phonic

Hey guys, I spent an hour today with my Real Time Analyzer setup in my 09 TSX Tech to see what was going on sonically from the driver's seat. I warn you this is pretty nerdy, but I thought it would be fun. I tried to be as accurate as possible. Here's what I found out:

Equipment used:
Audix TR40 Calibration mic placed at Head level in the drivers seat.
Apogee Duet Audio Interface
Macbook Pro Running Spectrafoo both as a 1/3 Octave RTA and transfer funcion comparing against standard pink noise.
Minirator Signal Generator sending Pink noise at 82dB

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Audio System Flat with the Engine off 1/3 Octave RTA:


Audio System Flat with RTA compared to source Pink Noise:


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Bass at +6 (Center Frequency seems to be around 80 Hertz) 1/3 Octave RTA:


Bass at +6 Compared to Pink Noise:


Bass at -6 1/3 Octave:


Bass at -6 Compared to Pink Noise:


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Treble at +6 (Center Frequency seems to be around 8-10 kHz) 1/3 Octave RTA:


Treble at +6 Compared to Pink Noise:


Treble at -6 1/3 Octave:


Treble at -6 Compared to Pink Noise:


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Sub at +6 (Center Frequency seems to be around 35 Hertz) 1/3 Octave RTA:


Sub at +6 Compared to Pink Noise:


Sub at -6 1/3 Octave:


Sub at -6 Compared to Pink Noise:


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To get the system as flat as possible I ended up dialing the Bass to -2 and the Sub to -2. That being said I enjoyed the system more at Bass -1 and Sub -1. I previously thought the top end was a little too bright and that's more than likely because of the bump at 8kHz which is never nice on your ears. Also, there seems to be a random bump up at 600 Hertz and its a little odd that Bass +6 and flat look so similar.

Lastly, for those curious. This is what the engine idling with no sound in the cabin looks like:

ctwickman

HUGE +REP for this post. Thank you thank you thank you!! This post should be made a sticky--very informative for audiophiles. It looks like the system is tuned specifically to overcome the engine sound as the engine idle looks almost to be the same graphic.

It's funny though, I've spent a lot of time tweaking my system to what I perceive to be the warmest sound possible, and I end up with Treble +1, Bass +1, and Sub +1.

It would be interesting to see you test this at separate volumes because I am 100% certain that the EQ is completely different at a volume of 10 versus a volume of 30 for instance.

phonic

Thanks,

I agree about the engine sound as well as the fact that most people hop in their cars and push the bass. There's also the fact that in any car when you're in motion, the bass can start to drop out.

I ran all the tests at 82-84 db (I had a decibel meter in the car) which is what listening to your system at a reasonable, but not too loud level would represent. I could see about doing it again in the future at 95dB which is much louder (especially when listening to pink noise). Usually if I'm mixing a live event I tend to calibrate the house or stage system around 85. Sound over 100dB will make most people wince in pain.

The interesting thing I just realized is that no matter what you do to tweak your system, you can't really touch 150 Hz - 4kHz. That is a HUGE gap! About 5 Octaves.

Cool to hear someone else's settings, I had my treble set to -2 before I did this because of that 8k bump.

kalmario

phonic, not nerdy at all!

LukeaTron

Pretty sweet data gathering. Now if only I understood what any of it meant...

Tigmd99

This week, i got to spend some time in a 2009 Acura TL with ELS. As i posted over on the TL forum, i found the system to be excellent. As you may know, i hate the ELS in the TSX because the sound for the rear passengers suck. All the sound is coming from the back of your head when you sit in the rear seat. The rear door speakers are barely audible...you have to put your ears to the door to even hear it! WTF is the function of the rear door speakers if it is barely audible?! It is not even loud enough to provide ambience!

The TL ELS system does not suffer from this problem. In fact, the rear door speakers (smaller than those in TSX) are quite pronounced...to maintain staging to the front of the rear passengers. When not in surround mode, the rear deck speakers are barely audible. This is how it should be done! BTW, the subwoofer was well controlled/isolated.

My question is...did Acura/ELS screw up with the speaker connections for the TSX ELS?? I wonder how hard is it to switch the connections for the deck speakers and rear door speakers around at the headunit (or amplifier)?? If this is done, then my guess is that the rear door speakers will play louder, while the rear deck speakers will be more subdued. This would make the system more balanced as well as improving staging for the rear passengers. If this can improve sound, then i may get a TSX ELS for myself in the future!

