not a fact, just my opinion) that the gears will be just fine with the synthetic atf.

I did a quick google search on the topic of breaking-in an automatic transmission because I found your question to be intriguing. This reply is reflective of that quick search.
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Old 10-05-2011, 09:32 AM
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DW-1 is different than Z-1. The former has most definitely replaced the latter and the latter can not be used in 2011 and newer models. You most definitely would invalidate the warranty by using Z-1 (or an equivalent) in a newer vehicle.

DW-1 is a full synthetic (Group III). You are correct that the additive formula isn't listed on a PDS or MSDS and it won't be, it is a proprietary formula. DW-1 was developed in the summer of 2009 and went through extensive testing before being released to production, it is a better fluid and it is a different fluid.

BTW, there is a LOT that goes into modern lubricants. Approximately 70-80% are base stocks and the other 20-30% are additives. The information available to consumers is somewhat limited and one shouldn't rely on simplified data to make application decisions.
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Old 10-05-2011, 09:44 AM
  #128  
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I've added this post to the Garage.
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Old 10-05-2011, 10:16 AM
  #129  
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Originally Posted by mau108 View Post
I've added this post to the Garage.
Which post? The post above about DW-1 versus Z1? If so, please please provide a link to that thread so we can hopefully divert this off-topic discussion of DW-1 versus Z1 to another, more appropriate, thread.
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Old 10-05-2011, 02:38 PM
  #130  
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Hekp me out, IIRC I did a 3 X 3 about a year ago using 2 qts of D4 and 1 qt of racing on each fill. What percentage will I be at if I do a 1x3 with only racing fluid? Should I just stick to the 2 D4 and 1 racing? My fluid still looks red but I figure I'll just change it anyway.
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Old 10-05-2011, 04:31 PM
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Originally Posted by TLDude876 View Post
Help me out, IIRC I did a 3 X 3 about a year ago using 2 qts of D4 and 1 qt of racing on each fill. What percentage will I be at if I do a 1x3 with only racing fluid? Should I just stick to the 2 D4 and 1 racing? My fluid still looks red but I figure I'll just change it anyway.

You are currently at a 26% Racing mixture.

If you do your next refill with only Racing, then you would have a 56% Racing mixture.

Before I can recommend anything, I need to see what your goal is.

Are you willing to sacrifice the smooth shifts and live with shifts that can sometimes be a bit rough? The Racing fluid will make your trans live the longest but the shifts can be harsh sometimes. Also please be aware that the Racing fluid is not a recommend fluid for our TL. Not even Redline (the manufacturer) will recommend it for our TL. This is an unapproved and a renegade/maverick approach to making our trans to live as long as possible. I love the Racing fluid in my car because it makes the shifts to be phenomenally quick (racing purposes). I use the Racing fluid in my wife's 2003 RL to make the trans last as long as possible.

If you are not aiming for the ultimate trans life and don't want rough shifts, the Redline D4 would be a great choice. The Redline D4 is recommend by Redline to be used in our TL. In my opinion, the trans will live much longer on D4 than on Z1 or DW-1. But, the Racing fluid would make it live the longest in my opinion.

Are you interested in performance (beating others from a stop light)? The Racing fluid makes the trans to shift super fast. The D4 will make it shift moderately quick comapred to Z1.

Please let me know if you have more questions.

To help you to decide, I have included some links below. But feel free to post again if you want some help trying to decide.


Bad Transmission Findings-ALL OWNERS READ! URGENT (click here)
Time to change transmission fluid? (click here)
AMSOIL Synthetic Transmission Fluid VS Redline D4 ATF (click here)
Did a 3x3 today with Redline D4, with some first impressions (click here)
Advice for my first ATF change (click here)
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Old 10-05-2011, 05:46 PM
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Copied from another thread:

Pressure switches, non FM fluid, and flaring all go hand in hand. It's not the fluid directly causing the flares, it's a symptom of the switches. I won't discuss further because no one will read/comprehend it anyway. Something to think about.
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Old 10-05-2011, 05:47 PM
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^^^ I would love to read what you have to say....if you dont wanna post it up, PM ?
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Old 10-05-2011, 05:50 PM
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Originally Posted by swoosh View Post
^^^ I would love to read what you have to say....if you dont wanna post it up, PM ?
PM is fine, I'll PM you when I get home. It's fun discussing this stuff, not fun repeating it so I'm off this forum indefinitely. I just felt this point of view needed to be brought up.
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Old 10-05-2011, 06:00 PM
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Old 10-05-2011, 11:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Inaccurate View Post
You are currently at a 26% Racing mixture.

