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The Optimal Percentage of Racing ATF

 
Old 10-13-2011, 10:27 AM
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That was very courteous of you to actually let all the members of azine know about this! Inaccurate I have a question though. I recently had a two 1x3 drain and fill of Racing ATF, this was in intervals of 5k tho because I wanted my tranny to slowly adjust to the fm.

What percentage of new oil do you think I am at now? I think it's pretty low right now because I checked the dipstick. And, what should my next 3x3 look like in terms of quantities of Racing and D4?
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Old 10-13-2011, 10:41 AM
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5K is a very long interval bro....

Max interval i would give is 1K....if you do an oil change every 5K and are thinking of doing a drain and refill every 5K, then you will never be able to get the old fluid out....

Per Acura, you shouldnt even drive more than 2-5 minutes as you dont want the fluid to mix, you want the new fluid to kinda "force" out the old fluid.....
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Old 10-13-2011, 10:44 AM
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@TL BPJ

I am assuming that before doing your two refills with Racing ATF that you had just Z1 in your trans.

After the two refills with Racing ATF, you currently have a 65% Racing mixture.

For your third refill and any subsequent refills (If you choose to do any additional refills in the future), you should use 1 quart D4 + 1 quart Racing ATF + 1 quart Lightweight ATF. This will indefinitely maintain a 65% Racing mixture.
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Old 10-13-2011, 09:05 PM
  #164  
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Originally Posted by swoosh View Post
5K is a very long interval bro....

Max interval i would give is 1K....if you do an oil change every 5K and are thinking of doing a drain and refill every 5K, then you will never be able to get the old fluid out....

Per Acura, you shouldnt even drive more than 2-5 minutes as you dont want the fluid to mix, you want the new fluid to kinda "force" out the old fluid.....
Does Acura have the 3x3 procedure documented anywhere? My dealer service department first recommended a single drain and fill. When I said I wanted to do a 3x3 to get most of the old fluid out, the service department agreed it was a good idea, but then highly recommended driving 1 month between each of the 3 changes. In my case that's about 2000 miles between each change.
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Old 10-13-2011, 10:10 PM
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Originally Posted by jhumbo View Post
Does Acura have the 3x3 procedure documented anywhere? My dealer service department first recommended a single drain and fill. When I said I wanted to do a 3x3 to get most of the old fluid out, the service department agreed it was a good idea, but then highly recommended driving 1 month between each of the 3 changes. In my case that's about 2000 miles between each change.
I think they were just afraid of a ton of new detergents causing a lot of debris in the oil and sticking a valve or plugging an orifice and causing a problem. Generally if you've kept up on your changes it's a non issue. If you've gone 100,000 miles and never changed the fluid, chances are you would still be fine doing a 3x3 but the likelihood of something going wrong is definitely increased.

When I worked at a trans shop, the problem was so real that when a car came in with a failing trans, we were told to catch the oil in a clean bucket when we pulled the pan for a visual inspection and refill with the old fluid. This was not to save money, a refill of bulk DexIII was about $2. It was so the trans did not fail on their way home and the customer blaming us.

You would be perfectly fine doing a 3x3 all at once. As long as you hit every gear including torque convertor clutch lockup and reverse twice you've pumped new fluid through everything. If they're wanting you to drive it for a month just to circulate the fluid, they're wrong. Absolutely no need to go a month in either case with the rate you're putting on miles.
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Old 10-13-2011, 11:59 PM
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Originally Posted by swoosh View Post
5K is a very long interval bro....

Max interval i would give is 1K....if you do an oil change every 5K and are thinking of doing a drain and refill every 5K, then you will never be able to get the old fluid out....

Per Acura, you shouldnt even drive more than 2-5 minutes as you dont want the fluid to mix, you want the new fluid to kinda "force" out the old fluid.....
I'm gonna be doing my 2x3 end of this month. I'm gonna test out the shifting when I go in for an oil change. I will come back with feedback.
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Old 10-14-2011, 10:03 AM
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This thread could not have come at a better time.

I just recently completed a 4x3 and was expecting marginally better results and "feel", but instead the opposite, and slight flare on the 2-3 shift. I thought it was all in my head, but now this thread confirms my thoughts.

I think there are a few of use who have done a mixture of Type F and Light weight.

Here's what I've done
3 qts of OEM Honda ATF @ 60k
1x3: 2 racing, 1 light @ 66 & all pressure sensors
2x3: 1 racing, 2 light @ 68k
3x3: 2 racing, 1 light @ 71k
4x3: 1 racing, 2 light @ 73k

There's probably another quart of racing in there due to me draining more than 3 qts on a couple of occasions, and having to top off a couple of times to get the level right.

So all in all I have put in 7 racing, 4 lightweight racing in the span of roughly the last 8k miles.

