J's05TL

I'm new here so please go easy on me. I've been spending my time searching and it has answered a lot of my questions/concerns with my car as to what is normal and what isn't. I still have a unique situation that I need some advice on from other Acura owners. Here is my story...

In June 2007 I purchased a 2005 Acura TL 5AT with Navi (32k miles) as a Certified Used Vehicle. I drove the car and checked it over for the normal things, etc... I then pulled a car fax report, I noticed there was an accident reported.

I brought this to the attention of the dealership before buying the car. They responded that Acura will not certify a vehicle that has had any major body work. They showed me the information from Acura that talks about a "Vehicle History Review" and that they inspect for any Unibody damage or prior repair. I was also assured that if anything came up that the Certified Used program treats the car pretty much like a new car in warranty terms and will fix the car etc...

So, time goes on and some strange things begin to happen.

I first notice that my Power Windows make a horrible noise (yes, I know this is a known issue) but this is causing scratching on all my windows (no tint). That isn't normal and at least they should be replacing something to prevent the scratching.

Then I'm driving to work one morning and the Navi screen goes gray and then has lines all over the display and is locked up. It stays this way for 3 days and I take pictures of this... Finally on the fourth day I got in the car to go to work and I saw the normal Acura boot up logo. It does this still from time to time but is random. I do have documented proof of what happens (thanks to my camera phone).

Then I started having a loud (almost like a blown speaker when turned really loud) sound coming from the back of the car (without the radio on and all the windows rolled up). Obviously this isn't normal.

Then my remotes stopped working unless I was standing next to the car. I replaced the batteries (as I've done with other cars and resolved this issue) but that didn't help. I noted this issue.

The back windshield has began to leak and is causing the rear brake light (high mount inside) to start having the fabric come off.

The Automatic Transmission when in Manual Shift mode will randomly not shift up when used. Always between 2nd and 3rd gear at RPMs above 2.5k. It is sometimes hard to reproduce but normally with 2 or 3 tries you can get this to happen. You have to hit it a second time and then wait about 4 seconds before it will switch between 2nd - 3rd. When in "D" from time to time (without cruise) the car will shift into a higher gear, randomly, taking the car out of overdrive. This is getting to be a constant annoyance and you have to let off the gas for it to recover (and it's not being held near a "computer shift point" it can vary from MPH).

Minor but the plastic cover on the back of the passenger seat has come undone and won't stay attached to the seat.

There is also a rattle coming from the front above the driver seat near the visor that is noticeable all the time.

So, this all has happened in 3 months of owning the car. I took my car to Lindsay Acura to have it Maintenance B performed (which is where I purchased the car) and expressed my concerns and gave them the picture of the navi screen.

I'll make this longer story shorter by saying I had a BAD experience (you can see that story at my blog, http://www.johnmassie.com )

They kept my car for 2 days (after saying they'd only have it for an hour) and then after avoiding me and not calling me I finally managed to trick my way into getting someone in service (I called and said I wanted to schedule service and just happened to get my service manager on the phone) he said, "We talked to your sales person and he assured us that you were fully aware that this car was in a MAJOR REAR END ACCIDENT and these issues you claim are a result of that."

So I came back with all the info about it being certified and how this shouldn't be happening because if it really was in a major accident they claimed Acura wouldn't certify it.

He responded, "Well, if we start tearing apart your car we don't know what we're going to get into."

What kind of response is that? Do they know the whole back end of this car has been ripped off and replaced or something?

I know maybe it is my fault for buying a car that had a carfax accident reported but I've had a car that was in a fender bender that got reported and all that was done was a bumper cover was replaced and painted and it showed up on my carfax when I sold the car as "accident".

I'm going to contact Acura directly because according to them it should have never been certified if it is having as much body work as the dealer is claiming. Hopefully everything makes sense (the much longer and full story is on my blog and details a lot more of the conversation between me and the dealer). If you guys can provide anything to help me I'd appreciate it.