If you do your next refill with only Racing, then you would have a 56% Racing mixture.

Before I can recommend anything, I need to see what your goal is.

Are you willing to sacrifice the smooth shifts and live with shifts that can sometimes be a bit rough? The Racing fluid will make your trans live the longest but the shifts can be harsh sometimes. Also please be aware that the Racing fluid is not a recommend fluid for our TL. Not even Redline (the manufacturer) will recommend it for our TL. This is an unapproved and a renegade/maverick approach to making our trans to live as long as possible. I love the Racing fluid in my car because it makes the shifts to be phenomenally quick (racing purposes). I use the Racing fluid in my wife's 2003 RL to make the trans last as long as possible.

If you are not aiming for the ultimate trans life and don't want rough shifts, the Redline D4 would be a great choice. The Redline D4 is recommend by Redline to be used in our TL. In my opinion, the trans will live much longer on D4 than on Z1 or DW-1. But, the Racing fluid would make it live the longest in my opinion.

Are you interested in performance (beating others from a stop light)? The Racing fluid makes the trans to shift super fast. The D4 will make it shift moderately quick comapred to Z1.

Please let me know if you have more questions.

To help you to decide, I have included some links below. But feel free to post again if you want some help trying to decide.


Bad Transmission Findings-ALL OWNERS READ! URGENT (click here)
Time to change transmission fluid? (click here)
AMSOIL Synthetic Transmission Fluid VS Redline D4 ATF (click here)
Did a 3x3 today with Redline D4, with some first impressions (click here)
Advice for my first ATF change (click here)
My ultimate goal is longevity of course. I dont race, my car is a daily driver. Occasionally I gun it just to make it sure the power is still there
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Old 10-05-2011, 11:52 PM
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Originally Posted by TampaJim View Post
DW-1 is different than Z-1. The former has most definitely replaced the latter and the latter can not be used in 2011 and newer models. You most definitely would invalidate the warranty by using Z-1 (or an equivalent) in a newer vehicle.

DW-1 is a full synthetic (Group III). You are correct that the additive formula isn't listed on a PDS or MSDS and it won't be, it is a proprietary formula. DW-1 was developed in the summer of 2009 and went through extensive testing before being released to production, it is a better fluid and it is a different fluid.

BTW, there is a LOT that goes into modern lubricants. Approximately 70-80% are base stocks and the other 20-30% are additives. The information available to consumers is somewhat limited and one shouldn't rely on simplified data to make application decisions.
GrpIII is not full synthetic, it's a highly refined dino. Where did you find that this is a grp III?
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Old 10-06-2011, 01:25 AM
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Originally Posted by TampaJim View Post
DW-1 is different than Z-1.
...
DW-1 is a full synthetic (Group III).
...
What is the source of your statements?

The USA bottles of DW-1 do NOT state that the fluid is a synthetic, nor a semi-synthetic. The Canadian bottles state that DW-1 is a full synthetic. I am referring to the USA available DW-1, in my post above.

Other manufs state on the packaging if the product is a synthetic oil: Mobil 1, Valvoline, Pennzoil, RedLine, GM/ Ford dealer sourced oils, etc. It seems that Honda/ Acura would do the same, if indeed the USA version of DW-1 were a synthetic.
---eof
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Old 10-06-2011, 01:51 AM
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I have not seen any post give a (direct) estimate of 'how long' a 65% mix of Racing Type F fluid would 'last', in terms of friction modifier [FM] depletion, before developing a flare-shift problem.

My own experience may be of some help to others. My 85% Racing Type F and 15% (fresh) Z1 lasted for about 3500 miles before developing shifting 'flare'.

Note that how long FM will 'last' would depend upon the driving conditions, in my opinion. My own vehicle, a 2009 RDX, is driven 99% in city commute or short erands. So, lots of shifts at stop-and-go city driving with some hills, and temperature extremes (100 degrees in summer and 20 degrees in winter).

So for my driving style, and my emperical experience, I would expect a mix of 65% Type F and 35% Honda Z1, would last for 8200 miles, before developing a flare-shift problem.

Using Red Line D4 instead of Honda Z1, the FM might (probably would) last longer (more miles). I am guessing that the RL D4 FM is more stable, even if of a lower concentration, that the FM in Honda Z1. But that is only a guess.

This guess is based on the GM Dex-III versus Dex-VI specification, as stated by GM (same basic level of FM, the Dex-VI is supposed to be more FM stable for much longer ATF life).

