That's true. Really, it is all about branding. Besides, Infiniti did everything people on this board are recommending, and the M isn't a big seller either.

 

beating them for a year in a car that didn't get any serious upgrades 05-13 isn't enough, obviously.

You need to dominate for at least a couple years and not just 1v1 but in multi car comparisons over the years.

We're talking about performance crowd obviously, to everyone else you need to show what you got and bring it. Reliability is great but those who lease don't really care.

 

Yea, the 2g RL was one of the best in the segment when it came out. It even won the Japanese Car of the Year in 2005. But it was too small, and its look is too bland. After 2006, many competitors had FMC/MMC that left the RL behind. The fact that Sh-AWD was not well known didn't help either, as people questioned why only AWD was offered.

 

^^^^^

Due to the FWD horsepower handicap for FWD chassis vehicles, Acura had no choice then but to use AWD to handle the 300hp.

Back then, handling tuning technology was not mature enough for Honda to put 300hp on the front wheels and still maintain good vehicle handling characteristics.

But now, it can, even with 310hp.

 

this is going to sound a little silly but I have seen old Civic's doing quarter mile in under 9 seconds...with front wheel drive.

I think Acura can figure out how to control 300hp...

 

3G TL-S is a great example of that - 286hp through a 6MT to the front wheels. Despite its slower straight line performance and inferior tires, it lapped about 2 seconds faster than both G37S 6MT and IS350 at Willow Springs track. The RL might have 300hp back then, but that was under the previous system as the power output was revised to 290hp shortly after. It was also mated to 5AT which sapped way more power than the 6MT in the TL. We are talking about 250-260whp in the TL-S 6MT versus roughly 220whp in the 5AT RL.

 

I've seen an article stating that SH-AWD 6 speed lapped faster than a 335i but never seen one about TL-S.

Either way, NSX better blow away GT-R or it's gonna be just another boring car.

 

300hp on the front wheels accelerating in a straight line - YES.

300hp on the front wheels when the steering wheel is not straight - NO.

RWD vehicles has no such max hp limitation, because the rear drive wheels don't do steering.

But now, Honda suspension tuning technology has broken the previous limit of max hp for FWD vehicles with PAWS, and the current limit is ~310hp.

 

I am not yet sure what I prefer, wheel tugging on FWD or rear sliding on RWD.

I think I preferred SH-AWD.

Also, from what I understand, P-AWS does not increase traction to the front wheels, so if they would break loose before, they would break traction now just as well.

 

The TL-S won against IS350 and G35S, but I have never seen a comparison between the 335i and the TL-S. It could be a close match

Yea, P-AWS does not increase traction. Its main features are to minimize oversteer, understeer, turning radius, and to improve stability.

I think it's mainly down to suspension setup when it comes to torque steer. It's easier to reduce torque steer with a double wishbone suspension design.

 

Import an Audi RS6 Avant?

 

might as well get a local GT-R...or tune a WRX STI.

 

Nice cars, but hardly alternatives when shopping for a four-door. And I have (well, its the wifes) a WRX.

Those RS Audi's are pushing $100K, and while I'd love to drive the RS7, I'd probably not want own it.

Not many options in the luxury/sporty AWD category, I think we've listed or discussed all the reasonable alternatives so far in this thread. Did we miss any?

 

I condsidered a RLX briefly. In the end it came down to Audi A7 or A8 or Mercedes CLS to what I bought, which was a Jaguar XJ supercharged. I found the A7 overpriced and didn't care for the frameless windows and noise in the car. It had also pretty cheap materials inside. The Jaguar (XJ) had by far the most elegant interior of any of the cars. The tech is a gen behind the RLX, but I didn't care. As a driving car, with all aluminum body and 470HP, it's amazing. Comfortable, quiet, and goes like stink with active suspension modes that go from comfort to sport to super sport.

Why do you need AWD in Georgia?

 

Because SH-AWD is not just for inclement weather, it's for improvement in dry weather handling. Unfortunately, Acura failed to get that message out during the 2G RL's run.