I do love my TL though, it was a great car it just seems to be falling apart around me!


Thanks in advance,
- J

Mastervtec

Wow, that's too bad about your circumstances. You may want to let us all know which Acura dealer you bought your car from so that everyone can avoid them. Good luck with everything, hope it all turns out well for you.

dug-mac

It is unfortunate that you're having these problems. Probably the degree of success you have in getting the results you want hinges on the approach you take to resolve them. You seem like a level headed guy, so that is a plus. I wouldn't do anymore of this over the phone. What is your rapport like with the salesman who sold you the car? Obviously he told his manager one thing, but would he lie to you face to face? I would go to the dealership and try to get some straight talk on how they see the situation. Do this as unemotionally as possible. This will be difficult, but they need to see that you're only wanting what is fair... Your age probably works against you to some extent, but if you know that going in you can offset that...

With regard to certification I have seen many Acura's that were certified that had accident reports on carfax. Perhaps they do examine these cars and differentiate between "structural damage" and "superficial damage" - I don't know.

If you don't have success at the dealership then I would pursure Acura Client Services. It seems to me that if the car were certified they should fix whatever issues you are having. In effect they seem to want it boths ways - to be able to sell you a car with the certified premium, but then not stand by the car because it was "in a major rear end accident". Good luck with this and let us know what happens...

MR1

^^

What Dug said plus elevate. I would make an appointment to talk to general manager and service department manager only. Possible they don't even know what has happened. I suspect that they will need to drive the car for at least a few days due to the nature of the problems. Take the loaner and let the system try to work. Ask for a straight answer regarding the accident. Depending on outcomes from above, agree with the repairs or request a return of the car.

Know what outcomes you desire depending on condiion of car and responses. Stay calm and professional, good luck. Just me $.02.

wasupdog

iTrader: (2)

ugh that sucks. good luck getting it resolved though.

darksom1

Sounds like the certified car will eventually be "de-certified" and fixed and/or you will be due a refund. Personally, I would opt for a refund, as your purchase was done under false pretenses. Valuable advice from these guys tho - maintain calm and professional approach. Don't give them a reason to blow you off. Might be a long road ahead, but there is light at the end of the tunnel.

Good luck!

VmtSquad

iTrader: (1)

I dont know how it works in your area/state, but here we have the "Protection du consomateur" ...means "Consumer protection". It has alot of rules that protect consumers against fraudulent seller like yours. Try to get in touch with this protection and see what you can do....

Keep us updated.

aw1

This totally blows. Sorry about your situation. Doesn't the individual car dealership certify the car and not ACURA itself?

J's05TL

Wow, thanks to everyone who responded! I'm working on talking with the dealership about this issue and plan to have everything documented in writing. To answer some of the questions asked throughout the posts (and I'll read all of them again, I'm at work and scanned through the posts to see what was said).

Where did I purchase the car from?
Lindsay Acura in Columbus, Ohio

Was it certified by the dealer or Acura?
The car was sold to me as an Acura Certified Used Vehicle with the Acura paperwork to prove this. I also know this because I purchased the 100k extended Acura Care warranty which can only be done (from my understanding) on a Certified (by Acura) Used Vehicle and got promotional financing through Honda for the car. True the individual dealer does do the certification but it has to pass through Acura to get the "approval" to extend the warranty and such (so you can take it to any Acura dealer to have it serviced).

I'm a big advocate of the BBB and plan to engage them as well. I've been very lucky with getting results from them and I think it's important for stuff like this to show on their BBB record for future customers to be able to see. Despite my age (I forgot I put my birthday on here) I do conduct myself in a very emotionless and professional manor. Through this point the most I've done was demanded my car back but I have not acted out or stepped outside the lines of professionalism, I wish the same could be said for the dealer.

I'm following the advice given here (thanks again) with the exception that I'm engaging Acura Client Services now before talking with the dealership because I don't trust this dealership anymore and I'm tired of giving them my car and then they avoid me and won't tell me what they're doing to my car or their justifications besides "it was in an accident".