Other than actually testing the particular mix to FM depletion (experiencing flaring), I do not know how to predict the 'life' of a particular mix for someone else.

I hope that the above would be of some help to others, in determining either the mix level of Type F you wish to use, or how long to wait between ATF changes.
---eof

Last edited by dcmodels; 10-06-2011 at 01:56 AM.
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Old 10-06-2011, 05:26 AM
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Originally Posted by I hate cars View Post
not fun repeating it so I'm off this forum indefinitely
your leaving us?
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Old 10-06-2011, 07:51 AM
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Originally Posted by libert69 View Post
your leaving us?
Don't worry. We'll [the forum] suck him back into the fray.
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Old 10-06-2011, 08:20 AM
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@dcmodels

The 65% Racing mixture was developed to be a permanent one-time fix against *EVER* having flaring or other shifting issues with the Racing ATF.

The FM do not wear out (break down) in my opinion. The FM are built to last for a very long time and normally do. However, the detergents have a *very strong* effect similar to a FM (Source: SAE Technical Paper). Acting like a FM is not the designed goal of the detergent, but an unintended side affect. And, detergents do break down with usage. According to my theory, the unintended side effect of the detergent acting like a FM does disappear within 6000 miles.

I might be wrong and time will tell. It is plausible that the 65% mixture could require periodic refreshing to revive the FM and detergents. I highly doubt this is the case although.

Please read over the second post of this thread more carefully. I covered this topic in great detail. I have reproduced it below (quoted) for your reference.


As good luck would have it, one week later after replacing the 3rd & 4th trans switches to no avail, it was time for an engine oil change. I always change my ATF every time I do an engine oil change. To my surprise, the flare was gone after changing the engine oil and atf (at this point I was still using all Racing ATF). This gave me a strong clue that the flare was related to insufficient friction modifier.

When I was originally researching the feasibility of using Racing ATF, I learned from one of the SAE Papers that detergents in the ATF will act like a friction modifier. The fresh detergents in my Racing fluid (that I had just added) caused my flaring to temporarily stop (in spite of increasing the Racing percentage to 92%).

I regularly experience this "detergent effect" in my wife's car. I use Racing ATF in the wife's RL too. And, I also change the RL's ATF with every engine oil change. In the past, I had always noticed that the RL would suddenly develop firmer (more harsh) shifting as time became closer for an engine oil change (approaching 6000 miles). Thus, this experience with the RL greatly contributed to my detergent theory. By the way, the 2003 RL does not cut the throttle between shifts. It does not have DBW.

This also explains why my flaring appeared almost overnight. Detergents will breakdown with usage. My ATF mixture had reached a tipping point with the broken-down detergents and 87% Racing ATF. At the time that I noticed the flaring, my most recent ATF change had 6000 miles on it, and thus the detergents had lost their ability to act like a friction modifier.
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Old 10-06-2011, 08:57 AM
  #143  
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Originally Posted by TLDude876 View Post
My ultimate goal is longevity of course. I dont race, my car is a daily driver. Occasionally I gun it just to make it sure the power is still there
Are you ok now or do you still want help? Have you decided which route you want to take? If not, let me know I will try to help.
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Old 10-06-2011, 09:05 AM
  #144  
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DW-1 versus Z1

Not that I am trying to chase anyone away (cough), but just saying that the thread below is a *GREAT* place to have this DW-1 versus Z1 discussion. In that thread, I have touched on the topic of if DW-1 is a synthetic or not.

New Honda ATF DW-1?!? (click here)
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Old 10-07-2011, 02:34 AM
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To Inaccurate: this reply is not meant as an argument, but partly because I do not understand some of your following comments, and partly because I disagree with some comments (assuming I do understand them correctly). I hope this response will be taken as an attempt for me to understand and clarify some ideas.

By the way, sure wish you had posted this thread a week earlier

I experienced the flaring problem with my own vehicle, before this thread was posted. I do appreciate this thread and the information you have provided.

Originally Posted by Inaccurate View Post
@dcmodels

The 65% Racing mixture was developed to be a permanent one-time fix against *EVER* having flaring or other shifting issues with the Racing ATF. ...
Does this comment mean that:

1. this mixture never has to be refreshed? surely not?

2. or that with periodic refreshment, no problem will occur? OK, but then how often must refreshment with new fluid be done?

That is the reason for my previous post. I was estimating how often I need to do a refreshmen, under my own driving conditions.

