DetroitTigers

I just received the new Motor Trend magazine yesterday and they have named their car of the year for 2007. Disappointingly there were no Acura's as contenders this time. One thing I found a little irritating was that its winner, a 2007 Toyota Camry, puts up performance numbers (with an automatic) that slightly beat a TL manual for under 30K. Luxury features and quality don't seem to shabby either, hence it winning... (BTW- I don't always agree with the MT COY, but this seems pretty reasonable this year).

I am a happy owner of a 06' TL manual and just bought it in October 2006, but the MT COY kind of leaves a bad taste in my mouth when an Accord-rival steps up and not only pulls the rug out from under the Honda's feet, the Camry can do the same thing with the Accord's cousin, the Acura TL. I'm not trying to piss anyone off in the Acura forum, but if there are any Acura/Honda engineers/product managers out there reading these posts, "YOU NEED TO STEP IT UP A NOTCH OR TWO!" in this fearsomely competitive market segment... This is a challenge to Acura to strike back at its foes such as the Infinity G35 and BMW 335 that are up-staging the TL & TL-S in this market-segment...

Yes, these may not be apples-to-apples but they all compete in the same sport sedan segment were people do cross shop more expensive vehicles against the less expensive Acura TL (and it's more expensive brother the TL-S). This is actually one thing the TL has excelled at is to compete with the more expensive boys with similar performance/luxury but for less and w/ higher quality. So when a Camry that costs less than an Acura TL comes along putting up similar performance/luxury/quality, why wouldn't somebody considering a TL consider the Camry??? Intangibles---the Acura is a "higher class citizen" and looks cooler (Camry actually isn't bad for lesser segment), but saving 5K+ could change some ones mind to effectively get a Lexus at a bargain price. Not sure if the Camry can be had with a V6/manual combo. If the Camry isn't offered in a 6-spd w/ the V6, then it wouldn't have changed my decision anyway, since having a manual was part of my purchasing decision... For the majority of the population that want autos, this just would make it that much competitive anyway...

Yeah, I know performance stats vary from driver-to-driver, magazine-to-magazine, even same exact model of car, climate/location, but for the most part, they usually are within +/- .3 sec. 0-60 and .6 sec. 0-1/4 mile. With that said, I am at least keeping the source consistent for stat comparisons purposes. Car-and-Driver, Road & Track, Automobile, and other web-sources don't vary that much from one and another anyway...

Performance Stats:

Camry (auto):
0 - 60: 6.1
1/4: 14.6 sec @ 97.0 mph
Price as tested: $29,638
Reference:
Camry Comparison

Acura TL (manual):
0 - 60: 6.3
1/4: 14.8 sec @ 94.4 mph
Price as tested: $35,195
Reference:
TL Comparison
NOTE: Yes, this is a 2004 TL but engine-wise nothing has really changed and I am trying to keep the magazine/testing procedures semi-consistent...

Motor Trend 2007 COY:

2007 MT COY

Pika817

The new Camry is a nice car. Great ride and no slouch in the performacne department.

However, you (in Canada), you cannot get NAV, HID, among other standard TL features.

One thing I noticed about the article is that the TL is not considered because it's not a new design:

To be eligible for Car of the Year, a vehicle must be totally new or redesigned, and released in the 12 months prior to January 1, 2007 (cars with modifications such as new engines or that are variants of existing models are not eligible).

chill_dog

Do people really not realize that cars go through life cycles and that in the middle of the life cycle, any particular car will be inferior to another that has just undergone a complete redesign?

FLBusa

I'm never upset buy magazine "Car of the Year" tests... The ratings that they use are very subjective and if a car is near the end of it's model life cycle then they'll say things like Yeah Yeah same ol' stuff or The Acura TL is looking a bit dated...

I've been riding/racing motorcycles since I was 14 and whenever there's a test... the fastest or most powerful bike for the money always wins out. One magazine will pick the Kawasaki and one will pick the Suzuki and next year it will be something different.

Besides... Car of the Year is taken from all cars... From Luxo to Econo. A Gen 3 TL is in a whole other class than a Camry... Irrespective of 0-60 performance.

03CoupeV6

If I'm not mistaken, I read in MT that the car of the year for any given year has to be a new design for that year. That means the TL, RL, TSX are all disqualified. The MDX and RDX are not cars.

The Camry was a great choice.

DetroitTigers

This is a good point... It would be nice to see the future redesigned-TL get back in the running again... thanks for pointing that out...

I do realize that cars go through product life cycles. However, I would expect an Acura TL in a mid-life cycle to still be significantly beter than a newly redesigned Toyota Camry. Maybe this just shows the progress leaps that cars are making these days, especially in the lower-end spectrum. This starts to blur the lines between "full-loaded family sedan using generic brand" and "standard sports sedan having luxury branding". In the MT article, they basically say in different words that this Camry is a Lexus for less money...