What would you rate my percentage at?

Based upon the information you presented, I plan on going on the following route simply due to my current fluid supply:
5x3: 2 D4, 1 racing
6x3: 1 D4, 1 racing, 1 light


I'm currently at 74k miles. Should I go ahead and perform my 5x3 at my earliest convenience or will waiting till the next oil change @ 78k be sufficient? This car sees 90% highway miles so I have 6k mile oil change intervals.

If i performed my 5x3 say at 75k-78k miles, I was thinking of waiting until either I'm at 100k (when I change the pressure sensors again), or when I'm at 125k for the 6x3. How's that sound? Perhaps further? 150k?

Thanks for all the help you've provided and continue to do
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Old 10-14-2011, 11:43 AM
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Originally Posted by jhumbo View Post
Does Acura have the 3x3 procedure documented anywhere? My dealer service department first recommended a single drain and fill. When I said I wanted to do a 3x3 to get most of the old fluid out, the service department agreed it was a good idea, but then highly recommended driving 1 month between each of the 3 changes. In my case that's about 2000 miles between each change.
well Acura does have a 3x3 documented but they dont follow it coz its time consuming....they just use a device which sucks out all the old fluid and pumps in all the new fluid....

when am switching between the same fluid (draining old Z1 and putting new in), I drive around for 2-3 minutes....but when I switched from Z1 to Type F, I drove for 800-1000 miles between drain and refills because I wanted to make sure the tranny is ok with no FM's....

Originally Posted by I hate cars View Post
I think they were just afraid of a ton of new detergents causing a lot of debris in the oil and sticking a valve or plugging an orifice and causing a problem. Generally if you've kept up on your changes it's a non issue. If you've gone 100,000 miles and never changed the fluid, chances are you would still be fine doing a 3x3 but the likelihood of something going wrong is definitely increased.

When I worked at a trans shop, the problem was so real that when a car came in with a failing trans, we were told to catch the oil in a clean bucket when we pulled the pan for a visual inspection and refill with the old fluid. This was not to save money, a refill of bulk DexIII was about $2. It was so the trans did not fail on their way home and the customer blaming us.

You would be perfectly fine doing a 3x3 all at once. As long as you hit every gear including torque convertor clutch lockup and reverse twice you've pumped new fluid through everything. If they're wanting you to drive it for a month just to circulate the fluid, they're wrong. Absolutely no need to go a month in either case with the rate you're putting on miles.
Thanks bro....btw no GN in ur sig anymore ?

Originally Posted by turtlecivic View Post
I'm gonna be doing my 2x3 end of this month. I'm gonna test out the shifting when I go in for an oil change. I will come back with feedback.
sure thing man....
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Old 10-14-2011, 06:59 PM
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Why is no one talking about using D6 in combination with Type F instead of D4? I I believe there are less friction mods and less variance in viscosity from cold to hot (start off thinner and heat up to similar viscosity). Can anyone confirm what I said about the FM's in D6? If so, I for one, may start using 2-D6 with 1-F although I have run a 3x3 of F for about 20k miles and am happy with it.
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Old 10-14-2011, 07:19 PM
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Red Lines Tech Summary D6
Synthetic D6 ATF is a lower viscosity version of the D4ATF and is designed for better fuel efficiency in CAFE testing. Dexron VI requires a different approach to a conventional ATF formulation. Rather than beginning with a 7.5 cSt fluid and allowing a viscosity loss in use to drop to 5.5 cSt, the Dexron VI fluid requires a starting viscosity of less than 6.4 and a final drop to no less than 5.5 cSt. Red Line D6 will drop to no less than 6.1 cSt. Since the final viscosity after use of these fluids are similar, Dexron VI fluids can be used where Dexron III fluids
were previously recommended (with the exception of some manual transmission applications, our customers report).

D6 ATF also provides significantly improved gear protection and will provide a GL-4 level of gear protection. The balanced frictional characteristics provide smooth and consistent shifts for extended drain intervals. The superior stability compared to petroleum ATFs allows high-temperature operation without varnishing valves and clutches which leads to transmission failure.
Vis @ 100C, cSt 6.4
Vis @ 40C, cSt 30.7
Viscosity Index 166
Pour Point, C -60
Pour Point, F -76
Flash Point, C 249
Flash Point, F 480
Brookfield Vis @ -40C, P 45


Red Lines Tech Summary D4


D4 ATF is a fully-synthetic product designed with superior low-temperature properties compared to a Dexron III fluid, and the improved shear-stability requirements which is part of the Mercon V specifications.