Originally Posted by Inaccurate View Post
@dcmodels
...
Please read over the second post of this thread more carefully. I covered this topic in great detail.
And yes, I did read your second post. I read all of your posts (carefully).

I understand that you are saying that ATF detergents can act as FMs, at least short term, until they are depleted.

So either a non-FM ATF must be replaced at short intervals - (under 6K miles by your experience, under 3.5K by my own experience), or a mix with an ATF containing FMs must be used to give longer acceptable shifting life.

But I disagree that the FMs in an ATF will never be depleted - see below.

Originally Posted by Inaccurate View Post
... The FM do not wear out (break down) in my opinion. ... the 65% mixture could require periodic refreshing to revive the FM and detergents. ...
Well, it cannot be both "FM do not wear out", and "[FM] require periodic refreshing". It is only one or the other.

The product information released by GM comparing Dex-III with Dex-VI, indicates that the Dex-VI FM will last 100% longer than the FM in Dex-III. In reality, GM refers to "FRICTION STABILITY", without using the term "friction modifier".

Clearly, this comparison indicates that there is a life-limit on FM, as least in Dexron GM ATFs. The GM specifications for the various Dexron ATFs even specify a test for, and acceptable limits for, friction stability. GM specifies the number of shift-cycles that ATF must pass with acceptable performance.

So my opinion is that any ATF will require period refreshment/ replacement, in order to replace 'worn-out'/ depleted friction modifiers. And I was attempting to estimate how often this refreshment might be required.
---eof
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Old 10-07-2011, 10:08 AM
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Originally Posted by dcmodels View Post

By the way, sure wish you had posted this thread a week earlier
Thank you for being polite. I do appreciate that.

As I was troubleshooting the issue and testing the remedy, I knew that there were people like you that were "in the throes" of this situation. So many times, I had wanted to post the information to warn people. I had to remind myself constantly that I could do more harm (or cause more confusion) if I "went off half-cocked".

To hasten the warning to the forum, I had started to write (compose) the rough draft of this thread while I was still experimenting and confirming the remedy. But at that point, I was confident of the cause and the remedy. I just had to go thru the steps (due diligence).

After I was comfortable that the remedy was working beyond a reasonable doubt, this thread was immediately posted.



Originally Posted by dcmodels View Post

Does this comment mean that the mixture never has to be refreshed? Or that with periodic refreshment, no problem will occur? OK, but then how often must refreshment with new fluid be done?
Thank you for asking. This is a good question.

This thread is meant as a remedy to right a wrong. As such, I treat it as a one-time correction. The thread is also assuring that the remedy is maintained indefinitely and that any new first-time users will know the correct way to add the Racing ATF.

The remedy is to never exceed a 65% Racing mixture. If a person is currently beyond this, the thread shows a person how to correct the wrong. This thread shows the new first-time user how to attain the correct (as I have defined it) Racing mixture. This thread also shows how to indefinitely maintain it ****If***** a person chooses to do any subsequent refills in the future.

At that point, I bow-out of the situation. The thread leaves the Racing ATF user to decide for himself what his ATF change interval (if any) should be. This thread makes no attempt at suggesting what an ATF change interval should be. The Racing ATF user should decide his ATF change interval (if any) in the same fashion that he would if he was using any other ATF.

The 65% Racing mixture was developed to be a permanent one-time fix against *EVER* having flaring or other shifting issues with the Racing ATF. I mean that ******if****** a person chooses to never replace their atf ever again, then they would not have any flaring due to the Racing mixture. This is my story (aka opinion) and I am sticking to it. I might be wrong and time will tell. It is plausible that the 65% mixture could (maybe, perhaps, might) require periodic refreshing to revive the FM. I highly doubt this is the case although.



Originally Posted by dcmodels View Post

And yes, I did read your second post. I read all of your posts (carefully).
Thank you for that sir. I write my post to target people like yourself. My post are not intended for speed readers.


Originally Posted by dcmodels View Post
ATF detergents can act as FMs, at least short term, until they are depleted. So either a non-FM ATF must be replaced at short intervals - (under 6K miles by your experience, under 3.5K by my own experience),
I did not mean to imply this. If the typical car (not speaking of the TL) can handle the reduced FM fluid with no issues, then there is no reason to replace the fluid any more often than the fluid would had been changed otherwise.

When I mentioned the detergent, I was explaining how I believed the detergent helped me to troubleshoot the flaring issue.

