Purchasing TSX this month, help understanding TMV
04-03-2012, 12:02 PM
#1
Purchasing TSX this month, help understanding TMV
Could someone please shine some light on TMV.
In my area, for a 2012 TSX SE, Edmunds shows TMV=$29,936. My understanding is this includes destination and regional adjustment fees (documentation fee, tag, and tax are NOT included).
So then I get a quote that goes something like this:
Price: $29,800
Documentation Fee: $598
6% Tax: $1823.88
Tag Fee: $27
OTD Price: $32,248.88
So since the ‘Price’ is below the TMV from Edmunds by $136, does that mean I got a fair/good price even though my total is $32,248?
Something else to mention I suppose. I called them over the phone and this was the first quote I got. No negotiations required. Which is why I’m curious….Why would the first price they give me already be below TMV?
Any help would be great!
In my area, for a 2012 TSX SE, Edmunds shows TMV=$29,936. My understanding is this includes destination and regional adjustment fees (documentation fee, tag, and tax are NOT included).
So then I get a quote that goes something like this:
Price: $29,800
Documentation Fee: $598
6% Tax: $1823.88
Tag Fee: $27
OTD Price: $32,248.88
So since the ‘Price’ is below the TMV from Edmunds by $136, does that mean I got a fair/good price even though my total is $32,248?
Something else to mention I suppose. I called them over the phone and this was the first quote I got. No negotiations required. Which is why I’m curious….Why would the first price they give me already be below TMV?
Any help would be great!
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illuzionb18c1 (04-03-2012)
04-03-2012, 12:38 PM
#3
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I check out TRUECAR as well. However I feel it's pretty high for the TSX. TRUECAR still says you should buy the car for $30k before taxes and such.
http://www.truecar.com/prices-new/ac...2012/1D92A564/
Myself and a few other on here have got the TSX SE Auto for 28,xxx INCLUDING destination, but plus taxes.
I would not pay that much for the SE.....Esp if it's what they gave you up front.
http://www.truecar.com/prices-new/ac...2012/1D92A564/
Myself and a few other on here have got the TSX SE Auto for 28,xxx INCLUDING destination, but plus taxes.
I would not pay that much for the SE.....Esp if it's what they gave you up front.
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illuzionb18c1 (04-03-2012)
04-03-2012, 12:44 PM
#4
Invoice (Base Vehicle, Regional Ad Fees, and Destination)=$29,920
04-03-2012, 12:46 PM
#5
I check out TRUECAR as well. However I feel it's pretty high for the TSX. TRUECAR still says you should buy the car for $30k before taxes and such.
http://www.truecar.com/prices-new/ac...2012/1D92A564/
Myself and a few other on here have got the TSX SE Auto for 28,xxx INCLUDING destination, but plus taxes.
I would not pay that much for the SE.....Esp if it's what they gave you up front.
http://www.truecar.com/prices-new/ac...2012/1D92A564/
Myself and a few other on here have got the TSX SE Auto for 28,xxx INCLUDING destination, but plus taxes.
I would not pay that much for the SE.....Esp if it's what they gave you up front.
04-03-2012, 12:55 PM
#6
Developer & Car Fan
Not always possible, but I got the dealer to waive doc fee from the final cost. Also got the sticker for free but I didn't really fight for that one... FYI.
Matt
Matt
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illuzionb18c1 (04-03-2012)
04-03-2012, 01:39 PM
#7
I've never found Edmunds TMV to be even close.TrueCar seems to be more accurate. That said, you need to make sure that you are comparing apples to apples. None of the sites include "documentation fees" - a scam that most states let the dealers get away with. In most states this is capped ($199 in MD, $399 in VA, $699 in CO etc.) so that should be part of the negotiation - but above what Edmunds and TrueCar say.
The price of a car is composed of lots of things
Invoice is what the dealer is billed for the vehicle.
Subtracted from that is:
Holdback - a % that the dealer is paid once the car is sold. This is listed on places like Edmunds.
Dealer's volume incentives - this is an amount that only the GM at the dealership knows and can change with each car sold. You have zero way of figuring out what that is.
Manufacturer to Dealer cash - posted on Edmunds and other sites.
Added to that is:
Regional advertising fees - depends on region but is generally in the $300-$400 range
Floorplan fees - A fee the dealer pays the manufacturer as "interest" on the car until it is sold. Generally a couple of hundred dollars
Dealer prep - also a couple of hundred
All of the above additions are listed on the invoice. If it isn't on the invoice then it isn't a legit charge from the manufacturer. The above additions are included in MSRP.
