benben01

Having owned F/I cars in the last few years, I want to explored the limits and the potential of our K24Z3 N/A motor with cams and possibly a head swap. Looking at the results from earlier K24 builds, 250+ HP and a 8,000 redline are pretty typical. Has anyone considered going this route vs. a CTE S/C. I am hoping the N/A would be significantly cheaper if the right parts are sourced.

tsxykid105

parts would not be any cheaper in the long run. cams are 600+ and then valves retainers springs run 300-500 then you hit a snag at the tuning area since you guys dont even have a reflash yet and k-pro isnt an option. and with cams youd get 20-40hp extra for $2500ish i wanted to do a 2.6 stroker in my 05 but couldnt justify the price at the time. im still waiting to do it with stage 2 cams and put down 280+hp if you just want cams then you need a tuning solution to handle the extra intake then exhaust to exhale the new found breath so 3000 now so not really when a s/c is 3500-4500. yould only put down 220-250 with cams and exhaust and a tune. id do a s/c

benben01

I hear ya... I was also entertaining the idea of dropping in a 3.7 if it bolts up to the 6spd tranny.

tsxykid105

im pretty sure it would bolt up but then thats when you should of gotton the v6. its alot cheaper and and 3.5 with bolts on would keep up with a 3.7 or beat it with the weight diff between the two. i like the 4cyl just for some reason its me but man when i see a tl next to me and go and it just takes off and the sound wow makes me want a v6 tsx.(tl is to big for me)

benben01

I would have gotten the V6 if it came in 6spd manual. Then again, I purchased the TSX for economic reasons as I was looking for a fun to drive luxury sports sedan that's cheap to maintain and operate.

HeavyDuty

These little K series motors are pretty stout, lots of meat in the block around the crank area, just like the J32 and J35.

I wonder about installing the 2.3 rotating assembly in the K24 and bolt on the 2.3 head that would accept the RDX turbo manifold.

tsxykid105

you could just buy a k24 turbo manifold. the only thing the 2.3 crank would do would lower compression and stroke so youd lose torque you could have with a stock k24 turbo. thered be a fair amount of space to fill from the top of the piston to the deck. and if im not mistaken the k23 head flows just as well or a tad worse then the k24. the k23 crank is worse then the k24 since its not as balanced as the k24s which is why it cant rev as high. and the k-series have 2 balancing shafts that spin 2 times faster then the crank to keep it balanced so in a k24 doing 7100rpm the shafts are at 14200rpm. hondata pushed the reflash prety close to the tolerance of both reflahses for the k23 and k24. even though some k24 rev to 8000. itd be easier to put a tubo on a stock tsx with a thicker head gasktet and some splicing of wires for engine managment.

HeavyDuty

I like OE stuff for certain items, which is why I'd want a K23 head to accept the manifold designed for the internally wastegated RDX turbo (or a tricked out direct replacement). Since we're just bench racing anyway, I'd have to assume the K23 rods and pistons would be forged for purpose built boost app? I'm not talking about building a street monster, stock boost or 20%-25% over stock with a nice top mount I/C, all stock looking under the hood of the CU2, and able to keep the K24 block to mate the 6MT.

Are the K24 rods & pistons hyperutectic or cast or forged or what?

tsxykid105

i see what your saying kinda it seems kind of pointless to me though. the k24's crank would have to stay and i think the pistons are forged on the 2nd gen so there strong enough to support boost. you could p&p the k23's head but i think on the k23 they didnt put the i-vtec on both sides, i think just on the intake side. the manifold isnt what is the wastegate the wastegate is inside the turbo that has a spring set at tension that releses at aa certain boost pressure. so like i said you would just need a turbo manifold for the k24 and still keep the rdx "waste gated" turbo. and trying to raise boost 20-25% isnt possible with out tuning or youll run way to lean and bang. not enought fuel on the top end and you cant fix that since theres no tuning option for the rdx yet.so a stock k24 with a turbo manifold and rdx turbo and a thicker headgasket to lower compression since the tsx is 11:1 then youd be fine and produce more power then the rdx since its a 2.4 vs 2.3 liter but theres still no tunong for the 2nd gen tsx.

HeavyDuty

You *know* the crank wouldn't work? Has someone tried it?

I, uh, understand the wastegate isn't part of the manifold, it's part of the turbine housing, with an external dash pot that opens the wastegate valve. I said "internally wastegated" as opposed to clarifying I don't want a divorced (external) one.

