JonFo

No FWD-model talk please, this is about the SH-SH-AWD version coming soon and what other brand / models are you cross-shopping it against.

Lots of opinions by used buyers on this forum, what I’d like are opinions and thoughts from those of us actually planning to spend $60K - $80K on a new car.

Here’s my list and my thoughts:

Audi A7 / S7 – From a sheer looks dept. this one would be it. The S7 is a beauty and a beast, but pushes the upper end of my price range. Quattro is good, but the torque vectoring rear is fragile. Overall reliability and weight are my concerns with this one.

Cadillac CTS Sport Wagon AWD Premium ($57K) – What can I say, I love wagons and hatches, this one is one hawt-looking wagon. Worried about reliability and lack of big power on this one.

Mercedes Benz E350 4Matic Sports wagon – ($69K optioned the way I want it) – Solid, nice, but performance is not superb (unless you go for the $93K AMG variant).

None of the above are hybrids, all have lower power than the SH-SH-AWD RLX (except maybe the S7) and all have compromises I’m not too thrilled about. I really wish I could get an RLX styled like the A7, with Acura build and technology, but the sheer beauty of the A7 hatch.

So I’m currently leaning towards the AWD RLX as my next ride. I find the combo of tech and ‘stealth wealth’ very attractive. Which is why I stay away from bimmers, too many posers and bad value for money on that brand IMHO. The M-series cars are great, but I’d never own one.
The RLX styling is too bland, but not offensive, just not as distinguished as it could be. An aftermarket or custom grille is the first mod I'll be making to mine. Hate the shield thing.

So what’s on your list and why?

CeEl

Jaguar and (don't laugh) Buick LaCrosse (both AWD). I just don't like all that aluminium in the interior of the XF and the XJ gets a bit pricey really quick.

I agree with you on the E350. I may even consider the coupe. Since they will release a slightly restyled one and make more tech available on the coupe in spring, it's something I am seriously thinking about.

JonFo

I briefly considered the Jag XF now that it's available with AWD. Priced the way I want it (with a nice Meridian sound system) it comes to $67K.


Can you share more of what draws you to that one?

Carbon Legend

Just got back from chicago auto show and sat in and got a static feel for alot of the AWD cars. The RLX and Kia Cadenza (FWD only sadly) were my favorites of the show. Genesis Rspec was very impressive as well. Just felt at home and comfortable in the RLX and Materials seemed to be better than 2G RL and the Krell stereo was very nice. Audi's are just everywhere and IMO overpriced overhyped.

JM2010 SH-AWD

^^ Agree with your comment on the Audis. We spent time in every one from S4 to A8, and I just don't get it, much less the price they are asking for these rather ordinary cars. Audis used to have interiors that were head and shoulders above other luxury cars, but I've just not seen that the last several years. The interiors on the cars we saw looked plain, dated and the quality of the materials was nothing special. But the prices were. Add in the iffy reliability, and it's just a non-starter for me.

CeEl

I am a sucker for gadgets. The air vents opening when starting the car, the shift knob rising into the driver's palm and the heartbeat light on the start/stop button. In addition, I like the exterior. Just the right combination of aggressive, yet still elegantly subdued, and not screaming for attention.

JonFo

RE: Audi interiors, I had a 2002 A6 S-line and its interior was head and shoulders above the rest of the field. The new A7 interior is very nice, but this new RLX seems (from pics) to give it a run for the money.
Besides reliability and lack of value, my other beef with Audis is how nose-heavy they are. Plows like a sun of a gun. Maybe the torque vectoring rear helps, as when I got my RL, I can whip that baby around tight curves with no drama.

JonFo

Agreed, the exteriors are very nice on the new Jags. Right mix of style and restraint to yield something I think of as 'elegant'.

I too love gadgets, so maybe I shouldn't go test drive one

Only problem with those gadgets in a Jag is their infamous low-reliability rep.

NJ06RL

To the OP: for Merc, if the E350 is a little short on power, would you consider the E550 4matic - no need to get the AMG. 4.7tt 402 hp seems quite a lot.

JonFo

Thanks, yes, that would do the trick in the power dept. Love the sound of the Merc V8s.

But it's only available in sedans, and if going MB, I want the wagon body style.

GoHawks

While I don't have a CTS Wagon, I do have a 2012 CTS Premium AWD Coupe. I have had the car for a year and have put 13k miles on her so far. While it is still early I have been very pleased with this car with only one unscheduled dealer visit for a seatbelt buckle that would trip the seatbelt warning light. The interior materials are very nice in Premium trim. The 3.6L engine has 318hp and is no slouch, but it's no hot rod either unless you spring for the V wagon. I would say it is comparable, or maybe slightly quicker than my previous '06 RL. I like the car A LOT!