D4 ATF also provides a GL-4 level of gear protection, making it a superior product for transmissions and transaxles. The balanced frictional characteristics provides smooth and consistent shifts for extended drain intervals. The superior stability compared to petroleum ATFs allows high-temperature operation without varnishing valves and clutches which leads to transmission failure.
Vis @ 100C, cSt 7.5
Vis @ 40C, cSt 34
Viscosity Index 198
Pour Point, C -60
Pour Point, F -76
Flash Point, C 225
Flash Point, F 437
Brookfield Vis @ -40C, P 52


Red Lines Tech Summary Racing Type F
Red Line's Racing ATF is fully-synthetic product designed for use in racing automatic transmissions which need the positive shift of a Type F automatic transmission fluid. This ATF contains no slipperiness additives, producing faster shifts and quicker lock-up, and can reduce elapsed time in drag racing.

A higher viscosity compared to conventional Type-F transmission fluids provides higher torque converter efficiency at higher temperatures. The enhanced extreme-pressure protection provides five-times better film strength when compared to petroleum ATFs, reducing gear and clutch wear considerably.

This product is designed to be used where Type-F fluids are recommended or for racing transmissions which need quicker shifts than provided with Dexron II fluids. This product can also be used in manual transmissions which require ATFs, providing better gear wear and better shiftability, but Red Line MTL will provide even better wear protection and shiftability.


Vis @ 100C, cSt 10
Vis @ 40C, cSt 53.7
Viscosity Index 177
Pour Point, C -50
Pour Point, F -58
Flash Point, C 238
Flash Point, F 460
Brookfield Vis @ -40C, P 150
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Old 10-14-2011, 11:53 PM
  #171  
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Originally Posted by JDM RICe View Post
I just recently completed a 4x3 and was expecting marginally better results and "feel", but instead the opposite, and slight flare on the 2-3 shift. I thought it was all in my head, but now this thread confirms my thoughts.
@ JDM RICe

And thank you for confirming my discovery that more is *not* better.

You currently have a 87% Racing mixture.

I highly recommend that you do your corrective Refill #5 as soon as possible. You are currently experiencing flaring. If my theory is correct, the flaring is from the clutches rubbing together needlessly. This rubbing, if I am correct, is causing wear..... hopefully insignificant wear. But there is no reason to take a chance. Fix it as soon as possible.

Do your next change as shown below. I leave it to you to decide if you want to use 1 Racing *or* 1 Lightweight. It makes no practical difference.

Refill #5 = 2 quarts D4 + 1 quart Type F

There is no reason to do a Refill #6. After the Refill #5, you will have a 65% Racing mixture. No further action is required.

For any subsequent refills (If you choose to do any additional refills in the future), you should use 1 quart D4 + 1 quart Racing ATF + 1 quart Lightweight ATF. This will indefinitely maintain a 65% Racing mixture.

After the Refill #5, no further action is required. *If* you decide to do any subsequent refills, it would be totally to satisfy your Obsessive-compulsive disorder (OCD). With the high quality Redline in your trans, you could conceivably never need to change the fluid again..... ever.

But, there is no harm is changing it often. I plan to still change mine with ever engine oil change every 6000 miles. Yes, I am OCD too.
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Old 10-15-2011, 12:04 AM
  #172  
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Originally Posted by hleapha View Post
Why is no one talking about using D6.
Although I agree with you that the D6 offers less variance in viscosity (being a desirable trait), it is not enough of a reason to introduce any additional confusing into this topic. Most people on our forum are already familiar with the D4.

This whole situation is confusing enough already. Some people are labeling the 65% mixture as a "cocktail". And, they are correct to call it as such in spite of being slightly derogatory in tone.

If you wish to use D6, I see no harm in it. Thanks for the good question.

Last edited by Inaccurate; 10-15-2011 at 12:18 AM.
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Old 10-15-2011, 01:15 AM
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I also see no issues with D6. It's Redline's answer to the new thinner DexVI and DW-1 fluids. I have to assume the same frictional properties as D4.

While there are no issues, don't expect to see a measurable change in mpg, it won't happen unless you live in Alaska and your average trip length is 1 mile lol.
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Old 10-15-2011, 06:15 AM
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Originally Posted by I hate cars View Post
I also see no issues with D6. It's Redline's answer to the new thinner DexVI and DW-1 fluids. I have to assume the same frictional properties as D4.
IHC -

I am not looking to start a beef with you, I am just not in agreement with your practices.

To give you an idea of the questionability of these practices and the untested results ... here's the response I received from Redline, YESTERDAY, when I posed a very particular question to them.


Jim,

Thank you for contacting Red Line Oil, in your Acura automatic transaxle calling for the DW-1 fluid the D4ATF would be recommended.

Regards, Dave
Red Line Oil



From:Jim
Sent: Thursday, October 13, 2011 1:34 PM
To: [email protected]



Hello –



I just purchased a 2012 Acura TL Advance with front-wheel drive and an automatic 6-speed transmission. Which of your ATF fluids would be correct for upgrading from the stock Acura DW-1? Thank you in advance.