I would typically agree that a Gen 3 TL is in a whole other class than a Camry, but I am indeed looking at the whole package price/performance/features/quality. If they had put Lexus badging on it and sold it for an addition 10 - 12K or so, it wouldn't be anything special because it is a 40K luxo-sport sedan... My point wasn't to focus specifically on performance, but the package as a whole, and it is pretty awesome from a non-luxo car.

Besides, us Acura TL owners take pride in stealing some thunder from the BMW 3-series and other more expensive cars which cost more and are sometimes viewed as a higher-end cars. There are many BMW people who would look down their nose at us Acura people the same way an Acura person might view the Toyota Camry... It really comes down to what the car actually provides...

fsttyms1

jupitersolo

Peoples eyes are closed. MT use to be a magazine where car guys could get great information. Now there just worried about getting advert $$$$$. What they put on the pages, people pretty much zombie too.

The current 3rd Gen TL had design started in 2002 or sooner. They did pretty damn good job, or they wouldn't be selling. Just wait and see what the 4th Gen offers. I guess by then people will try and compare it to the next Honda Fit.

This isn't digital cameras and TV's they change every 6 months.

FuZionBreeZe

To me a car is like a computer, either you buy it or you don't cause it will change within six months. Also I thought the 3 Gen TL came before the new camry, which mean new is better than the old one...? same goes to the lexus ES, it came later than the TL but if you look at the spec everything is a bit more...more horse, more speakers, more options.....don't get me wrong here I am not over to the toyota side....I am a honda kind of guy....I drives a WDP 05 TL.... Like you say acura better step up to the plate and bring it home or else.....

chill_dog

The Accord and Sonata both offer everything the TL offers, for less, as does the Camry now. This is the new standard for upper-end mid-size cars (non-luxury). As you said, this shows the progress cars are making these days.

Now, even at the risk of opening a can of worms, Acura is not a luxury nameplate...it's entry-level luxury, so it makes sense the lines are blurred between the TL and Camry (as they are between the TL and ES). The ES and Camry are night and day. Acura is in between the regular cars and the luxury ones.

What Acura needs to do is figure out if they want to continue being entry-level luxury or truly luxury with an entry-level car(s) in the line up (as the others are). Given the direction of their current operational moves (no RSX, TL-S with more power, goodies for more $, AWD on all future vehicles, etc.), it appears they are trying to become full blown luxury. Time will tell.

PeterUbers

iTrader: (1)

V8 in lineup = full blown luxury.

barry stevens

Those Camries are like a disease. I can't drive 500 feet without seeing a new one. I can't imagine how a car just introduced can infiltrate the market so rapidly. Good for Toyota, but no thanks!

03CoupeV6

The 07 Camry was introduced early this year so it has had a while to infiltrate the market.

ding069

the 07 camry really is a nice all around total package. IMO for the everyday driver, looking for a nice car, good performance, great reliability, borderline entry level luxury the camry is a smart choice.

you really can't disagree with them, there is about a $5,500 difference between the two and some people may not want to pay that for an acura emblem.

really, what does the camry lack that the TL has? nothing really for the everyday driver

jupitersolo

Compared to what? Is a Crown Vic luxury because they offer a V8, is an Impala luxury because they have a V8.

Than lets think luxury. BMW, MB, Lexus all HAVE V8's are you going to spend $60,000 dollars to get one, just because they have V8's in them?

DetroitTigers

I have been reading some of the major car magazines (C&D, R&T, MT, Automobile) in one capacity or another for over 20 years now and I agree that MT has soured over the years. It is just one reference among many. You take all the info from magazines, Internet write-ups, and threads with a grain of salt and make your own decision. Yes, some people might pretty much take what the magazines write much like a zombie. Aside, from being able to be one of the lucky few that can actually test all of these cars, we are at the mercy of quantitative and qualitative information that is available from all the sources. If you look at the facts, read between the lines on their opinions, and you get supportive information from other sources, then you can make an informed decision. Actually test driving is still the best bet, but not always practical. In past memory, I usually don't agree with the MT COY award (I don't even agree with many of their finalists and contenders much of the time), but this year it seemed like a reasonable choice.

Regardless, I'm not trying to get into a pissing match about Camry vs. TL. I still will pick my Acura TL 6-spd over a Toyota Camry auto in a second. The point is that there are huge improvements being made below the Acura's target (Toyota & Nissan) and above (BMW, Infiniti & Lexus). The redesigned TL with AWD needs to standout in much the same way that a 3-series twin-turbo or 300+hp G35 do but for less money if it wants to keep it competitive advantage...