Phonic, BTW, when i tested the TSX ELS, i set everything to FLAT (zero). From your testing, it seems like i should have decrease the subwoofer and bass levels down a notch or two. This may have solved my complaint about the subwoofer vibrating the rear seatback.

BTW, great thread!!

cmasterchoe

Hey, awesome post man, I will fiddle with my sound systems now in 3...2...

ctwickman

Couple things:

1) An audiophile-grade car system should be primarily focused on front sound staging. In fact, the best setup you can possibly have is NO rear passenger speakers at all. In aftermarket audio you should spend all of your money on component fronts, ditch rear speakers altogether, and have the best subwoofer you can find in a sealed box, with as much power going to this setup as possible. Otherwise staging gets severely affected.

2) A good subwoofer SHOULD vibrate the rear seatback.

Tigmd99

That may be true, but modern car sound systems (high-end) can give you 5.1 surround sound from EVERY SEAT IN THE CAR, not just the front.

A good subwoofer and rear deck design will provide bass that you feel and hear omnidirectionally, but NOT felt directly in the seatback. Again, please refer to other high-end systems.

In fact, for easy point of reference, please listen to the TL's ELS system and you will see.

phonic

Very interesting thought about what is correct staging for the car. In a typical home system the sweet spot would be dead center and the 5 channels would produce an even SPL. In a car though its a little different since no one is really in the sweet spot. You'd think that the system would be adjusted so that the driver would be in the correct position.

Interesting to hear about the 09 TL's rear staging. I've spent very little time in my TSX's back seats and to be honest didn't even know I had those speakers in the doors until about 4 or 5 days after I got the car. My 05 TL only had 8 speakers.

As for vibrations on the back seat, Tig had mentioned this in another post. I think that the back of the seat vibrating is normal for most cars and I wouldn't consider it a flaw. I expect to feel a subwoofer and sympathetic vibrations on a Sub in the back deck is typical. Especially when the seats are one wall of the trunk which acts as the speaker's enclosure. The difference between the TL and the TSX is most likely due to the TSX having full folding seats while the TL I believe may only have a pass through in the arm rest (that was the case with my '05) and a baffle board across the back of the trunk.

Tigmd99

Phonic, you could have a point there...maybe the TL's rear seatback is structurally stronger/stiffer. This may explain why the sub is more "isolated" in that i do not feel the bass vibrations on my back.

That is one of the big puzzle about the TSX ELS system...why did Acura/ELS even bother to put speakers in the rear doors IF they were not planning to use it??? I don't get it. You can tell that Acura/ELS knew about this "problem" and corrected for the TL ELS system...in fact, in the TL's marketing stuff, Acura specifically mentioned the rear staging as being something they worked on. So, somehow someone at ELS was sleeping on the job when they programmed or adjusted the TSX system.

Now, for you single guys/gals or those with just significant other, i can understand your lack of care about the rear seats...but for me, i (or my wife) spend our time back there quite often (with our kid).

ctwickman

I agree with your first point, but at that level you ARE sacrificing front driver and passenger sound staging. In my view that is the most important part. The "best" setup would be to disconnect the rear speakers altogether IF you are focused on the most accurate setup for front driver and passenger.

Like I said with the subwoofer, a lot of people want to hear and feel the sub. The "best" sub design would be a completely sealed unit in the trunk as far forward in the cabin as possible with the woofer directed at the back, as bass has very long sound waves and you will miss much of it otherwise. In the "best" aftermarket setup you have no choice but to have the rear seatback shake. If you read about ELS's thinking for the TSX system, the subwoofer is actually purposely designed to shake the rear seatback at a frequency specifically resonant with the woofer, which is an ingenious design.