JD –





I believe that my question was VERY clear with the necessary information to make a decision regarding their products.

Can you explain why they recommended a product which according to their own website is supposed to be equivalent to Z-1 and yet they also wish to use it to replace DW-1?

You and I both agree that the new fluid is considerably lighter, differing in base stocks and as a member of the Honda/Acura lubricant team, I know that it has differences in the additive package.
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Old 10-15-2011, 06:41 AM
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BTW, as I mentioned previously ... I am leaving on vacation. Don't hurry to respond, I will be unavailable for awhile.
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Old 10-15-2011, 09:31 AM
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This has been answered numerous times in the racing ATF thread. No company in their right mind is going to recommend this stuff when it hasn't been tested but ask the question in the right way and you will get a different answer. Look for Inaccurate's discussion with Dave.

So again, why not tell us the difference in the add pack instead of playing this game? I feel like it's turning into a game or you just don't know the answer. I would rather be proved wrong and know what's in the stuff than to keep hearing you basically say I know what's in it but I'm not going to tell you.
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Old 10-15-2011, 12:29 PM
  #177  
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Originally Posted by jhumbo View Post
Does Acura have the 3x3 procedure documented anywhere? My dealer service department first recommended a single drain and fill. When I said I wanted to do a 3x3 to get most of the old fluid out, the service department agreed it was a good idea, but then highly recommended driving 1 month between each of the 3 changes. In my case that's about 2000 miles between each change.
Yes, it's in the Jan 2008 Service News...

Click this line to access Acura Service News
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Old 10-16-2011, 04:00 AM
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Funny... I wasn actually about to make a new thread and I stumbled upon this one and I'm happy I did.

A few months ago I did a 3x3 of Redline in my 06 Honda Accord V6 (same trans as TL)... It was 6ts. Racing, and 3qts. Lightweight Racing...

The results were as such: hard shifts (you could feel everything the trans was even thinking about doing)... But also quick shifts and I was satisfied with knowing (thinking) that this would add longevity to the trans.

After maybe 8k miles or so (not really sure at the moment, I'll have to look this afternoon for the paper I wrote it on), I noticed the trans feeling a bit more sluggish, and a bit harsher... Occasionally, when going WOT from a stop to about 70, I could hear a loud POP sound on the 2-3 shift that scared me (it seems another member posted a similar POP sound in this thread also). That however, isn't the biggest news here...

Moving on to approx 2-3 months ago my car developed a 2-3 shift flare, and it was just as innacurate stated... Overnight. The flare has progressively gotten worse, and it has also made its way to the 3-4 shift as well. I too however, made note that it wasn't happening during the 1-2 shift (when the throttle is NOT cut for the shift) so I knew it wasn't slipping. But I still thought I'd have to soon replace the trans.... (it would be my second replacement and I'm only at 71k miles)...

I am certainly glad I found this thread because when I wake up this afternoon, I was planning on going to the store and buying enough D4 to do 3 D&Rs just in case Honda decided to do a fluid analysis when they replaced the trans in the near future....

So now my questions are these:

#1)Considering I did a 3x3 and all of them were as follows: 2qts. Racing and 1qt. lightweight.... What viscosity am I at right now?

#2)Since I'm at about 79% on my current mix... What percentage (and viscosity) would I be at if I did 1 D&R with 3qts. of D4? Because I'm leaning more towards 3qts. of D4 instead of 2 D4 and one Racing.

#3)Lastly, I mustve driven around 5k miles since the flaring in shifts 2-3 and 3-4 have begun... Do you think I've done any lasting damage that changing to a higher % of FM can't undo?

Thank you... Hopefully I'll wake up to a response so that I can run out and get the proper amount of fluid... And hopefully it will solve my issues!

Take care
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Old 10-16-2011, 04:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Inaccurate View Post
@ JDM RICe

I highly recommend that you do your corrective Refill #5 as soon as possible.

Yes, I am OCD too.
damn it! lol, I knew you were going to say that.

Now the ultimate choice for me is to go OTC (over the counter) at the local parts store or place an order for some Redline D4 and do a drain & refill next weekend. I hate to have to put something other than Redline in my car. Again, it may be OCD on my part

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Old 10-16-2011, 05:03 AM
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Looks like the only local alternative is Mobil1 Synthetic ATF

Whats the consensus on using that versus Redline D4?

Are there any other brands of D4 I'm not thinking of that should be available locally? I kind of feel like I need to do this change now, versus a week from now, regardless of brand of fluid.
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Old 10-16-2011, 09:01 AM
  #181  
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^^^ Get it done right....

