Arcticcl9

The 2nd Gen TSX oil viscosity is at 5w-20, down from 5w-30 for the 1st gen TSX. I believe that they used it for fuel economy reason, and it doesn't necessary protect an engine as well as 5w-30 oils do. What do you think? Has anyone changed their oil and and replace it with 5w-30, or stuck with the recommended weight?

I can't find a 5-gallon jug of 0W-20 Mobil1 Synthetic Oil, let alone a 5W-20 oil for Mobil1 at Wal-Mart.

Also, if anyone has gone up to 5w-30 is there a noticible mpg loss? Are the tolerances smaller in the 09 TSX engine that would justify the need for 5w-20 oil?

Colin

I cannot recommend moving to thicker oils. These engines are made to such tight tolerances that you might inhibit flow and actually protect the engine less. Also remember that Acura does not endorse or recommend synthetics in any of their cars except for the RDX. If you follow the maintenance minder, regular oil will suffice. Also, no synthetics in a new engine till 5-10,000 miles.

09TSXMN

I agree to stick with the 5W-20. I was not aware that Honda does not endorse synthetics, have you heard of any particular reason? I know the Mazda RX-8 in 04? had problems with synthetics on its rotorary, which actually led to a recall and replacement engines when damaged, but have not heard of any issues with the Honda engines.

LaserBoy

If you have a love of motor oil, and have a few months to get caught up on reading, head over here: Bob is the Oil Guy forums.
Pennzoil Platinum synthetic has performed well in this type of honda block. Mobil One also, but the PP costs less. At the end of the day it's really about getting fresh oil in there before the old stuff wears out. Synthetic just happens to take longer to wear out. It can be of any brand, but as long as it's the correct viscosity and API certification ie. API SL ILSAC GF-4.

Oil and oil changes are like politics and religion.

Colin

I should clarify. Except for the break in period, they do not say synthetics are bad. The official stance is if you follow the recommended schedule, there is no benefit to synthetics.

Colin

Or Honda vs. Audi

aaronng

Travel halfway around the world, and the RHD version of the TSX here is spec'd to use 10w-30! Plus, in Japan, Honda also sells 0w-20 synthetic oils under their own brand (and they don't sell the RDX there).

Colin

But none of those guys are providing the warranty for your car in the US.

aaronng

You were saying that you couldn't use 5w-30 oil due to tight tolerances in the engine, and not because you would void warranty.

Colin

Acura provides a 6 year powertrain warranty, is this the same in all countries? If you want to split hairs, I said "might inhibit flow" and not that "you couldn't" use it. I also said that "I cannot recommend" using other than what they direct and not that "you would void warranty"

So, in the end, it's your car, do whatever you want to do. Or go to a forum and ask questions of people who are not the ones that are going to warranty your car. Or just do what the AHM says.

HeavyDuty

Geezus, I think I'd rather debate politics and religion in lieu of motor oil viscosity and oil change intervals.

I'd stick with what's recommended, and I'm glad to see that the TSX uses the same weight as the RDX (if I read correctly) because I need a change now and figured I'd get hosed on a synthetic fill if what I required was different than the RDX.

Colin

Well my question on the powertrain warranty was a sincere one. I wonder if the differences are somehow attributable to a difference in how long the factory is 'on the hook' for repairs.

HeavyDuty

I didn't think the question was insincere at all, I was more speaking to the original poster about sticking with what is specified.

09TSXMN

Would'nt you think that warranties would differ regionally because of market conditions in the region, not because the vehicle is set up differently? In otherwords, if that is what the rest of the competition is doing, then be similular to avoid excessive cost? The only variances regionally I can think of would be fuel quality differences and the availability of oil viscosities? I suppose there could be an argument for environmental influences such as in a desert, if the region is all desert?

kixo

Well, the 2011+ TSXs require even a lower viscosity -- 0w-20. Even though Acura says the engines now have tighter tolerances, I think the move was made for other reasons, too, including:

- Lower viscosity oil eeks out a .1 to .2 MPG savings. Not a big deal for an individual driver, but huge for an automaker trying to meet increasingly higher CAFE standards.

- 0w-20 is harder to find on the retail shelf. So DIYers might be more likely to have their oil changes done at the Acura dealer, thereby generating additional revenue.

- I can't find a pure dino 0w-20 out there -- just synthetics and semi-synthetics. So this is a defacto way of Acura promoting synthetics in its engine without having to require it and thus report higher maintenance costs.

I guess I remain unconvinced the switch from 5w-20 from 09-10 TSXs to 0w-20 in 2011+ TSXs was done purely for engine compatibility reasons. (Heck it was 5w-30 for the 1st Gen engines.)

If you read the manual carefully, it actually doesn't REQUIRE 0w-20, but rather says:

"Use Genuine Acura Motor Oil or another commercial engine oil of suitable viscosity for the ambient temperature as shown below."

(Temperature scale shows less than -20 degrees F to greater than 120 degrees F.)