No can of worms here, I can handle the entry-level luxury terminology, this is probably why I went with the Acura in the first place. IMO they should continue to do what they do best, build high-quality entry-level luxury that can take bread off the plate of the full blown luxury plates. The thing Acura needs to do is provide luxo features at entry-level prices like they have in the past. Taking bread off the plate of the big boys has been Acura's bread-and-butter in the past. Why ruin a good thing?

Pika817

I remember my parent's old 1983 Buick Regal V8! I miss that brown car... now if I could just paint my new car brown. What do you guys think?

PeterUbers

iTrader: (1)

1) In reference to the crown vic comment .. huh?? I'm not the first one to comment that because of a lack of a V8 in the lineup, Acura isn't taken to be as serious of a luxury contender as other luxury marques.. you're misinterpreting my point.

2) Yes (in reference to your second comment).

jupitersolo

No don't want a pissing match, I hope than we can type out our thoughts here as if we were sitting around on a deck drinking a few beers.

As far as the design, you know that Acura you make they next TL (4thGen) better than what's being done now. With the Type-S, you can't compare a Toyota to it. What they did from 2nd gen to 3rd gen was great. So you know that 3 to 4 gen will top out. You know SHAWD will be part of it.

What Acura did with the new MDX, compared to the old was nice. If I was buying today it would be the MDX and not TL.

dalieu

i'm not buying a toyota anytime soon...

2007 camrys have transmission problems:
http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dl...024/LATESTNEWS

toyota has recalled almost a million cars:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13046349/

jupitersolo

OK, But you know that Acura will not put a V8 in a TL. Maybe the RL. But the talk is about what Acura is to do the next TL to get away from the new gen Camry. Hell, wait and see what Honda does with the next Accord.

Of the cars sold with V6 and an optional V8, only 12% purchase the V8. I don't see Acura selling this way. Honda likes to put as little as possible choices in a car to keep their assembly lines efficient. They are no opitions on their cars. It's the same but with or without navi.

DetroitTigers

Yeah, I'm on the same page---drinking a few beers on a virutal deck. Funny thing that prompted me to write this thread was actually sitting on my deck after I had read about the Camry and thinking that I should post something on the forum.

The SHAWD will be an awesome feature to have in the TL. I had an Eagle Talon TSi AWD and loved the AWD. AWD was one of the things I really wanted in my car, but I still kept coming back to the TL. The Subaru Legacy spec.B was a very fun car to test drive and that was one I was considering. The SHAWD in the TL will be very nice, but I don't know if I would buy it right away until they have the bugs worked out, even though it should probably have good Honda quality...

rondog

iTrader: (1)

$$$ talks, not that the choice is in valid, but politics play a large role in the winner. count how many ads from toyota are in the magazine over the past few months, and you'll see.

FiveLiterCheater

Too bad the new camry is ugly as balls

MR1

I have not read the MT COTY article but from what I remember the Camry rides like a marshmellow and handles like a boat. Not fun to drive, just good (fast) reliable inexpensive transportation.

The Camry is a top selling mass market car, TL is a niche car that serves a smaller segment. If you just want fast and cheap with lots of stuff get a GTO or something. The TL is a half step up.

ding069

but to most everydat driver, women and older folks, that is what they are looking for. The camry is fast straight line, but it can't handle for shit. but who pushes, the car....enthusiasts.

you won't be seeing many purists buying camrys, thats for damn sure, but to gram and gramps, i couldn't pick a better car for the money.

chill_dog

It is a good niche for them, and it has done very well for them to date, so I would tend to agree with you. However, as I said previously, given their current direction of features, price points, and future plans (all vehicles AWD, V8, V10 [NSX]), it seems they are trying to become a full luxury line as opposed to just entry-level. Or maybe that's just the trend; these are the things of entry-level luxury and the luxury manufacturers are going to step up what they produce as the regular manufacturers have, with prices reflecting this (inflation at its best!).

Macruz19

All I have to say is wait for the upcoming next generation Accord in 2008 I think....

The new Camry is having some issues on their steering and transmission, but the TL is one of Consumer Reports most realiable cars! That's all what matters. If I remember, CR has 2 Acuras, and 1 Honda. They have 1 or 2 Toyotas as top realiable cars from CR.

IMO... those car magazines like C&D, MT, and R&T, are about the performance of a car. They do a lot of road testing, but some of the articles are a little bias in my opinion. I subscribe to all three magazines.

I also subscribe with Consumer Reports, and when I usually shop for a car or COMPARE... I like to get all the info I need like prices, safety, and what's recommended. I wish they had longer reviews on a car. If I want to see the peformance and road testing, I would then switch back to the other car magazines.

chill_dog

http://www.truedelta.com/

pimpin-tl

The Camry might have won, but if they kept the car for a long term there would be many complaints and problems. Like transmission failures, rattles, squeaks, poor quality, poor gas mileage.