 

Yeah, I got that, but in my mind, it's a RWD car versus SH-AWD to cross shop in Georgia, not FWD. Off topic, but I can't believe Cadillac did the same thing with the XTS and offer a FWD base model.

 

Do you think the name "SH-AWD" was part of the message problem. Even if someone knew it meant Supoer Handling, it sounds like a gimmick.
Quattro sounds macho and conveys a special kind of AWD.
Why not try to come up with something that has Torque Vectoring as part of the name, like "Vector Drive". I don't think they ever got the message out for what benefits SW-AWD provided

Now we have "SH-SH-AWD"

 

Ok, I just read a bit back why you want AWD. No mention of the Lexus LS 460 AWD F sport, although its a bit pricey and age demographic is kinda "old". The GS is supposed be much improved, but have not looked at it.

 

Several reasons:
As Neuronbob states, handling is a big one.

But I live in the mountains, and whether rain or snow or ice, the hills are steep and roads slippery for half the year here.
The road in front of my home has an 18 degree slope at it's steepest. Then there are some tight switchbacks that have similar slopes on portions. Going up them is a blast in an AWD car, impossible for 2WD cars in many conditions.

 

Ah, we cross posted.

Yes, the Lexus 460 AWD sport would be a nice alternative. A bit heavy, and even in the 'sport' guise, probably not what I'd like, but then, I've not tested that variant. Last LS I drove a few years ago was such grandads car from a chassis dynamics perspective, I just could not contemplate piloting one.

 

Agreed, naming is a big problem.

Personally, just simplify the name to Sports Hybrid.

 

I posted in a different thread.

The XTS is a stop gap for the former DTS owners until they come out with a true flagship vehicle.

The XTS is simply a dressed up Buick LaCrosse.

 

Had to much fun today with a coworker that drove his new BMW 6 series to work today. I asked him if he cross shopped it with the new Acura flagship the RLX. Mind you he bought the car for the badge and knows nothing about cars other than the lease payment. Another coworker jumped right in making up a ton of facts that the new Acura out did the BMW, motor trend luxury car of the year etc. Could not have thought of a better April fools prank. I am sure he is going to hit the Internet to research the car tonight to find out we were busting on him.

 

RLX an April's fools joke...that can't be good for business.

 

The Lexus GS-350 F Sport prices out at $60K fully loaded. I'm going to test drive this next week.

I test drove the GS-350 without the F sport package and it handles really nicely. The GS-450 Hybrid prices out at $75K fully loaded- $70K with most options.

I'm waiting for the infiniti Q50 hybrid to come out this summer. Sat in it at the NYC car show- it looks great. Prices out at $55K and gets 30 city/30+ hwy mpg. Their M brand is a couch on wheels.

I don't like the Cadillacs.

Will look at an Audi A5 and a couple of MB's.

Will look at the 3 series and 5 series BMW.



The Lexus LS is a bigger car and compares more to a 7 Series Bimmer. It also has a starting price of $80K I believe.

Let's be patient. The Hybrid RLX may be something special! I have a soft spot for Acuras- my last 3 have been terrific vehicles.

 

You didn't do an intervention? Have to tell you, no contest badge wins in this case at least for me. I could give a hoot about smart luxury, that 6 series is smooth and for me would pick it over the Acura, cts et al sight unseen. You could tout Acuras technology all day long....however get in the 640 and mash the gas...with manual transmission yes. Know you were busting on him however...

 

Wow, it's amazing how prices have crept up on these cars. The 2G RL went for low $50s fully loaded as I recall. Actual selling price, much less. I found the old window sticker on my old 08 GS350 AWD. It was just north of $52 and the only thing it didn't have was adaptive cruise.

Acura is in a bit of a dilemma with the pricing of the RLX here. Price it too low and it's not perceived as a flagship luxury car or brand. Two things they are trying to correct in the market. Price it too high and you get into LS460, entry level A8 territory. People who those cars, mostly lease and don't read forums and reviews. They buy by reputation, brand and monthly payment.

The first 6 months of sales will make or break the car. If they have to drop the price or give dealer incentives like the last one, it will be a long sad story.