One thing to keep in mind is that next month Cadillac will introduce the redesigned CTS sedan and there is doubt that they will create a coupe and wagon versions for it. Instead those models may be reserved for the ATS. The next version of the CTS is supposed to go upmarket and the word on the street is that it will offer a twin turbo vision of the 3.6L V6.

beach109

I will say this. Give a new P-AWS RLX seat time versus those other competitors, on real roads or a track, or even vs. the current SH-AWD RL and don't just think "it's FWD". Stereotypes don't mean much, and Honda knows a thing or two.

Tick tock until the embargo.

JonFo

Uhm, AWD is for more than just handling (admittedly a big priority for me), but some of us either live in snow-belt states, or like me, in the mountains with steep grades and switchback corners that leave 2wd cars spinning their tires.

Sort of like brakes, if one needs stopping power on all four wheels, then I need go power on all four as well.

Torque vectoring just makes blasting through tight corners at high speeds a gas

So for me it's not that I'm anti FWD, I'm anti-2wd in any flavor.

I'm sure P-AWS makes for a better FWD car in the dry, but it's not for me.

beach109

I understand your points, traction included, and that is valid. But you will have to drive this model first and push it, and see what you think. You may want to wait for the SH-AWD Sport Hybrid model, as it is an incredible AWD system, but for most and even most current RL customers the P-AWS will be more than impressive.

Sport Hybrid will be September-October as of now, pending additional details.

GoHawks

Well GM upped the ante today with their announcement of engines will be for the designed Cadillac CTS to be unveiled next week at the NY Auto Show.

Base engine 2.0T DI 4 cylinder (275hp 295 lb/ft torque)
Mid-trim engine 3.6L DI V6 (321 hp 275 lb/ft torque)
Upper level engine TT3.6L DI V6 (420 hp 430 lb/ft torque)

All of the above models will be available in RWD/AWD configuration with an 8-speed transmission.

The Twin turbo V6 WILL NOT replace the CTS-V model. There was no word on what engine will be in that beast, but the current CTS-V has a slightly detuned version of the V8 found in the Corvette Z06 and Camaro ZL1. I would imagine that same formula would continue.

Even the FWD Cadillac XTS will get the TT V6.

The output significantly surpasses what the RLX SH-SH-AWD model will have.

The key will be what the styling will be.

http://www.freep.com/article/2013031...gned-CTS-sedan

http://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/2...-turbo-v6.html

The competition is getting fierce.

Shotgun

That ACURA might be executing a very strategic and potentially brilliant ploy by delaying the introduction of the SH-SH-AWD model?

Rationale: Acura teases and releases the non-hybrid version of the RLX to gauge media, public, and customer response. While doings so, it carefully tracks the sales trend of the RLX but more importantly, it watches how the competition reacts to the RLX. Once the competition or the industry reveals their offering, ACURA springs forth with a tweaked SH-SH-AWD RLX model, that substantially outperforms the competition by providing superior performance and quality at a price point that screams "..We originally set the Asian luxury car standard and heres' the exclamation point when it comes to a truly smart luxury automobile..." I would find that message irresistible!

Given that ACURA always comes out of the blocks with leading edge technology that's quickly copied by the competition, wouldn't it be rad if ACURA turned the tables with a teaser model and then introduces the hybrid model that nicely addresses the "+" in the initially advertised 370+ horsepower SH-SH-AWD model along with a few other, unannounced goodies...

GoHawks Cadillac announcement brought this to mind - Your thoughts?

silver3.5

Wishful thinking never hurts, does it?

GoHawks

I suppose anything is possible and I of course have no idea how easy it is to tweak the output of the electric motors for the increase horsepower. I would imagine that the there is some complex algorithms to ensure that the motors and the engine output are in sync. Having said that, another 50hp is a lot to over come with just some programming tweaks. When GM first introduced the 3.6 DI V6 it was rated at 304 HP. In 2012 they redesigned the intake manifold, integrated the head and exhaust manifold, made some software tweaks, reduced weight and got the output up to 318hp (but only another 1 lb/ft of torque. the Version in the ATS makes 321 HP.

My point is that my guess is that if they (Acura) are going to up the HP in this short amount of time it's going to have to be with the motors because it would take a more drastic update to get it out of the engine.