Honestly, I don't want this car anymore. I specifically purchased the car certified used because I wanted a car that wasn't in an accident of any severity. Obviously if they seem to claim that all these issues are a result of "said" accident it was more than just a fender bender and it has some sort of structural damage.

I'll keep everyone posted as this unfolds.

Thanks again!
- J

dug-mac

I feel that you're taking a good approach with this. You've started a process that hopefully will uncover the dealerships obligations with regard to the car. Naturally you feel slighted by their misrepresentation and the way they've handled things. It is their turn to make good on the warranty and hopefully both of you (you and the dealer) can fashion a workable relationship - at least until they have served their purpose. I know that this car has soured in your mind (because of the problems), but I wouldn't make the goal of this process to get them to take the car back. If that happens, great. But more than likely they will simply address the problems as you've presented them (as they should have in the first place). In the end you want to feel good about your car, so if they won't replace it you need to find satisfaction in knowing that you did all you could, that you did it with integrity, and that you've learned something in the process - and that your car now has a story! Good luck...

J's05TL

Well, I've been silent because well, I just changed jobs and it's put a lot on my plate and I've just parked this car in the garage and drove the other one while trying to find time to get all this taken care of. Well, it was good thing I waited, I've discovered more problems. Now the rear electrical system is failing. Sometimes the car has brake lights / turn signals... sometimes it doesn't and sometimes the turn signals flash fast like their burned out... and they're not.

So, I started digging into the history of this car. I started at CarFax, it was clean minus the one "minor" accident I was told about. However, no air bag deploys or major damage reported. I was then able to obtain the police report for said "minor" accident. The car had deployed all its air bags, the driver was transported immediately to the hospital for severe injury and it wasn't just a rear end accident, the car was in a "pile up" and was in the middle. On the police report it was reported the car was not drivable and on a scale of 1 - 7 of damage, it was rated a 6. Also the police officer further wrote down "Acura has EXTENSIVE front and rear damage. Rear windows completely blown out.". I'm copying this and sending it to Acura Client Services and the BBB.

I've not worked with the dealer because due to my blog, I found some other Lindsay Acura customers who've had issues with the dealer. One lady tried to deal with the dealer and they just blew her off time after time until she finally contacted ACS and BBB... she and others advised me to skip the dealer and go straight to ACS and the BBB which I'm doing today and mailing all this paperwork to them. Lindsay will only take any contact you have with them and twist anything that is said in their favor.

I'll keep you all posted as this goes on now that I have the process started. After reading the police report I don't want this car. I have no clue what it's going to do after I own it for longer. I've barely put 6k miles on this car and look what has gone wrong so far.

Thanks again for the advice!
- J

pokin

Wow! this really blows! I never really lent much credibility to the "Certified" sales gimmick. However, Carfax? can trust this record either?

Just a thought: you may also seek opinions by posting in some of the lawyer forums on the net.

steve9207

J's05TL - thanks for the update...keep us posted.

While there have been many good suggestions on here, I'd like to mention that I've had good luck with ACS in the past. Short version; on my 97 CL...dealership had my car over 30 days, wouldn't give me a loaner (they took it back after 2 days), backed over a curb and damage the side skirt, scratched my stock wheel, and the service guy was a total jerk about it all. The service manager on the other hand was very helpful and sent the car to a body shop and offered to pay for a new wheel. I wrote a letter to ACS, the called me immediate and asked what I needed to make things right. I told them I wanted my rental costs paid for - done. I just had to take the bill to the service manager.

Another reccomendation is to get the Ohio Attorney General's office involved. Check out this link for their website. You can file a complaint online. They will investigate it and try to make things right for you. Although, I'm not sure how this works if you have a concurrent complaint open with the BBB since I've never used them. (Although when I bought my TL they wanted me to sign a release saying I wouldn't contact the BBB for any issues and would work with the dealership to resolve any issues - obviously, I declined to sign such a document, haha).