I don't want to seem like I'm getting into an argument here but I've been designing high end car systems for decades now and I can assure you everything I'm telling you is from exhaustive research which, to be frank, I just feel too old to do anymore these days. The TSX system stays as is--it is the first stock system I've heard that actually has some though put in for accurate front driver/passenger staging. I agree with you that it doesn't sound very good for passengers sitting in the back but that is OK with me as I never have any unless its my parents or friends in their 30's who don't want to listen to anything cranked up anyways. It would be interesting to hear the TL stereo. How does it sound for the front driver? Any different?

ctwickman

Like I said, the most accurate setup is the one we have.... for front driver and passenger that is. I have little doubt that someone like Elliott Sheiner, if given the opportunity to properly tune a system to his liking, would have tuned the rear speakers for only minor ambience as this is the most accurate setup you can have for front staging. In fact the most accurate audiophile setup would be to disable the rear speakers altogether, but I'm sure Acura insisted on having some sound for rear passengers. There is little doubt in my mind that Mr. Sheiner tuned the system for accuracy and audio fidelity and focused his intention on the front passengers as any audio tuner would, I'm sure that is where he sat while he tuned. Then people started complaining that it didn't sound very good when they sat in the rear, and now with the TL Acura compromised the front staging to appease these complaints. You can't have it all. You either have the most accurate setup possible for the fronts by having NO rear speakers, or you compromise this by having a separate "front" stage in the back for rear passengers that interferes with the true front stage for the driver. I have no doubt Acura insisted on better staging for REAR passengers after possibly some owner complaints that we see in this thread and in the end we have a compromised system in the TL for the front stage now, at least from an audiophile/tuner perspective.

ctwickman

But I completely understand what you guys are getting at if you are that concerned about rear passenger audio. Many people are comfortable compromising the front stage so they can have two stages. In fact I remember the old stock systems would have much of their audio coming from the back which even that some people can "get used to." Me? As an audiophile I care only about me and whoever is sitting next to me.

xenonhid

Excellent Data analysis!

09TSXMN

If I have people in the back seat, I turn the stereo way down because we do something called "talking". Great info on the analysis.

Tigmd99

ctwickman, i understand what you're saying. However, you do need to go out and test out some of the systems in the highend cars. Most highend systems now has 7.1 surround sound architecture so that every passenger has 5.1 surround sound. That includes the driver, front passenger, and the rear passengers. I highly encourage you to test out a Mark Levinson sound system in the Lexus cars...and if you really want to be WOWed, check out the Mark Levinson REFERENCE system in the highend Lexus. Or, if you want, then check out the TL ELS system BEFORE commenting back to me. (I am not trying to be rude, but i am just pointing out how a good ELS vs. a bad ELS sounds.) As stated above, the TL ELS is very nice. It actually sounds better in the front seats than the TSX ELS...the stage is wider for the front passengers. In fact, the previous TL ELS system sounded better for the front passengers than the current TSX ELS system.

As for the subwoofer, again, i encourage you to explore other systems before commenting on what i wrote. It will surprise you! You bring up the point about home theater setup a few posts back. My subwoofer in my theater (ML Depth i) produces bass that i can hear and feel, but does not vibrate the room. That is good bass...and a good room design.

The TL ELS system is like that...yeah, you can feel the bass in the front and back seat...but at the same time, you don't feel the bass vibrating the back deck nor the seatback...certainly not as pronounced (and bothersome) as the TSX ELS. Where did you read that ELS specifically wanted this????? Link?

Now, if you want to check out a "cheaper" system, then testdrive a Toyota Avalon with the JBL system. That system has 7.1 surround sound architecture. I think that it has a 10" sub. The sound is better than the TSX ELS, but falls a bit short of the TL ELS. And the sound is good for everyone. No one must be sacrificed for another.

Yes, in the old days of car audio (i was into it a while back), you have to sacrifice some sound for the rear passenger for the front folks. However, with today's surround sound technology (fuzzy logic, phase manipulation, etc.) and the fact that these systems are designed WITH the car, not as an after-thought, EVERYONE should get good staging and imaging. Now, granted, most of the time, the driver gets the best sound. However, the other passengers also get almost as good staging and imaging.

Have you noticed why high end systems use 7.1 surround sound design (Mark Levinson, Harman Kardon, BOSE, certain JBL, etc.) vs. Acura/ELS 5.1?? It is because 7.1 is a better solution to everyone when using a 2-channel source (CDs as opposed to DVD-A). 7.1 surround sound through a 2-channel sounce can provide near equal sound stage/imaging for everyone because everyone gets their own 5.1 surround sound bubble.

Tigmd99

Nice and all, but why did Mr. Sheiner change his tune for the TL system?? If you read TL's ELS system description, then you will see that Mr. Sheiner did insist on true surround sound capability for EVERYONE.

And as noted above, i actually thought that the soundstage and imaging was better than the TSX ELS for the driver...no sacrifice there.