Again, since we're just bench racing anyway, the point was to replace the K24 head with the K23 to allow installation of the OE RDX setup, that's all. I've used quasimoto manifolds from some of the supposed "best" manufacturers & don't want any part of them on a DD, and I wouldn't run an external wastegate setup on a streetcar if someone gave it to me.

The RDX manifold won't bolt up to the K24 head, that was the whole point. Obviously with increased boost, you'd need tuning or some Mickey-Mouse additional injector setup like FMax used to sell and some way to manage the timing in the same manner a BTM would. No thanks.

tsxykid105

well if im not mistaken on turbos with internal wastegate theres nothing thats not on the turbo its self that opens the wastegate. the rdx does have a rescirulating blow off valve that is on the left side of the engine by the i/c. so the wastegate is inside the turbo and the k23 not on the manifold and crank wont work because of the stroke difference there would be a gap betwen the top of the piston on tdc and the deck of the block that wuold give a c/r of like 7:1 or less. and i said use a k24 turbo manifold and so you wouldnt have to do anything but bolt it up to the turbosince most turbos have the same plate. and i dont see why you wouldnt want a certain manifold on a car unless it doesnt let you keep something. ie: p/s or a/c if it lets me have it then idc what type of mani is on my car if it does its job well.

optimusaccord

Internally wastegated turbos can be manipulated with a manual boost controller. You just place it inline of the boost/vacuum reference point on the turbo to the wastegate.

tsxykid105

the stock turbo can only handle so much boost i think 16psi tops and you need tuning software to run more.

benben01

Approaching this topic from a different angle. The difference in a v6 TSX and a k24 model is ~$5k. My goal/budget is to keep it ~$5k mark and not go too over board. Whether we go with a high revving N/A set up or a F/I setup, I think the goal and limit to this drive train is ~300HP which is plenty enough without turning it into a money pit. I would like to see another S/C setup beside's CT-E's. Thoughts and comments?

HeavyDuty

It's all part of the assembly, once the actuator is installed, but you can't internally regulate a turbo that doesn't have an internal wastegate, you'd *have* to have an external one. Without an actuator, the wastegate door would be open all the time, the exhaust gasses would bypass the turbine and go out the door instead. No boost (or relatively no boost, very little.)



^Howstuffworks.com

This is a GT28RS (Disco Potato deisgned by Rob Cadle at Garrett specifically for the SR20) before it went on my 91 SE-R with the Pulsar GTi-R SR20. It shows the wastegate actuator "dash pot" & vacuum port. (The gold iridite colored round thing.) A vacuum line from the manifold post-throttle body goes in the port, once the desired boost is reached, it opens the door via the dash pot diaphragm.



Another view of the actuator attached to the wastegate door detent lever.



Here's a good pic of the wastegate door itself.




I said rotating assembly, not just the crank. It's possible you could end up with a Frankenstein, different crank, rods & or pistons to achieve the strength and desired C.R. Remember we're just postulating in print & that the OP sated below he wasn't looking for a dyno queen, but a reasonable 300hp option to a S/C.


Doing it's job well (or not) is exactly why I'm bench racing about the RDX setup. There's a lot of plumbing associated with a turbo setup, and I don't mean flexible tubing. There's the downpipe, (turbine outlet), air intake tube, oil feed/drain, compressor outlet, I/C, recirculation or blowoff stub, and don't forget ahelluvalot of heat on any app. The RDX packaging with the top mount I/C (IF it fits under the hood) has all that work already mostly done for you. The top mount has very little air plumbing to be redesigned, plus because it's a short distance between the compressor outlet and throttle body, boost response would be better than a front mount.

My whole point about *not* using a turbo that requires an external wastegate is that you add one more item worth of plumbing, and they take up more space in the engine compartment. Plus you have to weld the outlet stub into your downpipe. IMHO, on a streetcar, they suck.

PITA


OP, I sure hope you don't think I'm hijacking, I think it's a good idea where you're thinking & I believe I understand your mission, 300whp without *anything* that makes it a pain to drive everyday. You could go with a K24 turbo manifold (if you wanted a turbo) but IMHO, the associated BS that is part & parcel with the turbo is what eats you up in time (money). Tuning is *still* an issue at this juncture.

If you want a daily driver that doesn't spend its life at the shop, doesn't offer any less fuel efficiency or noise when not at WOT, change the oil, put gas in it and road trip it anywhere, get the CT-E S/C.

Even all-motor apps have issues with idling, tuning, etc. & yes, there is no tunable engine management for this thing at the moment.