A person should not be relying on the detergents to act like a FM. The detergents are not intended to be a FM. IF a person finds that fresh detergents make his trans shift better (however that is defined), then perhaps that person should introduce more FM into his atf mixture. This is what happened to me and I did add more FM into my mixture. Ergo, this thread.


Originally Posted by dcmodels View Post

But I disagree that the FMs in an ATF will never be depleted - see below.


Well, it cannot be both "FM do not wear out", and "[FM] require periodic refreshing". It is only one or the other.

Please note that I feel that you misquoted me as saying "[FM] require periodic refreshing". I said "I might be wrong and time will tell. It is plausible that the 65% mixture *****could***** (maybe, perhaps, might) require periodic refreshing to revive the FM and detergents. I highly doubt this is the case although."

And I feel that you misquoted me again as saying "FM do not wear out". I did not state that as a fact. I was expressing my opinion. I said "the FM do not wear out (break down) in my opinion. The FM are built to last for a very long time and normally do." I meant to say that the FM are not normally depleted within the normal service life of the atf.


Originally Posted by dcmodels View Post
So my opinion is that any ATF will require period refreshment/ replacement, in order to replace 'worn-out'/ depleted friction modifiers.
This is fine. This is an open forum. You and I are not required to come to any agreement. I feel that it is the duty of the reader to decide what they wish to believe. Your opinion is duly noted.

Please let me know if you have more questions.
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Old 10-07-2011, 10:40 AM
  #147  
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Hey Inaacurate, for those that already did a 3x3 with DW1 and want to do the Redline 2 Type F and 1 D4 what should I do if I don't want to do another 3x3 since I did it not too long ago? Can I just do a drain and fill with all type f once? What would that ratio be?
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Old 10-07-2011, 10:44 AM
  #148  
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Originally Posted by Inaccurate View Post
Are you ok now or do you still want help? Have you decided which route you want to take? If not, let me know I will try to help.
I guess I'll go with either 2 d4 + 1 racing or 1 d4 + 2 racing
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Old 10-07-2011, 02:49 PM
  #149  
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For anyone that is beginning to use Racing ATF for the first time and has already completed a 3x3 with Redline D4 or Amsoil Multi-Vehicle ATF

Because you already have fresh synthetic atf in your trans, your procedure would be slightly different. Normally, a person must do 3 refills to adequately flush out the old non-synthetic fluid. But in your case, you are just making your mixture to be a 65% Racing mixture and not trying to flush out the old non-synthetic fluid. So, you will do only two refills. Here is your procedure below -


Refill #1 = 2 qt Lightweight ATF + 1 qt Racing ATF
Refill #2 = 2 qt Racing ATF + 1 qt Lightweight ATF



The above will produce a 65% Racing mixture having a normal viscosity (7.6 cSt @ 100º C).

For any subsequent refills (If you choose to do any additional refills in the future), you should use 1 quart D4 + 1 quart Racing ATF + 1 quart Lightweight ATF. This will indefinitely maintain a 65% Racing mixture having a normal viscosity.

I recommend that you do the Refill #1, then drive with it for at least a week. Perhaps drive even longer than a week until you have developed a good feel for the personality of the Racing ATF. Then, you will be in a better position to decide if you wish to pursue the full-blown 65% Racing mixture. By the way, you will have a 40% Racing mixture after the Refill #1.

If you are happy with the Racing ATF after the Refill #1, please be aware that this does *not* imply that you will still be happy with it after Refill #2. After Refill #2, you might become unhappy with the Racing ATF due to harsh shifting, clunk sounds, lunges, etc.

If you are unhappy with the shifting (too harsh, clunk sounds, lunges, etc.) after your Refill #1, then do a single refill with all D4. This would put your mixture at 24% Racing and hopefully the harshness would be eliminated. If not, you would need to do another refill of all D4, which would make it a 14% Racing mixture.

If you are unhappy with the shifting (too harsh, clunk sounds, lunges, etc.) after your Refill #2, you would need to do a 3x3 with all D4. This would put your mixture at 16% Racing.
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Old 10-07-2011, 03:30 PM
  #150  
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Originally Posted by usmarinedelta View Post
for those that already did a 3x3 with DW1 and want to do the Redline 2 Type F and 1 D4 what should I do if I don't want to do another 3x3 since I did it not too long ago? Can I just do a drain and fill with all type f once? What would that ratio be?

This is tough for me. This whole thread is based on the premise that a person wants nothing but the finest atf in their trans.

First and foremost, a person should have the best quality ATF in their trans. This would be the Redline brand. If a person wanted to take additional steps to try to prolong the life of their trans, then they could try the Racing atf.

