SSFTSX

6 cylinder is gone for 2010. replaced by S4. 4 cylinder A4 is comparable to V6 TSX in performance.

katmai

After all that well... once again the A4 is a nice car, and depending on how much you spend (+$50k), it can be really nice. However its not comparable at the 4 cyl price. The A4 ends up being 15% more $$$ for similar equipment.

4 cyl TSX tech 33k
A4 Premium Plus/nav 38k

The op didn't really specify if cost was an issue, although I would guess it is if they're asking about the 4cyl TSX. The main issue for me (and most things german) is the reliablity. Too large a percentage of people I know with german cars have more problems than I would want to deal with. My budget didn't allow me to spend upwards of 40k, so I wouldn't be able to buy the A4 even if I wanted to.

SSFTSX

You have too look at this way.

$5K extra give you much more car. 6 cylinder performance on 4 cylinder economy. Not even HS250hybrid can do it.
No timing belt maintanance. fixed 5 year maintianance package. better brakes. larger boot, LED lights for 2010 model premium plus.





Sales of A4 are much higher per month since 2009 than TL/TSX but very few in used car lots with very high prices. so ur saving on depreciation against unknown maintainance cost in year 6 and beyond.

Colin

^

bagbklyn

I think one of the main point people are missing is that many people lease the A4 while many people purchase the TSX. Just from looking at the thread many on here look as if they purchased the TSX. IF you go over to an audi forum or BMW forum you will see that many of the cars are leased I think much more then Acura. Hence why people can't see someone paying close to 40k for something they can get for much less. Many A4 owners are leasing their vehicles. Walk into an audi dealership and ask and i'm pretty sure they will tell you that most of the cars sold has been leases.

Just my 2 cents

SSFTSX

It does not matter whether it is lease or buy. Whole point is total cost of ownership. and that includes depreciation/maintainance packages/tire road hazard protection/brakes/buyer loyalty discounts/upgrade package like Audi offers $1500 sports suspenion/19inch rims upgrade/sport seats for those dont want to spend on navigation/AWD or FWD. It is giving choice to consumers.

And looking at some of the lease deals. most of A4 are in between $400 to $550. while TSX is $300 to $400. so the car is atmost $3600 to $4500 more expensive spread over 3 years depending on options
The only way TSX reliability will be beneficial over long term is if u keep the car for 10 years but in that case u have to spend money on 3 sets of tires/ maintainance upto 100k miles/Acura care extended warranty to minimize costs/ and above all depreciation. Any 10 year old TSX or any other car will be $4 to $5K at most as once car pass 100k miles it is very difficult to trade in as bank dont finance it for next buyer and cannot be CPO for the dealer. so u have to sell it for cash. So the best option is to keep the car for maximum of 7 years and under 100K miles. so atleast $10 to $12k can be given on trade in. instead of going all the way to 0 to $5K in range. and i believe Audi is cost competitive for 7 years life. Honda engines are good for 200K miles but 100k is big mark interms of Market value so it is better not to cross it.

thisaznboi88

iTrader: (7)

I like both cars but I like the way the new TSX look. Kinda has the wide body affect and with a powerful v6. Its game on

katmai

Personally I don't need $5k more car. Thats why I bought a 4 cyl TSX. I think you're trying to argue the A4 is better, and I'm not necessarily disagreeing, but on the point that it costs more to get more. For someone not willing to spend more $$$, you aren't going to get more. Thats all I'm saying.

In terms of investment over the long term, you don't invest in cars. Its a loss from the time you buy or lease it. I usually plan to keep a car until it dies or close to it, at which point I don't care how much I get for it. Generally by then you're willing to pay someone to take it off your hands! lol I think you're trying to argue a lot of hypotheticals which may or may not be true for everyone. I'm not arguing with you on your thoughts, but they just don't fit my personal situation. For me the TSX is a much smarter decision, even if some might think the A4 is "better".