Destination is a legitimate fee charged by the manufacturer and is listed as a separate line item on both the invoice and the MSRP. Dealers like to reduce the advertised cost of the car by including that tiny asterisk and "does not include destination, fees, taxes or tags."
There are also a few legitimate items added to the true cost to get the out the door price.
That stupid documentation fee - discussed above. It is legitimate only because the states allow the dealers to charge this fee. It is pure profit and can be negotiated - but don't be surprised if the charge appears on the invoice with the cost of the car reduced by the negotiated amount.
Example - because this confuses lots of folks.
Let's say you state allows the dealer to charge a $200 documentation fee (sometimes called a processing fee or something similar.) You negotiate a price of $30,000 and no processing fee. Your bill will most likely state $29800 for the car plus $200 processing fee. That way dealers can say "we always charge a processing fee.
Taxes - depends on your state. Some states give you credit for trades, some do not. Because I had a trade, I paid $20 in taxes.
Tags, Registration and Title - depends on your state.
In general, everything except for govt fees (tages, tags, registration, title) can be negotiated.
Does that help?
Specific to the TSX - in most areas of the country, they are going for about invoice minus the Acura manufacturer to dealer cash plus crap fees plus Govt fees.
Pricing is very regional. I can get a much better price in the DC metro area than in Colorado (more dealers in DC) and can get a better price in VA (more dealers than MD) but MD has a lower doc fee (which the VA dealer matched.)
The price of a car is composed of lots of things
Invoice is what the dealer is billed for the vehicle.
Subtracted from that is:
Holdback - a % that the dealer is paid once the car is sold. This is listed on places like Edmunds.
Dealer's volume incentives - this is an amount that only the GM at the dealership knows and can change with each car sold. You have zero way of figuring out what that is.
Manufacturer to Dealer cash - posted on Edmunds and other sites.
Added to that is:
Regional advertising fees - depends on region but is generally in the $300-$400 range
Floorplan fees - A fee the dealer pays the manufacturer as "interest" on the car until it is sold. Generally a couple of hundred dollars
Dealer prep - also a couple of hundred
All of the above additions are listed on the invoice. If it isn't on the invoice then it isn't a legit charge from the manufacturer. The above additions are included in MSRP.
Destination is a legitimate fee charged by the manufacturer and is listed as a separate line item on both the invoice and the MSRP. Dealers like to reduce the advertised cost of the car by including that tiny asterisk and "does not include destination, fees, taxes or tags."
There are also a few legitimate items added to the true cost to get the out the door price.
That stupid documentation fee - discussed above. It is legitimate only because the states allow the dealers to charge this fee. It is pure profit and can be negotiated - but don't be surprised if the charge appears on the invoice with the cost of the car reduced by the negotiated amount.
Example - because this confuses lots of folks.
Let's say you state allows the dealer to charge a $200 documentation fee (sometimes called a processing fee or something similar.) You negotiate a price of $30,000 and no processing fee. Your bill will most likely state $29800 for the car plus $200 processing fee. That way dealers can say "we always charge a processing fee.
Taxes - depends on your state. Some states give you credit for trades, some do not. Because I had a trade, I paid $20 in taxes.
Tags, Registration and Title - depends on your state.
In general, everything except for govt fees (tages, tags, registration, title) can be negotiated.
Does that help?
Specific to the TSX - in most areas of the country, they are going for about invoice minus the Acura manufacturer to dealer cash plus crap fees plus Govt fees.
Pricing is very regional. I can get a much better price in the DC metro area than in Colorado (more dealers in DC) and can get a better price in VA (more dealers than MD) but MD has a lower doc fee (which the VA dealer matched.)
The following 2 users liked this post by ceb:
illuzionb18c1 (04-03-2012),
MrOtocinclus (04-03-2012)
Trending Topics
04-03-2012, 01:55 PM
#8
I've never found Edmunds TMV to be even close.TrueCar seems to be more accurate. That said, you need to make sure that you are comparing apples to apples. None of the sites include "documentation fees" - a scam that most states let the dealers get away with. In most states this is capped ($199 in MD, $399 in VA, $699 in CO etc.) so that should be part of the negotiation - but above what Edmunds and TrueCar say.
The price of a car is composed of lots of things
Invoice is what the dealer is billed for the vehicle.
Subtracted from that is:
Holdback - a % that the dealer is paid once the car is sold. This is listed on places like Edmunds.
Dealer's volume incentives - this is an amount that only the GM at the dealership knows and can change with each car sold. You have zero way of figuring out what that is.
Manufacturer to Dealer cash - posted on Edmunds and other sites.
