Anyone considered ungrading the stock speakers? Any members have sizes,specs for the stock speakers?

Thanks for any input:diablotin

 

The speakers seem pretty good so far, although I would consider upgrading the subwoofer with a more efficient model. I wll also be interested to see how this develops!

 

I was told at a dealer that the fronts are 5.25" and the rears are 6.25" (didn't ask about the center front, sub being an 8"). I thought that radio stations sounded ok but lacked high freq response (my 91 integra gs has custom Kenwood/Infinity Kappa system). I would probably replace the 2 fronts and maybe the sub when I buy the car later. I heard somewhere that the TL is a 8-ohm speaker setup???? Anybody know if that true and if one can get aftmarket 8-ohm car speakers????
Andrew

 

I'm no audiophile but the mids and highs sound very clear.

The only complaint I have... the subwoofer seems underpowered or small (it may very well be both). My old RSX-S had a crappy Bose 8" sub and it seems like the sub in the TL is following in that tradition (granted, with nice improvements). The MDX has a very nice sub setup but it may be the rear cavity shape and that it's a 10" (I think).

I'd like to see if anyone replaces the 8" with another brand or perhaps a 10" (if feasible).

 

8 Ohms is a standard value for speakers, but most cars are 4 Ohms because it lets the amp put out more power.

 

About three weeks ago I posted my comments and measurements of the TL audio system. My conclusion was that the high frequencies are severely attenuated above about 10 KHz. For practical purposes, there are no upper-highs in the TL. Increasing the treble control only exaggerates the lower-highs (from about 3 KHz to 10 KHz) with little increase in the upper-highs. The lack of highs is by far the weakest link in the TL audio, based both on my hearing and on measurement. It robs strings of their shimmer and most instruments of air and sparkle.

The mid-bass and lower-midrange is somewhat excessive and sometimes results in blurring and muddying of the music. This can be helped to some extent by lowering the bass (not subwoofer) control a couple notches.

The subwoofer is actually very extended and fairly flat to almost 20 Hz and even has a fair amount of output at 16 Hz. This is almost as good as my servo'ed 18" subwoofer at home. The TL's subwoofer bass is also fairly tight which is one of the advantages of a small subwoofer. Granted, it can't play excessively loud but then neither can the rest of the system, so this is no disadvantage as far as I'm concerned. Cranking the subwoofer above the default level results in bass that is unnaturally high in level which smears the upper bass and lower-midrange. Assuming your goal is sonic accuracy, the TL subwoofer is excellent as is.

 

Where are the highs being attenuated? Is it a crossover problem or tweeter problem I wonder?

 

can all the speaker including the sub on the new tl be replaced w/aftermarket speakers, sub, and amp, AND be hooked up to the stock headunit?


i hear it can but u may lose the ability of the navi to talk back to you

 

Good question and I don't know the answer. My first guess is that it is tweeter placement (pointing at the windshield, not the listener)and the fact that the center channel has no tweeter. Some people have talked about replacing tweeters but I'm not hopeful. Even really cheap tweeters have a much better upper frequency output than we hear from the TL. (I measured the system's output at driver's ear-level.)

 

Thanks for your comprehensive yet succinct reply.

As mentioned, I make no claims of being an audiophile. My initial subjective experience (albeit not extended) may prove to be skewed as a result of the sound system in my MDX.

I'll heed some of the setting recommendations (as offered by you - thanks again) and re-evaluate accordingly.

Cheers

 

Has anyone replaced the tweeters????

 

I read that the stock speaker sizes are 6.5" in the front doors and the rear deck. 1" tweeters in the dash. The 8" sub in the rear, and a 3 1/4" midrange in the center dash. I would be interested to learn the impedance of the stock speakers, as well as the equalization/passive filtering used in the stock system. I am also curious how the power is divided among the 8 speakers (my best guess is 50 watts to the sub, and 25 watts to each remaing speaker). Any of the speakers can be upgraded with aftermarket equipment. If you choose to use the stock amp make sure to replace the stock speaker with an aftermarket speaker with the same impedance (i.e. if the speaker is 8 ohms, replace with an 8 ohm speaker).
I don't think that the lack of high frequeny response is due to equalization. I believe that since there are 5 channels of high frequency information, and only 2 of those channels have tweeters, that the high frequencies are attentuated in reference to the remainder of the frequencies that have an adequate number of speakers. Therefore, replacing the stock tweeters will yield little result unless they are MUCH more efficient than the stocks.
As long as the factory amp does not have any other function than to amplify the signal that is sent to it from the source unit, then you can upgrade the entire system (minus the cd/dvd/nav unit) and still be able to use all functions (including voice).