Not that I am recommending that you do a single refill, but to answer your question, it would be a 27% Racing mixture if you use 2 qt F and 1 qt D4.
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Old 10-08-2011, 04:38 PM
  #151  
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can i get a copy of the PM that IHC will be sending out? im very curious....
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Old 10-08-2011, 11:16 PM
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^^^ yeah will pass it on to you....
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Old 10-10-2011, 02:25 AM
  #153  
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I drained out the old Redline Racing and filled with 3 quarts of Redlinne D4 and the lunge and noticible bump when shifting to reverse and park is barely noticeable now. Before with the Redline racing, it would have a harsh jerk when then shifting from P to R.
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Old 10-10-2011, 07:55 AM
  #154  
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Originally Posted by gotkilled View Post
I already completed the 3x3 Racing ATF a little over a year ago. I drained out the old Redline Racing and filled with 3 quarts of Redlinne D4
Thanks for the feedback.

This now gives you a 47% Racing mixture. How are the shifts from a performance perspective? Are the shifts still executed fairly quickly?
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Old 10-10-2011, 08:11 AM
  #155  
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To All Changing Their Mixture

Give it approx 30 miles after the refill for the new mixture to take effect before you judge it.
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Old 10-12-2011, 11:56 PM
  #156  
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Originally Posted by Inaccurate View Post
THE PROBLEM

I finally experienced a drivability issue due to having too little friction modifier (FM).

What seemed to be just overnight, I developed a RPM flare during the 3-4 gear change. It would flare approx half of the time. Light acceleration or hard acceleration, it would flare just the same. Even in SportShift mode too. But, the flare was only during the 3-4 shift. Sometimes it would flare up by 200 RPM. Whereas other times it would flare by 400 RPM. When I was getting into the throttle fairly heavy, causing a loud exhaust due to PCD, it would sound like crap and be very embarrassing because it sounded like a manual trans being shifted by someone that didn't know how to shift properly... very embarrassing.

Hoping it would eliminate the flaring, I promptly changed my 3rd & 4th trans switches, which had not been changed before. The new switches did not eliminate nor reduce the flaring.

This flaring situation also made me realize that my trans has not been shifting as crisp and quickly like it did after I first switched to the Redline Racing ATF. You know how it is... it is easy to not notice something that gradually changes over a long period of time. But upon reflecting on it, I could easily see that the shifts had become sluggish over time.

Originally, after I had did my second refill with Racing ATF, my trans shifted AMAZINGLY. To see my original post where I described the awesomeness, click here. In that original post, I described it as follows. "While doing a 5 mph - 80 mph onto the freeway with heavy throttle, the trans ripped every gear….. hard, quick shifts. I can only imagine what the car sounds like from the outside (I have PCD). To me, it sounded like a good motorcycle rider on a superbike shifting gears."

Bah, bah, bah

Not…… Bah, silence, bah, silence, bah.

However, since my original second refill with Racing ATF, my shifts had gradually been becoming sluggish again. In the recent few months, the shifts had returned to

Bah, silence, bah, silence, bah. :angryfire



CLUES

As good luck would have it, one week later after replacing the 3rd & 4th trans switches to no avail, it was time for an engine oil change. I always change my ATF every time I do an engine oil change. To my surprise, the flare was gone after changing the engine oil and atf (at this point I was still using all Racing ATF). This gave me a strong clue that the flare was related to insufficient friction modifier.

When I was originally researching the feasibility of using Racing ATF, I learned from one of the SAE Papers that detergents in the ATF will act like a friction modifier. The fresh detergents in my Racing fluid (that I had just added) caused my flaring to temporarily stop (in spite of increasing the Racing percentage to 92%).

I regularly experience this "detergent effect" in my wife's car. I use Racing ATF in the wife's RL too. And, I also change the RL's ATF with every engine oil change. In the past, I had always noticed that the RL would suddenly develop firmer (more harsh) shifting as time became closer for an engine oil change (approaching 6000 miles). Thus, this experience with the RL greatly contributed to my detergent theory. By the way, the 2003 RL does not cut the throttle between shifts. It does not have DBW.

This also explains why my flaring appeared almost overnight. Detergents will breakdown with usage. My ATF mixture had reached a tipping point with the broken-down detergents and 87% Racing ATF. At the time that I noticed the flaring, my most recent ATF change had 6000 miles on it, and thus the detergents had lost their ability to act like a friction modifier.