I sure hope any of this helps, I'm just trying to impart what I've learned from doing it.

tsxykid, good thread.

benben01

Thanks Jack! The more I think about this, CT-E is S/C or something comparable is the way to go unless there is a tuning solution for our ECU. 300WHP is pushing the limits of reliability. If I can get 250ish WHP and matching torque, I will be more than happy.

T-jay

Im planing on doing a rotrex s/c when some one makes a decent tunable ecu for this thing. Was thinking of trying a apexi vtec controller. Their was a dude with one on a 2g rl so maybe it will work on the cu2?

PyroDave

i have no input on the actual discussion here cause i don't know shit about S/C or turbo's, but you can always send your ECU to russia, where nothing is legal and everything thats wrong comes out right, and then having tuning available =D

tsxykid105

heavy duty thank you lol that turbo is what i had in mind when i was speaking i was just saying instead of geting a new head and all that to just use the k24 head and get a manifold and you could gwet the vacum line installed simply to save cash but now i see where you were goin with using the k23 head o use the i/c and all the other stuffi didnt get that first. thanks for the fight haha ive never had a turbo car but help my friends with 300zx tt and a few volvos and itr's. im personaly an all motor guy but would do a s/c. and t-jay theres a guy who took a rsx-s s/c from jackson and put it on a 1st gen tsx just needed a different adaptor plate.and a v-vtec controller wont do anything but move the point at which "vtec" engages. it wont do anything for timing or fuel etc.

HeavyDuty

It's all good, these discussions are good for the advancement of the breed.

When someone figured out how to do the J35 short block in 2001(?) under the 3.2 TL & CL Type S heads, but wouldn't tell anyone how they did it, we sat down with HGPEC (Honda Genuine Parts Electronic Catalog) and my biz partner broke out the automotive math book and calculated it was the first gen MDX short block that was required.

But...we weren't dicks, we laid it all out for the collective benefit of the community. Who knows what these kinds of discussions could lead to?

PyroDave

like allowing our cars to use farts as nitrous, and we could just install a funnel inside the driver seat, and when you see a M3, you could just fart and BAM you win. =D or is that not what ya meant HD? ;P

HeavyDuty

if you can produce 30 degree farts, hook it up!

Oh wait, methane injection...hmmm.

TL-Swag

Since you are headstrong to go with FI ever consider going the route of nitrous. Easy to install, minimal setup 30-50 hp on tap and viola

Chivik777

https://acurazine.com/forums/2g-tsx-photograph-gallery-144/honda-accord-2011-project-euro-r-828623/

benben01

Thans Chivik! That K20A head you used... Is that same as our US Spec RSX Type-S?

Chivik777

On this car head from Accord Euro-R CL7

Endika

Could be the Type S or the regular head for some strange reason JDM motors never have the last number stamped on the block to differentiate between different models like the honda b18c it could be a gsr or a type r

Chivik777

CU2 2009 AT K24Z3/K20A2

tsxykid105

what about the ultimate engine for a tsx. ok a c32 engine and for those of you that dont know thats the nsx engine902 and up yrs) with a 67mm turbo running 27psi with a 3.5 stroker kit. of course a nice intercooler and straight pipes so when revving to 9000 we can have the whole world smiling. now little head work here and there and blueprinted engine and were good to go. mount it in the trunk of the tsx and bam a 4 door turbo TNSX. the T doesnt stand for turbo. thats my cup of tea to dream about.

TL-Swag

Hmm my ultimate engine would be a RA808E motor for those of you that don't know is a Honda F1 V8 powerhouse. It's only 2.4 liters as well so I think it would be a perfect fit !. Oh and I think they call them NSX-T, with the T for turbo at the end.

tsxykid105

ill take this anyday. i want this in my living room. there will be NO tv!!!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5OS_k0V8Bvw

HeavyDuty

Isn't "T" for Targa?

optimusaccord

That's correct, T is for Targa. It is sweet looking too.

spdandpwr

It'd be nice if we started a hondata flashpro petition thread. If enough of us asked for flashpro, Hondata would certainly develop one. Back when I owned a civic si, they started a thread like this on the civic forums for the automatic r18 (base civic engine) and hondata created a flashpro unit.

Together we can, lol!

optimusaccord

They just released for the 04-08, so hopefully we will get ours soon.

spdandpwr

they released it for the 2007-2008...to get it to work on the 04-06, you need some modding.

tsxykid105

nope 04-06 works to no modding

tsxykid105

ughhhhhh nvm god hondata cant get anything right with the 04-06 sorry i jumped the gun when they first said it was coming out they said 04+

spdandpwr

But, you can still get it to work. Just need a bit more time and effort.