DNA - your review was very helpful and provided the most/best information that I have been able to find concerning the TL's stock system. Your spectrum analysis graph was very helpful. What other equipment do you have access to that will allow you to take measurements of the stock system?

Unfortunatley I do not own a 2004 TL (yet - thinking early next year) so I can't experiment and disect the system. I had DVD-audio in my current car (panasonic unit as well) and thought it was wonderful - so I look forward to the Acura system. That being said - I do plan on upgrading (while retaining the source unit) very shortly after purchase, that's why I am looking for so much information now, so that I can best plan for the future.

-Kris

 

DNA,

Can you do another test at speaker-level, to assess the actual output of the tweeters? If this test is conducted, it would lead to the answer: is it tweeter placement or tweeter performance... or both?

I for one would really like to boost the 10k+ range to provide the true sonic experience that DVD-A has the potential to provide.

Jon

 

Yes, I agree. That, and the upward facing tweeters, are my top suspects for the lack of highs. For discrete 5.1 channels sources, the front three channels would be most important for getting the treble correct since loss of the upper-highs in the surround channels isn't as significant because natural reverberation typically rolls off highs anyway. That is why I have specifically mentioned the lack of tweeter in the center front channel.

For 2-channel stereo, however, the rear L-R speakers in the TL are in parallel with the front so their lack of highs become part of the total sound. If the lack of tweeters in all channels is the main reason the TL is lacking in highs, one would expect that 2-channel stereo would sound as if it had less highs than 5.1 channels where the back two channels are mostly ambient reverb. In fact, that is what I hear and others in this forum have also reported. Many have attributed the greater TL highs when playing DVD-A compared to CD to the higher sample rate of DVD-A. However, if this were true one would also hear much greater highs in home DVD-A's, and that's not usually the case. Also, CD's measure almost perfectly flat up to 20 KHz (the highest frequency I can test and beyond what any male old enough to drive can hear), so the DVD-A theory can't explain the improvement in highs.

[BTW, When I took my measurements, it was with 2-channel CD source (I don't have a DVD-A test disk .. yet) and all channels were enabled.]

It would be great if the lack of tweeters in the center/back-L/back-R channels was the major source of the problem since it should be possible to replace the current drivers with drivers that also include tweeters (coaxial or otherwise).

On the other hand, if the problem is mostly due to the upward facing tweeters, the solution would require external tweeters facing the occupant's ears, something which would probably be cosmetically undesirable and tricky to install.

Since my original comments several weeks ago, I've been wanting to make additional measurements that would help define the cause of the problem. For example, measuring just the front-L or the front-R channel should be very enlightening and should confirm the whether or not the solution would be to include tweeters in all 5 channels (or at least the center). It should also be possible to measure the tweeter output a couple inches or so above the tweeter.

It would also be possible to model the TL's modal distribution to see if the various major peaks and dips in the frequency spectrum correlate. Because of a cars rather complex geometry (compared to a rectangular room), it would be a rather crude approximation. And there's not much one could do about it anyway. ("Officer, I had to put acoustic foam on all the windows to tame the nasty 400 Hz peak I was getting.")

Unfortunately I haven't had much time for further testing. Hopefully during the Christmas break I'll get a chance.

-David

 

I was busy typing my last note and didn't see your note until just now. Yes, it should be possible and I agree it would shed a lot of light on the problem.

 

Given that the tweeters are firing into the windshield, is it possible that the "acoustic glass" that Acura's using to increase cabin isolation is also sucking up the higher frequencies from the tweeters? I guess it would depend on how the acoustic glass works, whether it reflects the sounds trying to intrude or absorbs them. If it is reflective I'd think that would actually be beneficial for the sound reproduction, but if it absorbs the sound that could be the culprit. Does anyone know how the acoustic glass is supposed to work?

Jim

 

Hello DNA,

Thanks for your post.

I have felt that the "blurring/muddying effect" is the worst I've heard in a quality cars sound system. I mentioned this to the dealer, and they made it sound like you can't please everybody. Now I'm no young punk who wants the ultimate in sound systems, but this level of listening annoyance is not what you would expect from a car touted to have state of the art music system.