Good luck.

steve9207

pokin - regarding the Carfax; the report will show you whatever is reported to them. Reported being the key word. If the body shops don't report any work, it won't show on the report. As far as I know, by law they are not required (perhaps certain states may vary)? Also, I don't know if Law Enforcement / Insurance Companies report, I suppose this varies from one to the next.

A first hand story though - my old car was struck by lightning while I was driving it; knocked out the alternator, battery, sunroof, heated seat, part of the trans (speed shifting type sensor), etc. This didn't show on the Carfax. Then, the ex-g/f somehow managed to over extend the passenger side door and it was sticking out about 2 inches where it met the front fender. I took this to a local body shop and paid cash. This didn't show on the Carfax either.

So, to your original statement, I would say that, YES when something actually does appear on the record, you can trust it. However, if nothing shows, this doesn't always necessarily mean nothing happened, ya know?

VQPower37

hope they buy that car back, and u can get urself into a new third gen ... sorry to see this happen to u, but as we all know dealerships love to make money, and they will even cheat a person to do so ...

Mpunk

J's05TL -

Wow, sorry to hear about your ordeal, man! I hope everything works out for you. I have an '05 TL 6MT that I bought during the summer. It's also a CPO but apparently once it's certified, the CPO follows the car and can be transferred to the new owner. I had a recent flat tire and actually called Acura Roadside and they were great! Plus, I had a great deal on the CPO, partly because of our local used car glut, so when you get yourself out of this mess, hopefully you can find a used CPO and get a great bargain. Pretty much every new car out there (unless it's an F430 or Gallardo) will depreciate like mad. The last car I had that I bought new ('03 Altima) lost about 40% of its new car price in the first 18 mos (I was looking to trade it in) so unless you plan on keeping it forever and a day, buying CPO - in this case, a good, never-been-in-an-accident car - makes really good $ sense.

I'm obviously not any sort of expert, but does the certified pre owned program offer the same kind of protection as the lemon law does for new car purchases? I mean, isn't that part of the whole point of Certifying used cars - to give would-be buyers "like-new" protections and peace of mind? Perhaps Ohio law provides additional consumer protections for buyers affected by lemon certified cars.

Regarding CarFax, I know from personal exp. myself. I was rear-ended in an accident w/ the Altima a couple years ago (not-at-fault) and it caused about $2K worth of damage to the rear bumper, pass. side tail light & rear quarter panel, and trunk. I filed it thru GEICO and they subrogated the claim to the at-fault responsible party. The body shop eventually fixed it to almost like-new (they didn't fix a tiny paint chip on the trunk lip area) but when I went to trade this car in for the TL, it never showed up on the CarFax report. The accident reporting may have been at the discretion of the insurance company - kind of like when you take out a loan, the bank may choose 1 of the 3 credit reporting bureaus or may report it to all 3. I'm thinking that's how it works. In my case, though, even though the accident was relatively minor and was largely cosmetic with no structural integrity losses, it definitely helped when it came time to trade the car in.

Finally, about the whole mess, it kind of sounds like Lindsay Acura ought to lose its Acura franchise. I don't know how many Acura dealers are in Ohio, much less where you live, but even one bad apple of a dealer is too much. My experience at Pflueger Acura in HNL has been pretty awesome to date. They offered me a courtesy TSX even when I was bringing it in for a warranty check-up which lasted like a few hours. They even wash, vacuum, and lightly detail your car when you pick it up.

In Hawaii, auto dealer sales people and their car dealerships are required by law to be professionally licensed. When a car dealer salesperson misrepresents a car, or otherwise does something illegal/unethical, you can report this to the State. The case gets heard by some kind of state committee/oversight panel and they can impose sanctions and then they post these results online - like if the guy/dealer got fined or whatever. Interestingly enough, a salesperson at Pflueger Acura and the dealer itself got fined $5K for misrepresentation. The fines/sanctions also get published in a major, widely-read local business news publication.