SSFTSX

I am not arguing that one is better than other. I am simply stating that Audi badge is not overpriced depending on the content of the car and is not that much expensive in long term tests.
Cars are not investment. but is better to minimize depreciation/maintainance losses. newer cars brings new warranty/maintiance packages and convenience of new technology/power/new transmission like DSG will soon be common in couple of years.

katmai

Exactly. A good value. Getting the most for your money. Personally I do believe Audi is overpriced. As well as Mercedes and BMW. I think thats partly why everyone leases them. But if you're really truly trying to get the "best deal" overall as you say, I still think the TSX is a better buy than any Audi. $38k for a similar car is not as good a buy when I can get just about as good for $5k less...thats 15%...unless of course you really don't care about value, and are just getting what you want. I hope we all realize that an Acura TSX in this country is a Honda Accord in every other. lol And you're comparing an Audi to an Accord. Why didn't you buy an Audi?

GrigioX

Cuz the wife wouldn't let me have 2 Audi's in the garage.

SirBubb

I'm a new TSX owner coming off of 8 years in an 2001 A-4. For what its worth, my A-4 looked great, was fun to drive and was reliable for the first 60k miles. I intended to drive it until it was dead but then problems started rearing its ugly head. Over the last 4 years & 70k miles, I put in over $9k in repairs. Finally had enough and traded it in. I looked at the '09 A-4 and was impressed but found it roughly comparable to the TSX. Since the TSX was cheaper, got better gas mileage (my round trip commute is 70 miles/daily) and had a better warranty, I chose the TSX. If I had leased and was planning to dump the car after the 3 years, I might have gone for the A-4 again but since I want to own this car for many years, the reliability of Acura/Honda was just too much to ignore.

katmai

I would trade wives! hahaha

JD23

In the past, Audi has had very poor residual values, so anticipated depreciation is certainly not in favor of the A4.

SSFTSX

$9k includes every thing like tire/brakes/tuning/A/C. Even 2003 TSX has A/C problems. New Audi has maintianance and warranty packages and are more reliable.
from your post it seems ur driving like 18k to 20k miles a year. u will need brake job every year for TSX alone. that alone is worth $4 to $5k life time.
and how was the trading value based on ur original purchase price?. I admitt. Audi will be $3 to $4k expensive over 8 to 10 years but you get get more powerful car with quattor/turbo.

GrigioX

She is my sanity check. I wouldn't trade her for the world. Had it not been for her, I'd be driving an Audi S5 right now and regretting the payment

SirBubb

The $9k in repairs does NOT include what I would consider to be routine maintenance (brakes, tires, oil changes, etc.). My litany of issues included among other things: new alternator, four new ignition coils, timing belt, three wheel bearings & more tie rods than I care to remember. I broke down 3 times in the last 4 months I owned the car, once in the middle of Boston rush hour traffic, which is what spurred me to sell it. I did get a reasonable amount of money for the trade of a car with 130,000 miles ($4500), although it still looked sharp and, despite the problems, it was in good shape. I did love the AWD quattro, especially in New England winters, but the turbo lag always left me disappointed. Despite that, I'd probably still be driving the A-4 if I could have just trusted it. Alas, like a lot of relationships, once the trust is gone, no matter how hard you try you just can't get it back....

katmai

eeeeekk

katmai

Maintenance and warranty packages make you feel good, but they don't make the car more reliable. And really I won't care how good of a warranty package I have if the car leaves me stranded in traffic. More reliable (if thats even the case) is still not that great, considering where Audi is coming from. Its all relative.

I don't know anyone who spends $4k-$5k on brake jobs for ANY car. The tsx does have weak rear pads, and maybe even rotors if you really want to push the argument, but it'd be silly to keep replacing it with the same crummy parts. Just go aftermarket and get something much better and cheaper. That seems to solve everyone's problem. I don't think I've ever bought OEM brake parts as a replacement for any car I've had. Brake wear, although annoying, is not something thats going to leave me stranded.