Also, in the vehicles specs, API Premium grade 0w-20 is listed as "recommended."

alpha2beta

Thank you for saying this, this is why I use 5w30 Pennzoil Ultra in my 09 TSX,
Engine is the quietest with this oil as well and I get 34 MPG per tank on average.

iSeeYouTwo

Way to bump a 3 year old thread.

kixo

Well, who cares if the thread is old, if it's still relevant?

This is a strange forum. You get criticized for resurrecting an old thread, but when you start a new one, you get criticized for duplicating an existing thread.

I somewhat disagree with Colin. I would normally do exactly what AHM recommends, but after seeing Honda recently allow corporate financial motives overrule sound engineering decisions, I have my doubts about moving to a 0w-20.

Also, as I pointed out, even though AHM doesn't recommend synthetics for its vehicles, it does by default as there is no pure dino 0w-20 on the market today - just synthetics and synblends.

It's interesting to note the different oil recommendations across the world -- perhaps due more to temperatures and driving conditions than powertrain warranties.

And for the Civic Si, which has basically the same engine as the TSX, 5w-30 is recommended.

stan_t

My oil cap says "0w-20" on it.

Stan

kixo

The 09-10 TSXs were at 5w-20. For 11+, Acura changed the recommended oil to 0w-20.

turning japanese

5w-20 versus 0w-20. They are the same oil in respect to viscosity since the cst (the viscosity measurement) of the oil at operating temperature is the same (the viscosity at 100 degrees C.) 20 and 20 are same numbers. At operating temp, they are the same oil. But the 0w is thinner at cold start up which is when you want 'thin' oil.

As we all should know, the w is the cold start viscosity. (The SAE designated the w for winter and not weight.)

Start up (dry running) is when the motor gets the most stress and wear. 0w allows for less wear at start up (oil moves more quickly and lubricates faster; it flows better, it's less viscous.) 5w is more viscous at the same cold temperature and can add to wear because of the impeded flow. Dry running (which happens at all start ups) should be kept at a minimum.

But at 0w the oil is absolutely viscous enough to protect the motor at cold starts. Viscosity is measured in cst/temp (normally at 100 C.) The cst (viscosity) at cold starts is higher than the cst at 100 degrees C.

An example in the real world:

Mercedes had specified Mobil 1 Euro Formula 0w-40 for the AMG M156 motor (6.2 liter V8 with 507 hp and 465 ft lbs of torque.) The point was less wear at start up. However, the M156 is a flat tappet design motor and with steel tappets and chilled iron camshafts. The motor was notorious for a loud ticking noise until oil had circulated and warmed up to operating temp (there is a very prominent flashing oil temp readout on the IC that only stops flashing once the oil has reached proper temp.)

The main issue was that the oil was getting squeezed out from the tappets when they rested on the cam lobes and the oil would drip out leaving very little to zero protection between lifter and lobe. If the car sat for a while (a few days) there was no lubrication until the oil could circulate. Mercedes/AMG decided to switch specs and go to 5w-40 with the idea that a bit thicker oil might keep things better lubricated at cold starts (the oil wouldn't squeeze out so easily.) It sounds contrary to wanting 0w for less wear at start but in this case is was a trade-off on protecting cam lobe and lifter wear (thinner oil gets squeezed out between lifters and lobes.) But at operating temps the 0w-40 and 5w-40 are the exact same oil.

It's highly likely that Honda determined the 0w was a better oil for cold starts and went from 5w to 0w for less stress on the motor.

Narrow viscosity oils like 0w-20 (and 5w-20) usually have less shearing and need less VIs (viscosity improvers) then do wide span oils like 0w-40. What keeps thinning from occurring in multigrade oils is the VI additives (as motor temps increase, viscosity will diminish.) But the VIs can shear (better oils tend to have better VI additives that don't shear so rapidly.) Wide span oils have more VIs which can increase shear.

At high operating temps like 120 degree C (the AMG M156 motor could reach that in everyday non-aggressive driving) the thicker viscosity is clearly important. Hence the 0w-40 specification.

Mobil Super Synthetic 0w-20 (recommended for the 2012 TSX I4) has a cst/100 degrees C of 8.6. As a comparison Mobil 1 0w-40 has a cst of 13.5. My guess is that the TSX's I4 doesn't operate at such very high temps to warrant a higher cst. It's a small mass and probably doesn't get that hot to the point of thinning the viscosity of the oil to be an issue and that 8.6 cst is perfectly fine. These cars don't have oil temp gauges to monitor things either (implying that it's probably not an issue even under aggressive driving.) And in fact, thicker oils cause more heat due to increased friction. It's been kind of a rule of thumb to use the thinnest oil that you can get away with (even if you have a performance motor operating at high temps.) And if you track the TSX on occasion, then changing out the oil after each session is all you really have to do (instead of increasing oil thickness.)