Good luck with the ordeal and let us know how it progresses!

MR1

Good point's by MPUNK. After my MDX received $10,000 in damage, I took it to the dealer for an unrelated repair. In less than five minutes they were telling me that the car had been in an accident.

Point, there is no way they can't tell it had been repaired. Original factory parts have bar codes numbers that the replacement parts don't have. Looks like outright fraud from here. Give them Hell.

KJSmitty

If someone hasn't mentioned it already I would be looking into getting an attorney.. Don't threaten the use of one, just get one now!

I've been down the BBB and State Lemon Law route and having an attorney will make it a near slam dunk. I can tell you right now, my BBB folks were in-bed with the auto manufacturer. I definitely wouldn't trust them with my/your better interests. Getting the state lemon law folks as well as the Attorney Generals office involved lit a fire under many folk's ass....


Have I mentioned (this week), that all dealerships suck!!?????


Best of luck - I'll be dying to read the outcome and pray the dealer has to give you your money back..

eaglegreen48

I concur. It looks like your are very good with keeping detailed notes and such. I would definitely make a copy of everything for yourself while you are pursuing this. You have been sold a bill of goods by this dealer. You will get justice.

J's05TL

First off, thanks to everyone who has posted. It's very encouraging to at least have a user community support you when you're trying to go through all this.

I've been working on scanning copies of everything I have to send to Acura, BBB, Attorney General. I'm looking into the lemon law, but I believe in Ohio you have to "have it repaired 3 times and then if it fails on the 4th it qualifies for lemon law". I'm looking into the lawyer thing, many of my friends have suggested the same thing since the car was sold under false pretense and the dealership signed a paper that was marked "no unibody or previous damage done to vehicle" on the inspection form for the Acura Certified Used program.

I got in the trunk last week to look at something and saw a folder laying there. I opened the folder to find that the stupid dealership had taken the file for the car and left it in my trunk by accident. It details what was done to the car when the dealership received it as a trade in. I guess when the car came in it was severely out of alignment (all 4 wheels) and needed new tires. The alignment kind of concerns me because the tech noted "Car extremely out of alignment, needs done before cert. can be passed". I personally have never heard of a car with 29,000 miles in need of "severe" alignment.

I will keep everyone posted as this continues this week. I'm sending the following documents, please let me know if you think I've left anything out.
1. My Letter Explaining the Issues with the car and my experience thus far
2. All my sales forms (warranty, loan, etc...)
3. All my personal service records + the checklist for certification with the tech notes about alignment
4. CarFax
5. Michigan Police Report and Code References
6. My AHFC Statement for loan information (to Acura)

If you see anything I've left out, let me know ASAP... but I think that's everything I'm going to need.


Thanks,
- J

Turbonut

iTrader: (1)

Keep in mind that the Lemon Law is for new cars within 1 year or 18,000 miles:

Ohio Lemon Law

Is There Protection for Used Car Buyers?
If you are looking at buying a used car, keep in mind that Ohio's Lemon Law does not apply to motor vehicles more than one year old or driven more than 18,000 miles.

Good luck on your quest, and it will take a great deal of effort on your part to have the situation rectified. Hate to say this, but next time make certain that the car has not sustained any collision damage by checking the numbers on all the components, and/or having someone knowledgeable inspect the vehicle.
Got to remember that dealer's are constantly contending with buyer's remorse, and if they let everyone that was disenchanted with their car do a return, they'd be out of business.

I also believe that the Certified title would allow you to do a return within 2 days of purchase had you consider a major inspection and detected the previous damage.

Good luck and keep fighting!

123456SPEED

Good luck, sounds like you have an excellent case. Too bad some Acura dealers are so unprofessional. I have bought a few certified Acuras and to me the program with it's 'inspections' is generally just a marketing device.