I would order from Amazon....they ship very quick and are reasonably priced....
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Old 10-16-2011, 09:42 AM
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Originally Posted by FollowingNFront View Post
Funny... I wasn actually about to make a new thread and I stumbled upon this one and I'm happy I did.

A few months ago I did a 3x3 of Redline in my 06 Honda Accord V6 (same trans as TL)... It was 6ts. Racing, and 3qts. Lightweight Racing...

The results were as such: hard shifts (you could feel everything the trans was even thinking about doing)... But also quick shifts and I was satisfied with knowing (thinking) that this would add longevity to the trans.

After maybe 8k miles or so (not really sure at the moment, I'll have to look this afternoon for the paper I wrote it on), I noticed the trans feeling a bit more sluggish, and a bit harsher... Occasionally, when going WOT from a stop to about 70, I could hear a loud POP sound on the 2-3 shift that scared me (it seems another member posted a similar POP sound in this thread also). That however, isn't the biggest news here...

Moving on to approx 2-3 months ago my car developed a 2-3 shift flare, and it was just as innacurate stated... Overnight. The flare has progressively gotten worse, and it has also made its way to the 3-4 shift as well. I too however, made note that it wasn't happening during the 1-2 shift (when the throttle is NOT cut for the shift) so I knew it wasn't slipping. But I still thought I'd have to soon replace the trans.... (it would be my second replacement and I'm only at 71k miles)...

I am certainly glad I found this thread because when I wake up this afternoon, I was planning on going to the store and buying enough D4 to do 3 D&Rs just in case Honda decided to do a fluid analysis when they replaced the trans in the near future....

So now my questions are these:

#1)Considering I did a 3x3 and all of them were as follows: 2qts. Racing and 1qt. lightweight.... What viscosity am I at right now?

#2)Since I'm at about 79% on my current mix... What percentage (and viscosity) would I be at if I did 1 D&R with 3qts. of D4? Because I'm leaning more towards 3qts. of D4 instead of 2 D4 and one Racing.

#3)Lastly, I mustve driven around 5k miles since the flaring in shifts 2-3 and 3-4 have begun... Do you think I've done any lasting damage that changing to a higher % of FM can't undo?

Thank you... Hopefully I'll wake up to a response so that I can run out and get the proper amount of fluid... And hopefully it will solve my issues!

Take care
And you were flaming me about 5 months ago saying "Honda fluid is bad yo...", when I simply writing a review about Honda's DW-1. Even made a point to bash me that I should use all Redline Racing ATF on ? 5 months later, I'm perfectly fine on DW-1. I told you to check in after 200k miles if you are still living large on that fluid. Looks like you checked much sooner because of a problem with mostly Redline Type-F ATF.
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Old 10-16-2011, 09:47 AM
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^^^ why am I having problems understanding your post

FnF was mentioning how he developed flaring using Type F...he didnt say anything about DW1 or Z1....
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Old 10-16-2011, 11:08 AM
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I wrote a review of Honda's DW-1 ATF back in May after I switched to it on my 07 Accord V6 on . FollowingNFront jumped in and started preaching how Honda's ATF is s*** and everyone should switch to Redline Type-F while flaming me at the same time while I was JUST WRITING A REVIEW. He started s*** with me for no reason and told me that certain individuals on acurazine know what they are talking about and were fully convinced at Redline ATF would prevent all transmission related issues. That's where the beef is. He fully discredited any Honda ATF.

Experimenting with fluids is fine but some people here are paying the price.
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Old 10-16-2011, 12:13 PM
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^^^ you gotta pay to play....

I have preached about Type F as well....Couple members are very happy even with 90% percent of Type F....couple members have problems with even 1 drain and refill...Its how you introduce the new fluid in....

Imagine you have a baby and all of a sudden you start chocking the kid with solid food....u cant do that....get em off the liquids....give semi solid food...and then solid food....

you catching my drift ? your tranny which is 70-80K (on an average) miles used to FM's....all of a sudden you do a 4x3 with Type F....so in the next 20 miles your tranny is running on 20% or less FM's....will have issues....my theory....

and please keep personal grudges to a minimum....every car is different....
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Old 10-16-2011, 12:47 PM
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Originally Posted by t-rd View Post
And you were flaming me about 5 months ago saying "Honda fluid is bad yo...", when I simply writing a review about Honda's DW-1. Even made a point to bash me that I should use all Redline Racing ATF on ? 5 months later, I'm perfectly fine on DW-1. I told you to check in after 200k miles if you are still living large on that fluid. Looks like you checked much sooner because of a problem with mostly Redline Type-F ATF.
Originally Posted by t-rd View Post
I wrote a review of Honda's DW-1 ATF back in May after I switched to it on my 07 Accord V6 on . FollowingNFront jumped in and started preaching how Honda's ATF is s*** and everyone should switch to Redline Type-F while flaming me at the same time while I was JUST WRITING A REVIEW. He started s*** with me for no reason and told me that certain individuals on acurazine know what they are talking about and were fully convinced at Redline ATF would prevent all transmission related issues. That's where the beef is. He fully discredited any Honda ATF.