And yes, you can have it all...just go listen to the systems listed above. I just need you to be more open-minded that there are indeed better system design than what is in your TSX.

Tigmd99

see: http://marklevinsonlexus.com/overview.asp?model=ls

Not just the superduper LS system, but all Mark Levinson (and Harman Kardon) now uses 7.1 architecture to provide discrete 5.1 surround sound.

This is what Lexus/ML has to say:
"Discrete 5.1 playback in a 7.1 Channel Surround
Sound Speaker Architecture – Separate full range side and surround channels provide an extraordinary sense of envelopment and depth for all passengers. In particular, rear seat passengers do not experience sound only from behind, as with other automotive 5.1 surround systems.

Mark Levinson Surround (MLS) Audio Software
Intelligently creates a large sonic “sweetspot”, positions “phantom” centers in the middle of the instrument panel where they were intended, and provides the full discrete 5.1 surround sound experience to the rear seat passengers. MLS also provides a surround sound experience for stereo source material such as CD and FM broadcast."

Tigmd99

Link: http://news.infibeam.com/blog/news/2...nd_system.html

Quote:

"Two 17-cm SDR drivers are mounted in the front doors, and two in the vehicle rear tray. The two 8-cm drivers have been added to the rear doors, and a single driver is located in the center of the instrument panel. These rear door additions provide improved front imaging for rear seat passengers, as well as enhancing the front seat listening experience, with highly accurate sound quality and no excessive bass.

A new Super Low Distortion Driver (SLDD) subwoofer has been integrated and tuned with the structure of the rear package shelf to optimize the interaction of the speaker with the vehicle. It allows the system to obtain extended low frequency response -- a deep, powerful bass down to 20Hz -- yet minimizing spurious vibration and rattle."

Hmmm, it seems like someone has made a system that corrected most (if not all) of my complaints! Guess what? The TL ELS was designed AFTER the TSX ELS system...and has clearly addressed the TSX ELS system's weaknesses.

Of note, the TL ELS now uses titanium tweeters. Could it be that the soft dome tweeters in the TSX ELS system are problematic (blowing as many owners have complained about!) and the fact that it does not provide LINEAR frequency response (as noted above)???!!

ctwickman

From my experience owning both of the best soft dome (Dynaudio) and titanium (MB Quart QSD) tweeters the aftermarket had to offer, I will take the smootheness of soft dome any day of the week over the harshness of titanium. Titanium sounds "better" for about 10 minutes until your ears fatigue IMO.

ctwickman

All those specifications and speaker locations are exactly the same as we have with the TSX, minus the titanium tweets. Knowing Acura and how they standardize everything I have little doubt the system is exactly the same as ours, though you would think it would be better given the TL runs about $10K more. Hey if you want better "staging" for the rear passengers just set the crossfader more to the rear.

ctwickman

Oops I guess the speaker specifications between the TL and TSX are not "exactly" the same. It appears the differences are titanium versus soft dome tweets in the front, and the TSX has 9cm larger speakers than the TL in the rear doors (TSX has 17cm speakers in the rear doors, TL has 8cm). Otherwise the setup is exactly the same as far as I can read on paper.

Tigmd99

ctwickman,

I agree with you about soft vs. metal tweeters. I prefer soft dome as well, but maybe things have changed?? I don't know. As noted above, the TSX ELS soft-dome tweeters are pitchy and harsh as well. I could NOT detect any harshness in the TL system...even after playing songs that would bring out harshness in other systems.

The speaker locations are indeed similar, but not exactly alike. Yes, the TSX rear door speakers are bigger, but they are low in the door. The TL rear speakers are smaller but they are located high in the door. And for proper imaging/staging in the rear, you really do NOT need big speakers in the rear doors...a midbass/midrange is more than enough, which is what the TL has. Again, i encourage you to visit your Acura dealer.

I am also certain that the calibration/programming of the ELS is quite different between TSX and TL system. And for my ears, the TL ELS is definitely better than TSX ELS by a significant margin.

To improve sound for the rear passengers, setting the fader to the rear is the WORST thing that you can do! The problem is NOT the sound quality in the rear...it is the staging and imaging. If you fade to the rear, then this only further messes up the staging...do YOU listen to a concert with your back turned to the stage??? I don't.