 

I have no doubt they will have to do incentives,even Lexus will give you $3K+ off a GS350, Infiniti is giving about $4-5K off the M right now and a comparable loaded M runs around $62K with similar tech just not Krell. And I will take my M over the FWD RLX any day of the week. Yeah I would miss out on the Krell, but for me my M drives so much nicer than the RLX.

 

The Yen value has changed in lock step with the prices, not to mention inflation. Still, I suppose this is the true definition of 'sticker shock' in that the price is initially unexpected till you understand.

As for incentives. It seems to be part of the plan (not speaking for the company) The internet lease example for the Tech debuted below MSRP. In recent years, what Acura [i]hasn't[/1] debuted at a starting price higher than expected? Does anyone remember the 'shock' when the TSX was announced at $27K back in 2003? The (outgoing) 3.2 TL was at ~29K transaction price. Now it's one of the most beloved Acuras released in the last decade.

 

At the RLX price, Acura needs to take the naming more seriously...PAWS may seem clever, but to BMW and MERC buyer's, it's nothing more than a joke.

 

Yet Lexus sells a boat load of these vehicles.

 

I saw a new LS460 fsport in a parking lot yesterday. It was a sharp car, but not as striking as I would have expected. I had to have a second look to see if was a LS, GS or ES. Maybe I'm just not used to the new look yet, but the old LS was easily distinguishable from its littler cousins. Even in the fsport trim, I can't imagine Lexus going very sporty, other than body trim. It just doesn't fit their demographic and majority of the customer base. I was going to drive one a few weeks back, but passed as I was 99% sure I did not want another Lexus this time around.

I had driven the old LS at taste of Lexus and found it one of the most quiet, comfortable, but disconnected driving experiences around. From what I have read the new luxury Hyundais have similar characteristics as they are emulating Lexus.

 

I have test driven the GS350 a few times recently as they has been on my list. A few things are quickly taking it off my list, first unless you get the F Sport they all have wooden steering wheels, can't stand that. Next their tech is not as up to date, and that damn mouse controller is lame it is the worst thing I have every used.

 

^^ Keith....Thanks for the info about the GS. I had it on my shopping list too but am on board (no pun intended) with you with the wood steering wheel. I guess I will have to wait and see what the TLX will look like before making my decision. I am starting to wonder if an Audi will eventually sit in my driveway?

 

Here's another car people might cross-shop with the RLX, the Lincoln MKZ. I just saw one in the flesh yesterday and it is a stunning car to look at. While it may not have all of the tech features and high end interior furnishings of the RLX, a fully loaded MKZ with the 300hp V6 engine and AWD is still a couple thousand dollars cheaper than a base model RLX. Looks are subjective and all...but I think it is a significantly better looking vehicle than the RLX. Not saying I would take the MKZ over the RLX, but I do think it gives potential RLX buyers something to think about.

 

Living in the Detroit metro area, i have seen MKZs have been prowling the roads here for a while.

I agree, they are stunning.

 

I certainly wouldn't want to try and speak for all markets, but in our area, there seems to be very little crossover between those that buy imports vs. domestic luxury brands. There is less distinction between european vs. asian brands. Maybe it's because we're a 'tourist' destination with a huge fleet of rental cars, but most of the luxury domestic brands (caddy, lincoln, buick etc) on the road are not individual sales. IMO, this has made these brands less desirable (so it seems) to customers. Afterall, what makes a caddy or lincoln special if any joe shmoe can rent one for $70 a day?

 

I have coworkers with Avis status and they get the MKZ as the weekly rental once in a while. The inside of the MKZ feels a little plasticky to me and not up to Lexus/Acura quality. Maybe its just the fact that rental cars get used/abused by renters, so sitting in one you don't always get the same impression/desirability to purchase you get when you go to the dealership.

 

^^ Yeah, theres that too. But I was mostly referring to the impression that since 'most' on our roads are rentals, there is little 'prestige' in owning these for normal buyers. Thus, there seem to be fewer cross shoppers of domestic brands than there might be in other markets.

 

Are you referring to the brand new redesigned MKZ?