The RLX still has an advantage in that the AWD set-up in the RLX is a more sophisticated due to the torque vectoring and of course the hybrid set-up. The AWD systems in the Cadillac ATS/CTS are geared more towards inclement weather. The CTS and ATS are RWD platforms and as such, the AWD is biased towards the rear wheels, but can direct as much a 100% power to the front wheels if needed. During normal cruising the power split is around 30% front and 70% rear. At least that was the setup for the current gen CTS, not sure about the ATS, but I would guess it's in the ball park.

There is no torque vectoring in the GM versions. How important is that to the general public?

We will have to see, but if history is any indication with the previous RL, not very important.

Shotgun

Yeah Silver3.5, I probably do have less than a firm grip on reality. But wouldn't it be cool???

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

The main features of the SH-SH-AWD is not just performance, but it also includes very good fuel mileage.

I can see the final output being around 380hp, but anything more than that, would probably require boost, or changing from 3.5L engine to 3.7L engine. I don't think we will see that happening. However, it's been said that for the next NSX, the engine will be turbocharged. If that's true, I won't be surprised if the RLX will eventually get a turbocharged version of the 3.5L engine plus the motors. That could slot above the 370+hp model.

Back on topic, GM is quoting 0-60mph in 4.6s with the new CTS TwinTurbo. That's not very fast for a 420hp car. For comparison, the IS350, G37, and 335i are not much slower than that. Perhaps that quote from GM is on the conservative side.

getakey

If the Hybrid SH-SH-AWD is $70K, I'm going to seriously look at the Tesla S

silver3.5

It would definitely be out of this world!

GoHawks

The cars you mentioned are competitors to the ATS. The CTS will be bigger, going head to head with the 5 series.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

I'm aware of that. Before the ATS came out though, it was the CTS competing at that level. Once we move up to the 5 series level, we will be talking about the competitors such as 550i, E550, S6, M56, etc. Those would be doing 0-60mph in 3.7s to 4.8s roughly. 4.6s would be just around average, assuming those cars don't get better engines in the near future.

037

why are you guys comparing 30mpg car to sub 4 second cars? they aren't exactly in the same class (speed vs luxury).

I'm considering a 2014 Genesis which should be AWD with a heads up display among other things.

I've missed that since my Bonneville days (early 90's SSE model)

GoHawks

The CTS was a 'tweener as Cadillac tried to gain a foothold. It had 5 series dimensions at a 3 series price. Now that they have built that credibility, they introduced the ATS as a true 3 series competitor, and the redesigned CTS will go up market and more directly compete with the 5 series.

After that the next task will be to introduce a true flagship. The FWD based XTS was merely a stopgap for former DTS owners. It's widely known that they are building a RWD based flagship in an attempt to compete with the 7 series, A8 and S Class

Whether they succeed remains to be seen, but they have had some success so far. ..

The CTS brought back some respectability and redefined the brand. It has aged though. the ATS has been a home run and the redesigned CTS looks promising.

Edward'TLS

This is something nice about the German premium sedans. From within each model family, buyers can choose from a wide range of trim selections, starting from the gas-sipping-lame-performance base trim to something in between as well as all the way to the gas-guzzling-all-out-hp max-peforming trim.


Audi A6/S6 : 2.0T-FWD, 2.0T-Quattro, 3.0T-Quattro, 4.0T-Quattro(S6).
BMW 5-series : 528i(x), 535i(x), 550i(x), M5.
MB E-class : E350(4matic), E350-diesel, E400-hybrid, E550-4matic, E63-AMG.


What this means is that it can capture a much wider range of potential buyers, that have different requirements and priorities in fuel economy and vehicle performance. So one can have a 30mpg premium sedan and another a 4.5sec 0-60 premium sedan in within the same model family.

Not to mention the availability of coupe models to capture even more young-at-heart customers.

But no such luck for Acura, which put it's emphasis more on electronic gadgets, rather than on multiple engine choices and on multiple vehicle-performance-level choices. A rather narrow customer base indeed.

JonFo

^^^ Sounds like with the RLX, Acura is beginning to differentiate their model line ups, with the choice of a FWD P-AWS and the upcoming Sports Hybrid.

If they get it right and the SH-SH-AWD is more like an S6 vs the A6 in terms of trim and performance, then they will be seriously competitive.