We had TWO 07 Camrys, first one was replaced by Toyota (tranny failure at 350 miles), 2nd one again 1800 miles tranny failure, toyota bought them back and we got the RL with no problems.

The Accord/TL is a more reliable car and personally better built over the Camry.

Final

Ill stick with my Acura as well

pimpin-tl

You do know Acura is considered a Luxury nameplate with Lexus and Infiniti. And the RL is a full luxury vehicle, not a entry luxury like the TL is.

Pika817

I would consider Acura and Infiniti at the same level. BWM, Benz and Lexus in the same level - I wouldn't have added in Lexus 3 months ago, but with that new LS460, they've broken into SL Class territory.

chill_dog

This is what I meant by not wanting to open a can of worms...that said, in most circles, Acura is not considered a luxury nameplate, it is considered entry-level luxury...it is in between the Honda's/Chevy's/Hyundai's of the world and the Lexus'/BMW's/Mercedes'. Yes, the RL is a full luxury vehicle, but nothing else in the line up is.

Civic > Accord > TSX > TL > RL > GS > LS

Yes, there are many other variations of the above evolutionary chain using other cars, but the fact is, as you move to the right, you gain more luxury. The Acura nameplate is in the middle; it graduates you from regular cars to luxury cars; it is entry-level luxury.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luxury_car

03CoupeV6

Wow I'm surprised that so many Acura owners are quick to sling mud at Toyota for a transmission screw up. Have all of you been living under a rock? In our garage is a Japan-built 98 Camry with 150k miles and a 2002 Acura TL with 70k. The TL has been through two transmissions, two complete dash consoles, two CD changers, 4 sets of rotors, 8 speakers, 6 motor mounts, a case of 20A fuses that blow constantly on the windows, and two sets of front seat leather. Currently the window trim is peeling, the motor mounts are broken again, the transmission shifts strangely, and the rotors are warping again.

The Camry, with more than twice the mileage, has been through 1 EGR valve. Period.

I'm afraid I will never be able to look at any TL as a superior built car to a Toyota product. My experience is exactly the opposite. But my experience is irrelevant to the fact that a bunch of Acura owners are giving Toyota grief for transmission failures and a recall of 1 million vehicles. Honda's transmission screw up affected 1.1 million vehicles across the Acura and Honda lines. So let's not go there.

The Camry is a great car and deserved its COTY award. I'm sure in 2008 when the Camry is not qualified and the Accord is, that the Accord will likely win. I doubt that the TL will ever win, but we'll see.

jupitersolo

^^ How can you say "SO MANY and a bunch of" when out of 34 posts it was mentioned 2 times and another with just a link to the problems the new Camry is having.

Hell, one of the post, his experience, had 2 07 Camry's. AND BOTH FAILED so bad that Toyota had to buy them back. Your 02 TL didn't win the MT COTY.

Toyota does make a good car. I haven't read the article, but I'd bet MT doesn't mention the problems Toyota has had with it, that's were I have a problem. But I will try and read it.

I think Toyota is getting too big and there loosing some focus.

winstrolvtec

That Tl is an auto, I still have that issue of Motor Trend. Think about it, the times are close to the previous gen type s, auto, 260hp. The manual has varied a bit from one magazine to the next, but I remember MT getting 5.6 and 14.2 for the 6mt a-spec. The Camry is a nice package, but I would still take an Accord any day, and the TL is much better than the both.

Pat D

I was reading through WAITING for someone to mention the new Camry transmission problems, and suddenly "there's so many slinging mud?" Wow. . .

I agree, Acura has had their share, but how many people have you spoken to that had to have Toyota buy their car back (And for some people, TWO cars!) And even Lexus is buying back a good amount of the ESs with the same problem. That right there is one of the reasons I stopped looking at the Camry when I was ready to buy a car (That and the TL was a better deal.)

03CoupeV6

I guess "so many" and "a bunch of" were incorrect, but still it seems hypocritical to hold it against Toyota and buy a Honda. Sure, I'd be turned off and not buy a Toyota if I'd had two of them be bought back.. it's not that I blame anyone for looking to another brand for bad experience. But back in the days when those 2nd gen TLs were new, there were quite a few buybacks of them, as well.

Overall, I like both companies for different reasons.

pimpin-tl

No but you have living under the rock. The 07 Camrys are having serious problems. As are the ES350s. Transmission, Rattles, and so on. The 06 and below Camrys were built much better and were a better vehicle. Toyota got CHEAP and made the Camry a nice looking car but also built it in America and thinking about getting big before quality now.

Yea but at Least the Acura made it over 2k of miles before the tranny failed. And Acura knowledge it had issues unlike Toyota trying to cover it up.