Added to that is:
Regional advertising fees - depends on region but is generally in the $300-$400 range
Floorplan fees - A fee the dealer pays the manufacturer as "interest" on the car until it is sold. Generally a couple of hundred dollars
Dealer prep - also a couple of hundred
All of the above additions are listed on the invoice. If it isn't on the invoice then it isn't a legit charge from the manufacturer. The above additions are included in MSRP.
Destination is a legitimate fee charged by the manufacturer and is listed as a separate line item on both the invoice and the MSRP. Dealers like to reduce the advertised cost of the car by including that tiny asterisk and "does not include destination, fees, taxes or tags."
There are also a few legitimate items added to the true cost to get the out the door price.
That stupid documentation fee - discussed above. It is legitimate only because the states allow the dealers to charge this fee. It is pure profit and can be negotiated - but don't be surprised if the charge appears on the invoice with the cost of the car reduced by the negotiated amount.
Example - because this confuses lots of folks.
Let's say you state allows the dealer to charge a $200 documentation fee (sometimes called a processing fee or something similar.) You negotiate a price of $30,000 and no processing fee. Your bill will most likely state $29800 for the car plus $200 processing fee. That way dealers can say "we always charge a processing fee.
Taxes - depends on your state. Some states give you credit for trades, some do not. Because I had a trade, I paid $20 in taxes.
Tags, Registration and Title - depends on your state.
In general, everything except for govt fees (tages, tags, registration, title) can be negotiated.
Does that help?
Specific to the TSX - in most areas of the country, they are going for about invoice minus the Acura manufacturer to dealer cash plus crap fees plus Govt fees.
Pricing is very regional. I can get a much better price in the DC metro area than in Colorado (more dealers in DC) and can get a better price in VA (more dealers than MD) but MD has a lower doc fee (which the VA dealer matched.)
The price of a car is composed of lots of things
Invoice is what the dealer is billed for the vehicle.
Subtracted from that is:
Holdback - a % that the dealer is paid once the car is sold. This is listed on places like Edmunds.
Dealer's volume incentives - this is an amount that only the GM at the dealership knows and can change with each car sold. You have zero way of figuring out what that is.
Manufacturer to Dealer cash - posted on Edmunds and other sites.
Added to that is:
Regional advertising fees - depends on region but is generally in the $300-$400 range
Floorplan fees - A fee the dealer pays the manufacturer as "interest" on the car until it is sold. Generally a couple of hundred dollars
Dealer prep - also a couple of hundred
All of the above additions are listed on the invoice. If it isn't on the invoice then it isn't a legit charge from the manufacturer. The above additions are included in MSRP.
Destination is a legitimate fee charged by the manufacturer and is listed as a separate line item on both the invoice and the MSRP. Dealers like to reduce the advertised cost of the car by including that tiny asterisk and "does not include destination, fees, taxes or tags."
There are also a few legitimate items added to the true cost to get the out the door price.
That stupid documentation fee - discussed above. It is legitimate only because the states allow the dealers to charge this fee. It is pure profit and can be negotiated - but don't be surprised if the charge appears on the invoice with the cost of the car reduced by the negotiated amount.
Example - because this confuses lots of folks.
Let's say you state allows the dealer to charge a $200 documentation fee (sometimes called a processing fee or something similar.) You negotiate a price of $30,000 and no processing fee. Your bill will most likely state $29800 for the car plus $200 processing fee. That way dealers can say "we always charge a processing fee.
Taxes - depends on your state. Some states give you credit for trades, some do not. Because I had a trade, I paid $20 in taxes.
Tags, Registration and Title - depends on your state.
In general, everything except for govt fees (tages, tags, registration, title) can be negotiated.
Does that help?
Specific to the TSX - in most areas of the country, they are going for about invoice minus the Acura manufacturer to dealer cash plus crap fees plus Govt fees.
Pricing is very regional. I can get a much better price in the DC metro area than in Colorado (more dealers in DC) and can get a better price in VA (more dealers than MD) but MD has a lower doc fee (which the VA dealer matched.)
Thanks for that reply. Invoice on TrueCars is $29,920. I think Manufacturer to Dealer Incentive is $500. So "average" going rate your saying is roughly $29,420 (before tax/tag/title)? Does this include the documentation fee?
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illuzionb18c1 (04-03-2012)
04-03-2012, 02:13 PM
#10
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illuzionb18c1 (04-03-2012)
04-03-2012, 02:23 PM
#12
This site can be of help too if people would use some standard format like
"Invoice was $xyz, I negotiated $xpp as the base price before document and govy fees."