Furthermore, the XM, which I assume is mostly digital, sounds the worse for this effect, compared to even regular broadcasts. Has anyone else noticed this? Mr. Shiner puts in DVD-A 5.1, yet it sounds very sub par unless you have his Demo disc going, or a DVD-A in there.

I would like your thoughts, and possible remedies for this.

Overall, I like the TL, but this is something that needs to be addressed.

 

I'm not of the same opinion as David that the position of the tweeters is the culprit. My parents' Inifiniti stereo system (stock) in their minivan has astonishingly crisp sound, and their speakers are also on the dash shelf... firing into the windshield.

I agree with Z Factor that the EQ was burned in to maximize DVD-A performance and left all other sources in a lurch.

Hopefully, David will conduct "direct" tests of the tweeters soon so we can get past speculation and start addressing the audio quality issue head on.

Everyone is right... for such a touted feature, it's fairly shocking how normal the system sounds... when not playing DVD-Audios!

Jon

 

Just for the record, I said that the position was one possibility and I certainly didn't mean to leave the impression that I believe this is the case. However, I'd be surprised if the problem is due to either accidental or intentional rolling off the highs. This would cost them extra, for one thing. And although DVD-A's may have a little more highs, it is still greatly lacking in upper highs. So my leading theory is the lack of tweeters in 3 out of the 5 full-range channels.

I haven't had a chance to measure yet and probably won't until Christmas shutdown. However, while driving I did play with moving the sound front/back on 2-channel sources (CD and XM) to see how that affected highs. If you put it full back you will certainly notice that the sound suffers a huge loss of highs (as heard from the drivers position). This is not surprising, of course, since the back channels have no tweeters and have the back headrest blocking their path to the front. There is also clearly some improvement in the sound (for those in the front) in placing the sound almost entirely to the front.

(If you set the front all the way up, the subwoofer is turned off. I'm not positive about this, but it sounds to me as if the subwoofer output is otherwise the same no matter where else you set the front/back control, so I don't think the subwoofer is derived from the back channels when in 2-channel mode. I am puzzled as to the reason Panasonic decided to turn off the subwoofer if you moved the output entirely to the front. In any case, this is not a problem as even one click to the back turns the sub back on.)

For the last couple days I've been leaving the front/back control just one click away from full front for 2-channel sources. I like this better. the sound is smoother and clearer, and there is a little more treble. I'm eager to measure this setting. However, it certainly is not the entire answer.

I don't know how "acoustic" glass works. The salesman said it was sound insulation sandwiched between layers of glass the reduced outside noise. Not sure if that's the case, but it sounds reasonable to me. Normal glass is highly reflective to high frequencies. However, if you do a little geometry by drawing a line from the window to the windshield and then double that angle to get the angle that the sound would be deflected, I think you'll get something pointed much lower than your ear. Again, measurement would tell us something.

Addressing Z Tech's comment on XM, I'm not sure if it has less treble than CD and there's no way one could measure that unless XM were to broadcast test tones. I listen to XM a lot and will certainly sign up when my 3 months is up. But XM's audio quality is much lower than CD due largely to the high amount of compression. How objectionable it is depends on the music. Unfortunately I listen a lot to classical music where XM's compression seriously degrades the sound. String ensembles, for example, have a weird unpleasant "phasey" quality. Music that is less sonically complex fairs better. I don't know if the high-end is rolled off on XM but I wouldn't be surprised as that would reduce the bit-rate significantly.

As far as the muddy mid-bass problem, moving the sound to the front for 2-channel sources helps. Reducing the bass control a couple clicks also helps. Keeping the subwoofer near the default center position helps.

 

David,

Thanks for the always-informative and well-reasoned posts. I look forward to your future tests, as they will help all of us determine the best next steps in improving the fidelity of the TL sound system.

All this from a guy who has yet to actually buy one yet.

All in good time...

Jon

 

While no audiophile, I've been enjoying reading these posts. One question: I noticed that the highs seem to improve quite a bit on some of my CD sources by opening the sunroof cover. In fact, it makes a fairly noticeable difference if you try opening and closing it. Anyway, I'm curious if folks like DNA have tried this and their thoughts on this.

Cheers,
Bruce

 

anyone pulled the tweeters out of the dash? Love to see Pics..