Experimenting with fluids is fine but some people here are paying the price.
You're right I did down Honda fluids, and I still will. However, when I commented in that thread, I was coming from a place where I was trying to help people, and I believe my approach was "sure DW1 is better than Z1, but Redline Racing is better than....." I never personally attacked you, and if you recall you and a couple other people actually went for my throat fairly quickly. But I am a man and I make mistakes too. I spoke a little too soon about the Type F in that case you're right.
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Old 10-16-2011, 07:51 PM
  #187  
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Originally Posted by JDM RICe View Post
Looks like the only local alternative is Mobil1 Synthetic ATF

Whats the consensus on using that versus Redline D4?

Are there any other brands of D4 I'm not thinking of that should be available locally? I kind of feel like I need to do this change now, versus a week from now, regardless of brand of fluid.

One week for the Redline to be shipped is fine. Do NOT use the Mobil 1. Order the Redline and wait the one week for it to be delivered. Then install it within a few days after it gets delivered. This is what I recommend.
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Old 10-16-2011, 08:01 PM
  #188  
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Regarding the Type F still being in the experimental stage

Yes, I do consider it as such. However, let's put some thing in perspective.

I have a lot of experience changing my ATF. I change my ATF every time I do an engine oil change. I have since my car had just several thousand miles on it. I have a lot of experience looking at that magnetic drain plug. I pay extremely close attention to stuff stuck on the plug every time I drain the ATF.

After seeing how clean, free of metal needles, free of grime and slime that the drain plug is after using RedLine Racing fluid......... I cringe in retrospect to all of the wear and tear that the trans experienced in the past prior to me switching to RedLine Racing ATF.

Regarding the "experimental stage". The corollary of this applies. One knows that their current ATF (Z1) is inferior because the drain plug shows the evidence with metal needles and black slime (worn away clutch material) on the drain plug. But the person continues to use it.

A sad analogy would be a terminally ill cancer patient. They are very much willing to try any experimental treatments. What do they have to lose? They have hope by trying the experimental treatment. To continue with the status que is sure death.

Bad Transmission Findings-ALL OWNERS READ! URGENT (click here)

Last edited by Inaccurate; 10-16-2011 at 08:05 PM.
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Old 10-16-2011, 11:54 PM
  #189  
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Hey Innacurate... You probably missed it, but can you please answer the questions I asked in post 178?

I went ahead and did 1 D&R with 3 qts. of D4. First off I just want to say that on my drain plug magnet, there was more crud this time than there was when I checked my last transmission (that had nothing but Z1 its whole life) at 40k miles just before I took it to Honda to have it replaced. I don't know what the hell is going on, but I only have MAYBE 10k miles with this Type F in my current trans.

Anyhow, after only a few miles I noticed that the flaring was gone. However, I also noticed that the car now feels less responsive. Although the shifts basically cannot be felt now versus the 78% Racing I had prior to this last D&R (both a positive and negative), I'm noticing less gearholding now (negative).

Perhaps the biggest gripe I have though, is the drastic change in engine braking now versus before... With the racing, there was a lot of engine braking which I loved. I could take my foot off the gas, and the car would start slowing down because whatever gear it was in, it was in... Almost like it was in grade logic mode most of the time. I could be completely stopped and take my foot off the brake and the car would just roll at around 3mph...

However now, while driving, I take my foot off the gas and it just keeps on coasting and coasting and coasting. And while stopped if I take my foot off the brake, it gradually accelerates to 5mph and probably a little more before it just keeps rolling... I don't like that. But I am assuming the decreased engine braking has to do with the decreased gearholding, which is also affecting the responsiveness in a negative way because the car now upshifts alot quicker than it would before. Which also results in a little more gearhunting now.

It seems that there is no win/win with these cars... My next car will CERTAINLY be a stick. These Hondas and their autos have me so turned off that I was even recently looking at brand new Hyundai Accents and Ford Focuses just to get out of having to drive my car. Ugh
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Old 10-17-2011, 08:54 AM
  #190  
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@ FollowingNFront

After your 3 refills, each with 2 Racing + 1 Lw, you had a viscosity of 8.1 cSt.

After your single refill yesterday with 3 D4, you have a viscosity of 7.9 cSt.

After your single refill yesterday with 3 D4, you have a 47% Racing mixture.