SSFTSX

u mention timing belt. the new dont have one. and it is generally not good idea to make car pass 100k miles. If u trade it at less than 100k miles. u wont not have that expensive repairs and would have got $9k to $10k on new trade. in addition to that $1 to $5K off on under Audi loyalty program.
u clinge to outdated car for far too long. Audi is not Acura where same technology is for 10 years. u can see 5 years total cost of ownership.

http://www.edmunds.com/new/2009/acur...2&setzip=94080

katmai

In his scenario his car is paid off. In your scenario he's gonna have at least 3-5 more years of payments. I can't see how that could come out cheaper, even with no problems.

SSFTSX

what good comes out of car paying off. First we are in low interest environment where future worth of money is depreciating due to inflation. It is better to loan it by at 3 to 4% than putting all the money in the car. $26k in 2001 is far more worth than $26+$5k (assuming $5k of interest) over 7 year period. assuming the person trade in the car at 60k mile (the point his repair problem started). he could have saved $9k in repairs & $9k on deprecaition and would be enjoying newer car 4 years earlier rather than dealing with old junk. Cars are like computer but little longer life. and by now he would be ready to change into 2010 A4 and getting loyalty credit for repeat Audi buyer.

katmai

Let's compare two scenarios over 10 years. Keeping an A4 for 10 years or trading up to a new similar car after 5 years. To keep things relatively simple, I'll assume a 5 year loan at 5% interest, no documentation fees or other add ons (like warranties):

TSX
$33,000 x 6.75% sales tax = $35,227.50
$35,227.50 over 5 years at 5% = $664.79/mo
OR $39,887.18 total with interest

A4 #1
$38,000 x 6.75% sales tax = $40,565
$40,565 over 5 years at 5% = $765.51/mo
OR $45,930.70 total with interest

Both cars will be paid off in 5 years. Assuming we keep both cars til they're paid off, the A4 will cost $6,043.52 more. That's at least $1,200 per year more! Now lets look at it if we trade in the A4 after year 6 for a new identical priced car. We'll use your most optimistic numbers (even though I think they're very overly optimistic):

A4 #2 with trade applied at year 6 @ $10,000 and 100k mi(16,250 mi/yr based on 130k mi over 8 years)
$38,000 - $10,000 trade = $28,000 cash price
$28,000 - $5,000 owner loyalty = $23,000
$23,000 x 6.75% sales tax = $24,552.50
$24,552.50 over 5 years at 5% = $463.34/mo
OR $27,800 total with tax and interest

SO, the first A4 cost you $45,930.70. You had one year of reprieve from payments until year 6 when you traded for a new A4. Taking off one year of payments (463.34 x 12 mo = $5,560.08) to stay within the 10 year time frame, #2 will cost you (27800 - 5560.08) $22,239.92 for the four remaining years of our example - for a grand total of:

$45,930.70 + $22,239.92 = $68,170.62 over 10 years
or $73,730.70 !!! if we add the remaining year

Now lets keep A4 #1 for 10 years:
$45,930.70 + $9,000 in repairs = $54,930.70 <-still cheaper than trading

Now the TSX with bad brakes for 10 years:
$39.887.18 +$5,000 brake repairs = $44,887.18

$68,170 ($73,730)......$54,930.....$44,887
So which is cheaper? This doesn't even take into account the remaining $5,560.08 of payments on year 11, the higher insurance costs for the A4 over the TSX for that time, the increase in insurance costs when you buy the NEW car, repairs costs for all scenarios, etc etc. The A4 is looking less and less attractive. And this is using YOUR extremely optimistic numbers. The math just doesn't work out no matter how you cut it. So, either you just want the car and have money to waste (which is totally cool...wish I did!), or you don't know how to do the math.

About loaning out the money at 3-4%. Do you have the $74k to loan out? I don't. And I have a feeling no one else does either. If I did then I'd pay cash for the car instead. I'm too lazy to go to the trouble of loaning it out. Putting it in savings, maybe...but if my interest is higher for the car, then its better to pay it off. Not keep it. And if you have other debts, well thats a completely different story. Inflation? Well that means the A4 #2 won't cost $38,000 sticker. It'll be $41,000 sticker. Your math doesn't work.