Comparisons are always hard because the often involve odd variables like trades. When I bought my car, the negotiated price was a couple hundred over a MD dealer's price, but the VA dealer gave me a much better price on my trade than any of the other dealers so I came out far ahead. If you have a trade then there are just too many variables to be able to dissect the deal into "I paid this for my new car."
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illuzionb18c1 (04-03-2012)
04-03-2012, 05:51 PM
#13
That's what I'd be aiming for in the DC metro area. OTOH, I'd also check places like USAA for any "hidded" rebates to the dealer.
This site can be of help too if people would use some standard format like
"Invoice was $xyz, I negotiated $xpp as the base price before document and govy fees."
Comparisons are always hard because the often involve odd variables like trades. When I bought my car, the negotiated price was a couple hundred over a MD dealer's price, but the VA dealer gave me a much better price on my trade than any of the other dealers so I came out far ahead. If you have a trade then there are just too many variables to be able to dissect the deal into "I paid this for my new car."
This site can be of help too if people would use some standard format like
"Invoice was $xyz, I negotiated $xpp as the base price before document and govy fees."
Comparisons are always hard because the often involve odd variables like trades. When I bought my car, the negotiated price was a couple hundred over a MD dealer's price, but the VA dealer gave me a much better price on my trade than any of the other dealers so I came out far ahead. If you have a trade then there are just too many variables to be able to dissect the deal into "I paid this for my new car."
How's this one....
Price=$29000
GA Documentation=$599
6% Tax=$1775.94
Tag/Title=$21
OTD=$31395.94
04-04-2012, 08:54 AM
#14
CR
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Louisville, KY
Age: 38
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To much still. Ceb posted all the good info there^
Doc fee is pure dealer profit. It's what they are charging you for doing paper work etc. Like Ceb said, some states are smart and have caught onto this BS. Making a cap on what dealers can charge for doc fees. States like mine (KY), GA etc. have not. So dealers charge an ungodly amount of $599 for pure prift.
When I buy/lease a car I always negotiate the price with everything but taxes included. Sometimes with taxes included if I'm buying the car and not leasing.
Just tell them you can go elsewhere and buy the car without a crazy doc fee. My $28,xxx was with doc fees, tag/title included. I told them I was not willing to pay the doc fee, I had not problem going elsewhere to buy the car with no doc fee.
Doc fee is pure dealer profit. It's what they are charging you for doing paper work etc. Like Ceb said, some states are smart and have caught onto this BS. Making a cap on what dealers can charge for doc fees. States like mine (KY), GA etc. have not. So dealers charge an ungodly amount of $599 for pure prift.
When I buy/lease a car I always negotiate the price with everything but taxes included. Sometimes with taxes included if I'm buying the car and not leasing.
Just tell them you can go elsewhere and buy the car without a crazy doc fee. My $28,xxx was with doc fees, tag/title included. I told them I was not willing to pay the doc fee, I had not problem going elsewhere to buy the car with no doc fee.
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illuzionb18c1 (04-04-2012)
04-04-2012, 11:38 AM
#15
To much still. Ceb posted all the good info there^
Doc fee is pure dealer profit. It's what they are charging you for doing paper work etc. Like Ceb said, some states are smart and have caught onto this BS. Making a cap on what dealers can charge for doc fees. States like mine (KY), GA etc. have not. So dealers charge an ungodly amount of $599 for pure prift.
When I buy/lease a car I always negotiate the price with everything but taxes included. Sometimes with taxes included if I'm buying the car and not leasing.
Just tell them you can go elsewhere and buy the car without a crazy doc fee. My $28,xxx was with doc fees, tag/title included. I told them I was not willing to pay the doc fee, I had not problem going elsewhere to buy the car with no doc fee.
Doc fee is pure dealer profit. It's what they are charging you for doing paper work etc. Like Ceb said, some states are smart and have caught onto this BS. Making a cap on what dealers can charge for doc fees. States like mine (KY), GA etc. have not. So dealers charge an ungodly amount of $599 for pure prift.
When I buy/lease a car I always negotiate the price with everything but taxes included. Sometimes with taxes included if I'm buying the car and not leasing.
Just tell them you can go elsewhere and buy the car without a crazy doc fee. My $28,xxx was with doc fees, tag/title included. I told them I was not willing to pay the doc fee, I had not problem going elsewhere to buy the car with no doc fee.
04-04-2012, 12:09 PM
#16
I checked USAA last night. It looks like the target price for the DC area is about $30,200 for a tech sedan (plus doc, taxes, tags etc, but including destination and the manuf to dealer $500)) and about $30400 nationwide.