Driving the 5k miles with the flaring should not had caused any more harm than someone driving 10k or 15k miles with Z1 in my opinion. But, let me stress that this is just a semi educated guess on my part. The amount of wear that occurred should had been indicative by the crud that you found on the drain plug. And, you did mention that you found a lot of crud. Switching to D4 will not undo the wear. The D4 will just hopefully arrest (or at least minimize) any further wear in the future.

Regarding the other issues such as popping, engine braking, coasting speed, etc. - You summed it up well when you said "It seems that there is no win/win with these cars." It just comes down to trying the Racing fluid to see if you like it better than what you had before. If not, try using just D4.

I am not too surprise that the car is less responsive now. You dropped down to a 47% Racing mixture. There is a fairly large difference, if you are sensitive to changes in your car, between the 47% and the 65%.
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Old 10-17-2011, 03:30 PM
  #191  
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I don't see how the detergents would only be lasting 5k miles when it is also believed that you can take Red Lines ATF to 100k intervals. It seems that if the fluid is the cause of your flaring it is simply because there are too few FM's. For me I will do 2- D6's and 1-Racing Type F for each drain and fill. Since there is obvious uncertainty and downright guessing going on, I'm going to error on the side of closer to stock level of FM's as opposed to error on the side of to few FM's if it is causing issues. Basically, I think 2-D6 and 1-type F is safe will provide a great level or wear protection. I'm about 10k into a 3x3 of Type F but I'll change on my next interval until the storm passes, so to speak.
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Old 10-17-2011, 03:41 PM
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I'm pretty sure the detergents are designed to remove the residual buildup from running non-synthetic fluids previously; in the process, they get used up. After you switch to a full-synthetic, the Redline engineers don't anticipate any buildup of residue from the breakdown of their product.
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Old 10-17-2011, 11:23 PM
  #193  
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Originally Posted by Inaccurate View Post
@ FollowingNFront

After your 3 refills, each with 2 Racing + 1 Lw, you had a viscosity of 8.1 cSt.

After your single refill yesterday with 3 D4, you have a viscosity of 7.9 cSt.

After your single refill yesterday with 3 D4, you have a 47% Racing mixture.

Driving the 5k miles with the flaring should not had caused any more harm than someone driving 10k or 15k miles with Z1 in my opinion. But, let me stress that this is just a semi educated guess on my part. The amount of wear that occurred should had been indicative by the crud that you found on the drain plug. And, you did mention that you found a lot of crud. Switching to D4 will not undo the wear. The D4 will just hopefully arrest (or at least minimize) any further wear in the future.

Regarding the other issues such as popping, engine braking, coasting speed, etc. - You summed it up well when you said "It seems that there is no win/win with these cars." It just comes down to trying the Racing fluid to see if you like it better than what you had before. If not, try using just D4.

I am not too surprise that the car is less responsive now. You dropped down to a 47% Racing mixture. There is a fairly large difference, if you are sensitive to changes in your car, between the 47% and the 65%.
hmmm so lets say next week i do a D&R with 2 Racing and 1 D4... What % would I be at then?
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Old 10-18-2011, 10:35 AM
  #194  
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I'm noticing a lot of questions along the lines of "what percent of Racing do I have"? Rather than to have to rely on Inaccurate or some other forum member to calculate for you, let me explain the calculations so that everyone can do their own math:

There are 7.4 qts in our transmission.

If your ATF has no racing fluid yet, then the calculations are simplest. Simply figure out how many qts of racing fluid you have poured in and divide by 7.4.

1 qt racing:
1/7.4 = 14% racing

2 qt racing:
2/7.4 = 27% racing

3 qt racing:
3/7.4 = 41% racing

The calculations become a bit more involved on subsequent drain and fills. First you know how much you are adding, but then you need to figure out how much of your racing fluid will still be in there after draining 3 qts, then you can divide by 7.4.

=(RacingFluidAdded+(7.4-3)*PreviousPercent)/7.4

Examples:
You did a single drain and fill already with 3 qts racing so your ATF is now 41% racing (0.405405 to be more exact). You now do a drain and fill with 2 qts racing and 1 qt D4. Here is the math:

=(2+(7.4-3)*0.405405)/7.4
=0.511322

So you would then be at a 51% racing mixture.

Make sense?
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Old 10-18-2011, 01:41 PM
  #195  
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Inaccurate - just to clarify about the fluid percentages, I was doing the math, and also checking your previous posts. I came across your post on the Racing ATF thread waaay back when:


Heres the drain/fill percentage chart
1=39.5%
2=63.4%
3=77.8% <--- I am here. Did it today. Not test driven yet.
4=86.6%
5=91.9%
6=95.1%
7=97.0%
8=98.2%
9=98.9%
10=99+% <--- I hope to be here on May 1 2010

Even with the 8 racing quarts, wouldn't the percentage be higher than 65%? Thanks in advance...
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Old 10-18-2011, 02:14 PM
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^^^ May 2010 ?
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Old 10-18-2011, 02:59 PM
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Originally Posted by jhumbo View Post
I'm noticing a lot of questions along the lines of "what percent of Racing do I have"? Rather than to have to rely on Inaccurate or some other forum member to calculate for you, let me explain the calculations so that everyone can do their own math:
Foul !!!