I have a feeling you've never kept a car for 10 years.

SSFTSX

ur secanrios need tweaking. I will put TSX for 10 above 120K mile life. Audi 5 year 60K life.
A4 #2 with trade applied at year 6 @ $10,000 and 100k mi(16,250 mi/yr based on 130k mi over 8 years)
$38,000 - $10,000 trade = $28,000 cash price
$28,000 - $5,000 owner loyalty = $23,000
$23,000 x 6.75% sales tax = $24,552.50
$24,552.50 over 5 years at 5% = $463.34/mo
OR $27,800 total with tax and interest


SO, the first A4 cost you $45,930.70. You had one year of reprieve from payments until year 6 when you traded for a new A4. Taking off one year of payments (463.34 x 12 mo = $5,560.08) to stay within the 10 year time frame, #2 will cost you (27800 - 5560.08) $22,239.92 for the four remaining years of our example - for a grand total of:

$45,930.70 + $22,239.92 = $68,170.62 over 10 years
or $73,730.70 !!! if we add the remaining year

Now lets keep A4 #1 for 10 years:
$45,930.70 + $9,000 in repairs = $54,930.70 <-still cheaper than trading[/quote]
you forgett to include new 4 year warranty, new tires, brakes, maintaianance package, fuel economy for new Car. This things area alone worth $4 to $5K over 4 year period..
ur calculation are wrong. first TSX after 10 years will be less than $5K. and you will dumping money into old car to run it withou warranty. what will happen if A/C or Navigation system/transmission blows out? where is the convenience without them. cars more complicated and new electronics. It is pretty expensive to live it beyond 6 or 7 year period. why u will take such risk?
Fact of matter is $45K (price include finance everything) Audi will be worth $22K at 4 year period.
$39K TSX will be woth $17K at 4 year period.
At year 5 person has a choice to buy extended warranty for another 3years, new tires, brake maintiance. these things cost $3K combined at minimum. So you start at $20K TSX fresh in year 5 (year is 2013 beginning).
Now u you buy new Audi for $33K FWD (assuming loyalty discount). And since it is new Assume it has either 7 Speed DSG (already in EU) or even new 1.6TFSI for same performance. for 32mpg economy atleast. ( Always look into the future). i am very conservative in fuel economy.
16k miles a year. ur ussing 500 gallons of fuel for A4.
16K miles a year. ur ussing 640 gallons of fuel per year. assuming each gallon of fuel in at $4 at that point. here ur saving $600 bucks a year on fuel.
so for next 4 years again. Audi depreciated from $45k to $22K. u lose $23K.
but TSX depreciated from $20K to $5K. deduct fuel savings. TSX is at $3K at most. So u lose $23k on Audi but $17K on TSX. but your Audi is newer car by 4 years and u can always trade it in or extend its warranty. ur TSX is outdated and out of warranty. u will be always in risk of expensive repairs. Is that $5 or $6K worth the extra money over 10 year period with all that risk associated with Old car.

katmai

HAHAHA I formally bow out. I was bored so this was amusing to say the least. I have absolutely NO IDEA what SSFTSX is saying or how that math works! LOL I think my math is pretty clearly laid out, pretty conservative, and as realistic as you can get looking into the future.

I bought the TSX with the idea that it will last 10 years just fine with regular maintanence based on past Honda reliablity and my driving habits. Audi has historically been who knows, hence why you should probably buy additional warranties if you get one. I have never bought a new car with any additional warranty in the past, mainly because brand/model reliability is a huge factor in my decision making. I've spent enough times back and forth in a shop to know that an unreliable care REALLY diminishes its emotional value to me. I have never had any major problems that made me regret I didn't purchase some additional warranty.