And if you fade the sound to the front in the TSX ELS, then all you hear is bass. The rear door speakers in the TSX ELS is pretty much mute whether you fade to the front or rear. Thus, my contention that the rear door speakers in the TSX ELS are absolutely positively useless. Would you agree???

You know about car audio and you have the ELS system...what do you make of the rear door speakers in your TSX ELS system?? Why is it there? For ambience, the rear deck speakers are more than enough for the front passengers (as is the case in the base TSX system). Why add rear door speakers if you're not gonna use it?? Is Acura trying to make the TSX look good by having 10 speakers in the car instead of 8...to further differentiate it from the "base" system??

I wonder if the amplifier layout is truly different between the TL and TSX?? Yes, on paper, they have similar specs, but i wonder...are the part number the same??

ctwickman

I would hope so seeing the TL is $10K more.

Definitely disagree there. I trialed that yesterday and all that did was get rid of the bass for me.

I'd have to sit in the back and find out. As it is the system sounds amazing in the front where I sit 100% of the time and I agree with the principle that rear speakers should only be used for ambience. I have my doubts that a company like Acura which is known for standardization and cost cutting would support the cost of totally "useless" speakers.

The amp must be different because according to the white paper the TL has 440 watts versus the TSX 415 watts.

Tigmd99

What i meant was that, when you sit in the rear and fade the music to the front, all you hear is the bass. I had hoped that by fading the music towards the front, the rear door speakers would get louder, but that was not the case.

Useless? Nah, maybe Acura is in a race for "speaker count"?? These speakers are cheap for Acura/Panasonic...and Acura is making a butt load of profit from charging $3000-4000 premium for the TECH pkg. Would customers be happy to have the high-end ELS system, yet have the same speaker count as the base stereo system?? Nope. I wonder if the ELS amplifier even have true separate channels for the rear door speakers! It sure does not sound like it.

So, tell me, you claim to be the car audio expert here...what is the purpose of the rear door speakers?? And, as you stated above, you have not even sat in the rear seat...yet, you're arguing with me about proper staging and imaging for the rear seat???!!

ctwickman

It seems like you are attempting to "win" an argument that really isn't there, so consider this my last post. Like I said several times, I don't care about audio for rear passengers so no I haven't tested the rear staging and probably never will. It doesn't change the laws of physics however that rear staging will always interfere with front staging in an enclosed environment such as an automobile. The sole purpose of an audiophile grade aftermarket system for you and your passenger should not include rear speakers at all in fact, or use them only for ambience. There is a reason the best amplifiers from JL have rear ambience switches on them in order to convert the rear to mono and to halve their volume, it is because it interferes with front staging and true audiophiles know this. To answer your question I don't know the "purpose" of the rear speakers I did not design the system--perhaps they are used as a woofer in a larger sealed enclosure which is each door, further adding depth to the bass and taking some strain off of the subwoofer itself which is only 8 inches, which is quite small. Who knows.

Tigmd99

You're right...there has never been an argument because you have not sat in the rear of your own car...nor have you heard other systems. My mistake.

ctwickman

No there was never an argument because I already told you I don't care about rear staging in the first place. Why do I want to sit in the back seat again?

Tigmd99

Again implies that you have already....

It was a fun discussion.

phonic

Can we change gears on this? I was curious what settings people had their systems set to? Mine is currently Bass -1 and Sub -1 Treble 0.

soon4tsx

First note that the below Bass & Treble for every radio station that XM retransmits has different Volume, Bass & Treble.

For the two XM stations I listen to: Bass= +1, Treble= -4, Subwoofer = -4

However these setting stay the same regardless input source: Fader= R3, Balance= L1, Center= -1

Since I'm the only one in the car, the above settings are optimized for the Driver's Position only.

To each his own.

NVR2OLD

Mine is high, I know, above + 1 on all accounts. And what are they supposed to be sub -1, base -1, treble ?. I will check it tonight before I leave for home, and re-try the new live Zombie.

I guess what i'm saying is...... It sounds great to me but how do I make it louder?

phonic

To be theoretically flat you'd want your Bass and Sub at -2. Flat however isn't necessarily the best. I ended up pulling my Bass and Sub back to -1 so that I still had some bottom end, but for me it made the midrange much clearer. Before I ran all this I had Bass and Sub at 0 and Treble at -2.

ctwickman

One thing I noticed is it seems to sound a lot better with a Treble of +1. It seems to give the music more of a live presence.