Don't try to overanalyze it or always try to get the lowest rock bottom price. Find a dealer that gives you a price close to the target that is convenient, appears friendly, has loaners and a nice uncrowded shop.
The more crowded the parking lot is, the bigger the chances of lot damage when you bring your car in for service.
Don't try to overanalyze it or always try to get the lowest rock bottom price. Find a dealer that gives you a price close to the target that is convenient, appears friendly, has loaners and a nice uncrowded shop.
The more crowded the parking lot is, the bigger the chances of lot damage when you bring your car in for service.
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illuzionb18c1 (04-04-2012)
04-04-2012, 12:32 PM
#17
I have three (3) suggestions for getting the best price.
1. If you can wait until summer or the end of the month you are in the best shape as dealers are trying to make way for the 2013s.
2. Do preliminary online negotiating. Generally, online dealers do not make comission but rather earn money on the number of cars sold - so there is no incentive in screwing you over.
3.
1. If you can wait until summer or the end of the month you are in the best shape as dealers are trying to make way for the 2013s.
2. Do preliminary online negotiating. Generally, online dealers do not make comission but rather earn money on the number of cars sold - so there is no incentive in screwing you over.
3.
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illuzionb18c1 (04-04-2012)
04-04-2012, 12:36 PM
#18
Sorry, accidently hit enter before I was finished..ah the suspense!
3. Pit dealerships against one another using their online dealers. I did this when I bought my 2011 TSX. I was dealing with two dealership and told them what the other was offering - make them work for your business. Also, don't agree to any price online. Say something like "that's getting closer to what I'm looking at pricewise." They will always say they can offer a better deal when you come into the dealership. Print out the email string (just in case there is any dispute) and you can do a little more traditional haggling.
3. Pit dealerships against one another using their online dealers. I did this when I bought my 2011 TSX. I was dealing with two dealership and told them what the other was offering - make them work for your business. Also, don't agree to any price online. Say something like "that's getting closer to what I'm looking at pricewise." They will always say they can offer a better deal when you come into the dealership. Print out the email string (just in case there is any dispute) and you can do a little more traditional haggling.
The following users liked this post:
illuzionb18c1 (04-04-2012)
04-04-2012, 05:35 PM
#19
To much still. Ceb posted all the good info there^
Doc fee is pure dealer profit. It's what they are charging you for doing paper work etc. Like Ceb said, some states are smart and have caught onto this BS. Making a cap on what dealers can charge for doc fees. States like mine (KY), GA etc. have not. So dealers charge an ungodly amount of $599 for pure prift.
When I buy/lease a car I always negotiate the price with everything but taxes included. Sometimes with taxes included if I'm buying the car and not leasing.
Just tell them you can go elsewhere and buy the car without a crazy doc fee. My $28,xxx was with doc fees, tag/title included. I told them I was not willing to pay the doc fee, I had not problem going elsewhere to buy the car with no doc fee.
Doc fee is pure dealer profit. It's what they are charging you for doing paper work etc. Like Ceb said, some states are smart and have caught onto this BS. Making a cap on what dealers can charge for doc fees. States like mine (KY), GA etc. have not. So dealers charge an ungodly amount of $599 for pure prift.
When I buy/lease a car I always negotiate the price with everything but taxes included. Sometimes with taxes included if I'm buying the car and not leasing.
Just tell them you can go elsewhere and buy the car without a crazy doc fee. My $28,xxx was with doc fees, tag/title included. I told them I was not willing to pay the doc fee, I had not problem going elsewhere to buy the car with no doc fee.
Thanks for everyone's help. Really helped me gauge where I needed to be. I'm sure there are better deals out there, but I felt comfortable with this price.
Final price for the TSX SE for $28,894.61 (includes doc fees but BEFORE tax/tag)
04-04-2012, 07:22 PM
#20
Good job. The target for an SE is about 29,2.
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illuzionb18c1 (04-04-2012)
04-05-2012, 01:10 PM
#21
I checked USAA last night. It looks like the target price for the DC area is about $30,200 for a tech sedan (plus doc, taxes, tags etc, but including destination and the manuf to dealer $500)) and about $30400 nationwide.
Don't try to overanalyze it or always try to get the lowest rock bottom price. Find a dealer that gives you a price close to the target that is convenient, appears friendly, has loaners and a nice uncrowded shop.
The more crowded the parking lot is, the bigger the chances of lot damage when you bring your car in for service.
Don't try to overanalyze it or always try to get the lowest rock bottom price. Find a dealer that gives you a price close to the target that is convenient, appears friendly, has loaners and a nice uncrowded shop.
The more crowded the parking lot is, the bigger the chances of lot damage when you bring your car in for service.
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