While I love the styling and power of an S7, I just can't bring myself to get a gas guzzler V8 when Acura is providing me the option of a high-performance AWD hybrid.
Also, I've owned Audi's before and seriously prefer the benefits of Acura's reliability over the German brands.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

The ATS has done really well in the press, especially when it's compared to the 3 series. On the other hand, I'm not sure if that's because the 3 series is regressing. It seems like the 3 series is no longer the "ultimate driving machine." No more smooth inline-6 engine for the base model, no more good steering feedback, etc.

Can't do much when the engine line-up is pretty limited to begin with. It would be nice if the twin turbo 3.5 engine with SH-SH-AWd system from the NSX will be trickled down to the RLX and other Acura models though.

Here's my ideal powertrain line up for Acura given what they have now:

K24 DI: 200hp/185lbft with CVT/6MT (base ILX)
K24 DI higher tune: 220hp/190lbft with 6AT/6MT (base TLX)
New 1.5L hybrid: 160hp/160lbft with 7DCT (ILX hybrid)
J35: 280hp/250lbft with 6AT/6MT (ILX Type S, base RDX)
J35 DI: 310hp/275lbft with 6AT/6MT (base RLX, TLX, RDX Type S, MDX)
J35 DI with Sh-SH-AWD: 370hp/370lbft with 7DCT (TLX, RLX, MDX)
J35DI with Twin Turbo and Sh-SH-AWD: 430hp/430lbft with 7DCT (RLX)
J35DI with Twin Turbo and Sh-SH-AWD: 480hp/480lbft with 7DCT (NSX)

Edward'TLS

^^^^^

Acura can bring back the 2.5L-I5 and the 3.0L-V6 (perhaps both with DI) into the RLX engine line-up, for the entry-level and mid-level trim models, and makes available AWD as an option on all trim levels, just like BMW.

This will vastly expand the fuel-economy/performance-level product mix and therefore customer base, for the RLX.

neuronbob

^^^^^^
This goes against Acura's behavior in the past, however, and the PAWS RLX already has five trim levels, more than Acura has offered in the past.

Still awaiting SH-SH-AWD RLX. At this point, it is a top contender for my next car in 3-4 years. I won't be cross-shopping with other AWD cars because I don't want it for inclement weather performance, but for handling prowess, power, and that 30-30-30 mpg figure. It will be unique, which is what I generally go after in my cars. Besides, I think I was one of the few people (as well as others here) who got what SH-AWD was all about in the 2G RL in the first place--it was always about handling and not just bad weather.

Colin

We are too. Got a few customers who are interested but want to see/drive the hybrid before they make a decision.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

I think Acura is trying to find a balance point here. Obviously, it's difficulty to sell a $50-$60k car if there's only one trim level as shown by the RL. On the other hand, Honda is too small of a company to do what others are doing - having many different configurations and options. In the end, I think having multiple trim levels with the option of FWD and AWD is still better than just only having AWD and one trim level.

As far as adding 2.5L I5 and 3.0 V6 into the RLX line up, you can differentiate the performance level. The 2.5L option is probably too weak for a car that is almost 4000lb (people would be laughing at it that a Civic is just as fast). A RLX with 3.0 V6 that is good for 260hp, along with less features, would be appealing though if the starting price is in the low 40's. I don't think we will see much improvement in terms of EPA ratings - simply look at the 328i vs 335i, or G25 vs G37. The car is still heavy and so a smaller engine simply has to work harder to keep up. It also means VCM does not get to do its work as often (i.e. less time for 3-cyl mode).

neuronbob

I agree with this. Having FWD and AWD variants will broaden the appeal of the RLX. Even after the AWD variant is released, it is the FWD PAWS cars that will sell the most, and in dry climates. Unfortunately, the unwashed masses will think that SH-SH-AWD is just another Quattro variant for bad weather when it is actually a performance aid.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

Yea, just like the original SH-AWD system...not many people knew about it. Marketing will be very important. Somehow, they need to be able to let people know that it's a system that will improve traction, handling, power, and fuel economy.

getakey

I wish they had a better name for it than SH-SH-AWD.
To me, having torque vectoring is like going from a single engine boat to a twin engine.

iforyou

iTrader: (1)

lol yes SH-SH-AWD does not sound very good.....

037

what they need to prove is that having fancy AWD is actually improving handling, which means they need to push the car magazines to compare them against the competition and win. Beat them hands down.

That will give it the boost it needs, simply talking tech without backing it up without results is useless.

g37guy01

More than once and in varied scenarios, with facts, not opinions.

GoHawks

Guys, the 2nd gen RL finished first or second in many comparison tests when it first came out.

People still didn't get it.

It even beat out a 5 series.