I bought a certified 95 Legend Coupe (with 45k miles) from an Acura dealer and there were so many things wrong with it, there is no way they did these inspections to certify it.
Headlights were way out of adjustment, tail light was out, abs sensor was on, passenger seat was stuck and would not move, driver window would not close properly. Many of these are minor but very obvious to have been able to pass their 'certified' program.

Hope you get satisfaction soon. you can also involve local media if nothing else is working.

J's05TL

Well, I know it' s been quite since October. I went to Acura Client Services and they did an investigation and they said that the dealership must deal with me directly and to let them know if I had any issues but it was "technically" out of their hands.

I was then contacted promptly and I sent them the requested information (police report, carfax, etc...). After they did their "investigation" they called me and told me they'd like to meet with me. I figured that was ok. They then called me back and told me they wanted to meet with me and include some more dealership people. So I figured out they were going to do this whole "gang up on me" tactic.

I was talking to my friend and he agreed that he should go with me. If anything just to be there as a witness since they're obviously less than honest. So, we get there today (after I took time off work to go) and they freak out when there is two of us. So after waiting for almost a half hour they say "we'll... we'll take John (me) back to meet with everyone and then your friend can wait in the lounge until we are done."

My friend spoke up and said, "What, I can't go back with him? I'm here to support him because obviously you have more than one person in there."

The sales manager muffled something about "something more at stake here" and that they could not talk to me. So... looks like I'm going to be talking to a lawyer this week. Any suggestions would be great!


Thanks for the support... I'll keep everyone up to date.

aw1

What bunch of ASSHOLES!!! Fuckers better give you a new car for this crap...

Sounds like they were going to give a low ball offer which they know you will reject and let it be known that they did try everything to solve the problem.

Keep us posted.

ankur914

Good call on bringing the friend! Maybe you may want to forward your story to a news station and get them exposed for the frauds they really are; that way, it may help your cause (hopefully). As an aside, i hope they get shut down for their illegimate and deceptive business tactics. Hope you get compenstated for all that you are out, including lawyer fees. Keep up the good work and best of luck to you!

johnnysquire

In Ohio, it's generally legal to record phone and live conversations without tellling the other party. It might be a good idea to record your conversations with the dealer, since they're clearly afraid of getting sued. My guess is that they know you have a fraud claim against them, but they want you to settle and were going to try to negotiate that when you came in and having your buddy made them nervous about trying to be pushy.

Aman

good luck with this, but it seems as if you wont need luck, since justice will (hopefully) prevail.

J's05TL

Updated / Questions:

Well... I went an saw a lawyer and I'm preparing to take them to court for a long list of things. This is such a nightmare; the Acura just sits in the garage and I continue to make payments. Acura corporate won't back their certification program and sticks the blame on the dealer and said that they will have no part in it. My lawyer believes that they too are at fault because they assume responsibility for the warranty but that's for another discussion.

I need your guys help (once again) here is what my lawyer has asked of me.

1. My car HAD a Certified Warranty booklet when I got the car. I left it in the glove box and I didn't realize until I went to the lawyer and went into the glove box to get the booklet... that it was mysteriously gone along with all the other "certified" crap that they give you when I got the car back from the dealer when I took it in when all this began. I need a copy of this booklet as I believe it states the warranty terms (if I recall). Would someone on here be so kind as to somehow provide me a copy of the book? Please reply/PM if someone would be willing to help me out with this.

2. For the Central Ohio people on here (I think I've seen a few) does anyone know of a good body shop that can look at this car and see if there is any prior body damage and/or current unfixed damage and provide me a report? I need some recommendations if possible.



Thanks everyone for the support and comments. I hope that I can get somewhere with this and get the word out about this dealership so others won't have to go through all the crap that I'm going through. Maybe someday I'll actually get to drive a TL like I originally planned on almost a year ago when I got this one.

Thanks in advance,
- J

shooter

Wow .. the saga continues ....

We will cover your back .. well morally at least ... LOL