THEORIES

Upon realizing that I had a flaring issue, I tried to develop possible theories to explain what I was experiencing. The one and only theory was that the trans needs a small amount of friction modifier to allow the clutch packs to slip easily when disengaged (freewheeling). Perhaps with no FM, the clutches are grabbing too much when the pack is supposed to be disengaged. That is, the open (disengaged) packs are experiencing too much drag and consequently spinning-up the engine between shifts.

The flaring is absolutely not slippage. My clutches still grab with authority, even during the particular shift that has the flaring. The flaring occurs during the time that the ECU has the throttle closed. So, this is what led me to believe that something else, like clutch-pack drag, was causing the motor to spin-up during the time period when the ECU has the throttle closed.

To verify this theory, I performed some data logging to record the throttle position (ATP) and engine RPM. The logging confirmed that the throttle is closed during the flaring event. Thus, the logging supported my theory that something else is causing the rise in RPM (flaring), not the ECU applying throttle. Also, the logging rules out that the trans is slipping. The trans can not be slipping (causing the increase in RPM) if the engine is supplying no power at the time.

Looking for more clues to support my theory, I went digging in my old SAE Papers that I had purchased when I was researching the feasibility of using the Racing ATF. I very much did find some information that could support my theory.

According to the SAE Paper entitled "Static Friction - What It is, What Affects It", automatic transmission clutches "can cause catastrophic results if they begin to slip. If the static friction is lower than required, the clutch slips, creates excessive heat and fails prematurely. On the other hand, if the static friction is higher than expected, it may interfere with the clutch disengagement and may contribute to undesirable shift quality" (SAE Technical Paper No. 941034, page 3).

There appears to be a balancing act between maximizing the static friction in the engaged clutch versus minimizing the friction in the disengaged clutches. This becomes more important when we realize that there is *one* clutch pack that is engaged and *four* clutch packs that are disengaged (freewheeling) at any given time in the TL transmission.

On one hand, a minimal amount of FM is desired to allow the clutch to engage as quickly and firmly as possible to minimize clutch wear and minimize heat production. On the other hand, too little FM could cause clutch wear and heat production in the freewheeling (disengaged) clutches and also during the engagement/disengagement process of the clutches.

The SAE Paper also implies that unnecessary heat can be produced by the pack "adhering" too much during the engagement process [dynamic friction] (SAE Technical Paper No. 941034, page 7).

Therefore, one could draw the conclusion that having some amount of FM is desirable to reduce pack temperatures and reduce clutch wear created by unintentional drag in the freewheeling (disengaged) clutches and during the engagement/disengagement process.

This would explain why I found more clutch material on my magnetic drain plug during my most recent fluid change versus the previous time that I drained my fluid.



ONE OTHER REPORTED CASE

It is plausible that having too little FM had caused one Acurazine member to have his trans replaced due to flaring (click here). This one person might had experienced the flaring due to manufacturing tolerances. That is, he may have had a clutch pack with too little clearance (compared to a typical TL) and caused excessive drag when combined with the reduced FM. If so, reducing the percentage of Racing ATF, or reverting back to Z1, would had eliminated the flaring.



REMEDY

"And so we go back to the remedy...
Clip the wings that get you high, just leave them where they lie"


Seeing that I had the best shifting experience after the original second refill with Redline Racing, I proceeded to reduce my current Racing percentage (92%) to be the same as it was when I had originally completed the second refill, which was 65% Racing ATF.

With my Racing mixture now reduced to 65%, the flaring was absolutely and completely eliminated. Furthermore, the awesome double-clutch shifting had returned too.

Thus, we have learned that we must avoid having too little friction modifier. We have two data points that can be used to establish an upper limit to the Racing percentage in our mixture.

One data point is from my experience. We must avoid a 87% Racing mixture. The second data point is from chayos00 (click here). We must avoid a 79% Racing mixture.

The optimal value being 65% is based upon nothing scientifically derived nor anything absolutely concrete. Just a simple case of recognizing that I had the best shifting when my Racing percentage was 65%. Additionally, the 65% value provides a sufficient buffer from the upper limit that would induce flaring. I have experienced Racing mixtures at 0%, 40%, 65%, 87% and 92%. And, the 65% was truly an AWESOME shifting experience. The other percentages can't compare. And, I am thrilled to have that shifting performance back once again.

Once I came to this part I stopped reading:

"Hoping it would eliminate the flaring, I promptly changed my 3rd & 4th trans switches, which had not been changed before. The new switches did not eliminate nor reduce the flaring."