I hope the OP takes into consideration not just how much "nicer" the A4 might be (although costing $5000 more similarly equipped), but how much more trust I think most of us have in a Honda product. This is actually my first Honda product. I usually dislike Honda's in general, but this car really won me over...hence why I now have one.

And if you want a new car THAT often...lease it!

I still don't understand why SSFTSX has a TSX if the A4 is a better buy??

:surrender

SSFTSX

Offcourse you can keep driving TSX for next 10 years while ignoring 35mpg fuel standards. thats not to say that China has become world largest auto market. while India/Russia/Brazil/Middleast is not far behind. Gas is $3 bucks a gallong despiet depression in developed world. Once expansion continues expect very different kind of gas prices.
u will miss all new technologies that are coming in next 4 to 5 years. and i am not expecting you are going spend money on updating navigation disk.

http://www.autoblog.com/2009/06/08/t...e-less-weight/

Also u have used pretty high interest rate of 5%. new cars are now around 3%.

Cars are not similarly equiped for $5K extra. once is direct ignition turbo car while the other is not. A4 is as quick as V6 TSX. and for 2010 there is new HDD navigatio system.

Colin

If you're really bored, take a look here:
https://acurazine.com/forums/showthr...=700260&page=3
It's good reading from about post #85 on. Your little buddy has a lot of interesting things to say...

katmai

LOL I know...I've been reading the forums for a while now. My sister argues with me the same way. Just randomness after randomness...grabbing pockets of air trying to counter anything reasonable you say. I just thought it would be entertaining to interject this time instead of sitting on the sidelines! I just didn't want to waste anymore of the OPs thread space. wheeeeee

katmai

I used 5% for the average person, which in 10 years is probably pretty optimistic as well. I got 2% for my car. I didn't expect everyone else to be able to do the same. :-D

einsatz

This thread stopped making sense a while back.
I've got an 04 TSX and I've been looking at the A4... I don't see the new A4 as being in the same class as my TSX. You get one for value, and you get the other for comfort.

IMO you can't compare a loaded A4 prestige with something like a Subaru GT. If you're paying 45k for the A4 at that point, your priorities are things other than things like horsepower and 0-60 numbers. Different people value different things.

GrigioX

Luchin

Heavy Duty made a good point. If you love something or someone enough you are willing to overlook the shortcomings. aka. Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder.

Like many people here have said, it depends what you are looking for. If you want to go bush bashing you might think twice about taking your Q5 but a Lada Niva would fit the bill very nicely.

My wife's grandfather who opened the first Benz dealership in Vancouver many moons ago said this: Mercedes, Audi, and BMW's are great cars to lease. His reasoning was reliability. Don't get me wrong. If I won the lottery I would have one or two of each in my garage.

My wife and I purchased the TSX's based on reliability, bang for buck etc. She was even pushing me to get a BMW because she knows how much I like the look of them. Again, reliability and cost pushed me to the Japanese market.

Opinions are great but at the end of the day only you can decide.

If and when Acura offers the TSX with SH AWD, auto or 6MT, it will be in my garage. If not, an MDX will take the place of one of our TSX's.

I want a car that will be in my driveway more then in the shop.

What do you want from your car?

katmai

I totally agree with all those thoughts. Thats also why I have a TSX. I was just having fun earlier for sure, but to say its financially better to buy two Audis over a TSX and wonder why I'd let myself not be covered under some kind of warranty the whole time I own a car...that seems a little hoaky to me!

I like Audi and the german makes in terms of exterior styling. Interiors aren't my favorite, but the prices they charge and their reliablity...I always thought that if german engineering was so good, why do they break all the time?? My thinking is if the engineering is so good, then you can also engineer it to be reliable. The Japanese obviously have. I don't think I ever said don't buy an A4. I didn't even say I didn't like it or that it was a bad car. I think I was just saying know what you're getting into if you buy one. Having a car in the shop really does suck, warranty or not!

SSFTSX

Audi is going very credit worthy people hardly any in use market. and person getting 2% from Acura is most likely getting 2% from Audi. so the audience is pretty much the same. 2009 Audi have the best resale and reliability. let do the math again.