This morning, I have been putting together the *identical* thing. But, I didn't get around to posting until now. And, what do I see....... someone beat me to it already.

I am still posting mine anyway. It is basically the same methodology. Just presented slightly differently.

jhumbo - No hard feelings guy. I snoozed (on the post button) and I lose.
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Old 10-18-2011, 03:04 PM
  #198  
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Below is how to calculate the percentages. However, please feel free to ask what your percentage is if you are not good with numbers.


How To Calculate Overall Mixture


New Percentage decimal = [ ( Current Percentage decimal x 4.4 ) + newly added qts ] / 7.4




Example 1
----------

A person is beginning to use Racing ATF for the first time.


New Percentage decimal = [ ( Current Percentage decimal x 4.4 ) + newly added qts ] / 7.4

New Percentage decimal = [ ( 0.0 x 4.4 ) + 3 ] / 7.4

New Percentage decimal = [ 0.0 + 3 ] / 7.4

New Percentage decimal = 3 / 7.4

New Percentage decimal = 0.40

New Percentage = 40% Racing mixture



Example 2
----------

A person is doing a 3x3 using all Racing ATF. They had no Type F fluid prior to doing this 3x3.


New Percentage decimal = [ ( Current Percentage decimal x 4.4 ) + newly added qts ] / 7.4

Refill #1 Percentage decimal = [ ( 0.0 x 4.4 ) + 3 ] / 7.4 = 0.40

Refill #2 Percentage decimal = [ ( 0.40 x 4.4 ) + 3 ] / 7.4 = 0.64

Refill #3 Percentage decimal = [ ( 0.64 x 4.4 ) + 3 ] / 7.4 = 0.79



Example 3
----------

Illustrating how to maintain the 65% Racing mixture. The person already has a 65% mixture and is doing a subsequent refill with 2 quarts Type F + 1 quart D4.


New Percentage decimal = [ ( Current Percentage decimal x 4.4 ) + newly added qts ] / 7.4

New Percentage decimal = [ ( 0.65 x 4.4 ) + 2 ] / 7.4 = 0.65


NOTE = I am intentionally calling this a 65% mixture in spite of it actually being a 66% mixture. I am doing this just because Monk would want it that way.




Example 4
----------

A person is taking remedial action to drop their mixture to 65%. They currently have a 87% Racing mixture from previously doing a 4x3 with Type F. The remedial action is to do a refill with 2 quarts D4 + 1 quart Lightweight.


New Percentage decimal = [ ( Current Percentage decimal x 4.4 ) + newly added qts ] / 7.4

New Percentage decimal = [ ( 0.87 x 4.4 ) + 1 ] / 7.4 = 0.65




Example 5
----------

A person has completed a 3x3 with Type F. Thus, they currently have a 79% Racing mixture. They are unhappy with the Type F. They do a refill with 3 quarts D4.


New Percentage decimal = [ ( Current Percentage decimal x 4.4 ) + newly added qts ] / 7.4

New Percentage decimal = [ ( 0.79 x 4.4 ) + 0 ] / 7.4 = 0.47


They are still unhappy with their 47% mixture. They do another refill with 3 quarts D4.

New Percentage decimal = [ ( Current Percentage decimal x 4.4 ) + newly added qts ] / 7.4

New Percentage decimal = [ ( 0.47 x 4.4 ) + 0 ] / 7.4 = 0.28


They are still unhappy with their 28% mixture. They do another refill with 3 quarts D4.

New Percentage decimal = [ ( Current Percentage decimal x 4.4 ) + newly added qts ] / 7.4

New Percentage decimal = [ ( 0.28 x 4.4 ) + 0 ] / 7.4 = 0.17
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Old 10-18-2011, 03:30 PM
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Originally Posted by FollowingNFront View Post
hmmm so lets say next week i do a D&R with 2 Racing and 1 D4... What % would I be at then?
If you did the next refill with 2 Type F + 1 D4, you would have a 55% Racing mixture.

If you did the next refill with 3 Type F, you would have a 68% Racing mixture.

If you did the next refill with 2-1/2 Type F + 1/2 D4, you would have a 62% Racing mixture.

If you did the next refill with 2-3/4 Type F + 1/4 D4, you would have a 65% Racing mixture.
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Old 10-18-2011, 03:33 PM
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^^^ now quickly post the same for viscosity before someone else post it
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