"
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Old 10-13-2011, 01:22 AM
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^^^ Obviously people have different opinions on this fluid including me. I agree with some of your posts although many may not. I personally used redline and did a 3x3 with type f and have had issues. So did another member here and shortly his transmission failed. His user name is cayos or something. I see the logic behind the claims that Inacurate and IHC are making but from experience, I'm not going to run them and have since did a 3x3 with the DW1 fluid and it drives fine. I definitly know that no matter what, I'm picking up a 6 speed next time lol. As for some of the statements that Inaccurate and IHC make I don't agree that I'd like to bring up. For example in my research IHC said he didn't notice any "feel" in shifting, I don't see how he couldn't as I felt the abrupt shock and harsher shifts after a 3x3 with redline. And as for him saying that there is absolutely nothing wrong with a 3x3 type f fluid, it has now been proven otherwise in this thread with flarring. Not saying their not knowledgable, just saying not everything out there is accurate from my experience with this fluid. I think that those who are worried should take this route and do a "cocktail" mix, but for me I'm sticking with the new fluid along with a tranny cooler and external filter as my preventative measures. Oh and a little off topic but I was talking to a old guy in walmart today, he said he has a civic AT with over 300k on it and the first thing I asked him was if he replaced the transmission and right away he seemed to know what I was talking about. He said all his closest mechanic friends say that Honda transmissions, especially AT are crap. He said the motor is strong and reliability is great but when it comes the the transmission, honda dropped the ball. But he managed to get 200k before a rebuild was needed.

Last edited by usmarinedelta; 10-13-2011 at 01:28 AM.
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Old 10-13-2011, 01:52 AM
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Originally Posted by usmarinedelta View Post
^^^ Obviously people have different opinions on this fluid including me. I agree with some of your posts although many may not. I personally used redline and did a 3x3 with type f and have had issues. So did another member here and shortly his transmission failed. His user name is cayos or something. I see the logic behind the claims that Inacurate and IHC are making but from experience, I'm not going to run them and have since did a 3x3 with the DW1 fluid and it drives fine. I definitly know that no matter what, I'm picking up a 6 speed next time lol. As for some of the statements that Inaccurate and IHC make I don't agree that I'd like to bring up. For example in my research IHC said he didn't notice any "feel" in shifting, I don't see how he couldn't as I felt the abrupt shock and harsher shifts after a 3x3 with redline. And as for him saying that there is absolutely nothing wrong with a 3x3 type f fluid, it has now been proven otherwise in this thread with flarring. Not saying their not knowledgable, just saying not everything out there is accurate from my experience with this fluid. I think that those who are worried should take this route and do a "cocktail" mix, but for me I'm sticking with the new fluid along with a tranny cooler and external filter as my preventative measures. Oh and a little off topic but I was talking to a old guy in walmart today, he said he has a civic AT with over 300k on it and the first thing I asked him was if he replaced the transmission and right away he seemed to know what I was talking about. He said all his closest mechanic friends say that Honda transmissions, especially AT are crap. He said the motor is strong and reliability is great but when it comes the the transmission, honda dropped the ball. But he managed to get 200k before a rebuild was needed.
did u ask him if he ever changed his atf
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Old 10-13-2011, 04:55 AM
  #159  
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I just want to see if IHC supports Inaccurate's conjecture about "too much" racing fluid. I know he has been running full racing atf for a while now?
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Old 10-13-2011, 08:49 AM
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Originally Posted by TL BPJ View Post
I just want to see if IHC supports Inaccurate's conjecture about "too much" racing fluid. I know he has been running full racing atf for a while now?
Originally Posted by Sir Drake View Post
Any input or advice from IHC?

IHC and myself traded a few PM regarding this thread and my findings. Also, IHC has recently mentioned this topic, in passing, in another thread. Based on these conversations, it appears that IHC does *not* fully support my theory nor fully recognize that there is an issue. Human nature is a powerful thing. We as humans, myself included too, have a strong tendency to base our beliefs upon what we have experienced or witnessed firsthand. Nature made us this way and rightfully so.

IHC does not have any flaring issues even though he is running a 96% Racing mixture. My theory for this is in the opening post of this thread. One person will experience the flaring while several other people will have no issue. It is my theory that this is due to manufacturing tolerances in the clutch packs. That is, the people with flaring have one or more clutch packs with tight clearances (compared to a typical TL) and the tight clearance is causing excessive drag when combined with the reduced FM.

The purpose of this thread is to present a Racing ATF mixture that *everyone* will hopefully be ok running without flaring issues.
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