$45 K for A4 premium Plus
$39K for TSX tech 4cylinder.
let buy $740 prepackage maintiance for Audi 5 years. It will cost $3K over 4 years for TSX maintiance with all those B12/A12 services. so so the gap is atleast $2K less.
So the difference over 4 years is $4K. Now if u trade Audi for $20K after 4years. u get that $20K equity in new Car. So ur burden is $23K. assuming $2 loyalty discount. while TSX is continously depreciating below $20K all the way into single digits in year 9 & 10. and you dont have warranty nor prepackage maintiance, buying new set of tires. u r putting money in bottom less pit after 100k miles. 4 years old cars alway can be CPO/bankfinanced and is usefull for the dealer. 10 year old u can only use cash for clunker. New technology is also good for fuel economy/updated navigation/real time traffic subscripition, first oil change free etc.

SSFTSX

Look at long term reliability at road&track.
Acura is squeezing money on maintiance and brakes.

http://www.roadandtrack.com/article....rticle_id=5529
Since its introduction in early 2005 and its delivery to us in November of that year, the questions regarding the stoutness of the 2.0-liter turbocharged inline-4 or the integrity of the super-slick twin-clutch DSG transmission (now called S tronic) have been answered. Yes, we love it! No, we haven't broken it. Never in our 50,000-mile test drive did we encounter so much as a single mechanical hiccup from the engine or transmission, and [B]after perusing the World Wide Web we haven't come across anyone who has experienced otherwise.
Although it's still too early to have explored the life span of the transmission's wet clutches, when we consulted Audi on this subject we were surprised to learn that they are expected to last the life of the vehicle, regardless of shifting frequency or aggression

Our overall upkeep costs were minimal thanks to the Audi Advantage Maintenance Program, which provided inspection along with filters and oil free of charge (normal-wear items such as brake pads/rotors are not included) for four years or 50,000 miles. However, this program for all newly purchased 2007 models now requires an initial fee of $590. At 50,000 miles we have yet to replace a wiper blade or brake lining, and by the looks of it, could probably squeeze another 20,000 miles out of what's left — everlasting brake pads, anyone?

Because our car came equipped with the sport package, which included among other things a sport suspension and summer tires, our 225/45ZR-17 Dunlop SP Sport Maxx rubber ($167 apiece mounted and balanced) cost us a bit more to replace than the standard Pirelli P6 Four Seasons ($152 each), but they didn't burn holes in our pockets either. We feel it was absolutely worth the extra cost not only because the tires added a world of change to our spirited driving experience, but also 23,000 miles is an awful long way to forsake summer performance tires when you're probably only offsetting a couple days of lunch money and a week's worth of Venti Orange Mocha Frappuccinos.
[/quote]

JD23

How did you come to this conclusion?

SSFTSX

resale u can pretty easily find by doing wide area search on internet for used 2009 A4 prices. and do the same for TSX/TL or BMW. It shouldnt be surprize that Audi is delievering better overall satisfaction. both Strategic vision survey and JD Power Appeal survey attest to it rather than minor complaints of counting problems. No one should puat same expectations Acura 2009 long term reliability based on 1980s/90s experiance of Honda as Japan is no longer the land of rising sun and cars are more complicated. navigation/audio/HVAC/Voice/rear camera are more integrated and steering is electric. all these will add in maintaiance cost in long term after warranty period. and this is the most simplest of things. not counting long term reliability of torque vectoring/turbo engines which honda is avoiding. I will even add leather seats. it is better to buy new car rather than maintianing old uncomfortable wear and tear seats after 10 years.

katmai

I would stop reading now unless you're really bored! Although SSFTSX would be a really good salesman. Japan is no longer the land of the rising sun?? LMAO

katmai

They also aren't making the monthly payments. LOL

JD23

Let's just say that this thread provided me with about 15 minutes of solid entertainment yesterday.