Novichek

Agree 100% with what Turning Javanese said. Just want to add that 30-weight oils are only very marginally thicker that 20-weight oils and operating temps. Given variations in different manufacturers it could be there's almost difference at all. You need to stay as close to zero as possible though if you want maximum cold start protection. All in all how often the oil is changed matters more than using 5w-30 vs. 0w-20.

PyroDave

thanks alot for this, i don't know much about oils. i like doin my own changes even though its cheaper at the dealer. i buy the OEM filters, but i buy Mobil oil, i have no reasoning, but i have always liked Mobil 1. if the change is before the summer, i use a 5W-20, if its before the winter, i use 0W-20. usually i get the Mobil 1 fuel efficiency 0W-20 or the like. it averages about 8.99 a quart not on sale. its good to know that i can actually use Mobil Super 0W-20 as that is a good 2 dollars cheaper and i'd end up saving 10 bucks an oil change. thanks buddy for the info on CST's

robpp

iTrader: (2)

thanks turning Japanese.


like Pyro I have bought and used the M1 0w20 Advanced Fuel. I saw your recommendation for the other M1 so I went to Mobil 1 website and played the game: Best oil for me.

It comes up with the Fuel efficiency M1 0w20 as the Best protection. It mentions the other M1 as a bit lower protection.

http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/...l_1_0W-20.aspx

just saying

justnspace

iTrader: (1)

also, HTHS is important!
you dont want an oil that shears at high temperature!!

Redline 5w-30 is one of the best oils in this department!!
has a shear rate of 3.9 or 4%

damaged442

For my 09, I use Mobil 1 5W-20. Not sure if you've looked into it, but I got a 5 qt bottle at Wally World for $26. I think they also had the 0W-20 in the 5 qt. Either way, it's significantly less expensive than $8.99/qt, and you save a bit more than 10 bucks an oil change. Hope this helps.

turning japanese

fwiw, the Mobil 1 Advanced Fuel Efficiency 0w-20 has a cst/100 degree C tested at 8.7. The Mobil 1 Super Syn 0w-20 has a 8.6 cst. So there's no real difference there but obviously you can save with your pocketbook if it's cheaper.

Don't forget that a lot of Mobil's marketing is like any commodity. The sole selling points for consumers: ie better protection, etc.. "Fuel Efficiency" "Super Synthetic" etc.. Theses are marketing names. Also there are EPA issues like catalytic convertor health, low ash content for diesel, etc., that do require some specific formulas.

But if you plug in a 2012 TSX with the I4 or any other vehicle that doesn't have a very specific OEM requirement, you can select 'superior' or 'premium' or 'ultimate' protection (just like condoms.) So it's up to your own personal comfort levels based on their marketing. It's like buying anything, pick your poison based on the actual specs (Mobil lists all the specs of each flavor of oil.) The rest of it is pure marketing (aside from the necessary blends for very specific uses as I mentioned above.)

(fwiw, my father is a petroleum geologist for Exxon Mobil.)

justnspace

iTrader: (1)

M1 0w-40 also has a HTHS rate of 3.9 or 4%

Ken1997TL

My guess is that 0w-20 is for improved emissions during cold starts. The newer piston sleeves with molybdenum allow tighter tolerances and better contact.

turning japanese

That makes sense. Current technology is focused on reducing CO2 emissions and reducing friction at cold start is all part of that.

The EPA said this a few years ago about 0W-20 motor oils:

"More advanced multi-viscosity engine and transmission oils are now available with improved performance in a wider temperature band, with better lubricating properties. Manufacturers are moving from 5W-30 to 5W-20 and even 0W-20 engine oils to reduce cold start friction.

This may directionally benefit the fuel economy improvements of valvetrain technologies such as cylinder deactivation, which rely on a minimum oil temperature (viscosity) for operation. Confidential manufacturer data submitted by vehicle manufacturers in response to NHTSA’s February 2007 Request for Comment (2/2007 RFC) suggests that low-friction lubricants could reduce CO2 emissions by 0.5 percent for all vehicle types."

kixo

Turning Japanese --

Thanks for your informative posts (and Vapors reference).

Question - if you live in a temperate climate that never sees temperatures below 38 degrees, is it better to use a 5w-20 as it has a narrower viscosity span than a 0w-20?

Or does does the 0w offer better protection at cold starts than a 5w even at warmer temperatures?

Novichek

0W oil does protect better then 5W even at 75 degrees start (thickness of 40 vs. about 70).

turning japanese

As Novichek points out, the cold viscosity is thinner and performs better at starts. If you're concerned about the wider span between 5w and 0w, there's very little difference in the important issues like shear properties and cst at 100 C. The HTHS (shear) is identical and so is the kinematic viscosity (at operating temps); it's within a few tenths.

Here's an example of 0W versus 5W:

0w-20
cst 100 degrees C: 8.7
cst 40 degrees C: 44.8
HTHS (shear rate): 2.7

5w-20
cst 100 degrees C: 8.9
cst 40 degrees C: 49.8
HTHS (shear rate): 2.75

Note the important numbers are relatively the same. But you do get better cold start cst with the 0w (44.8 versus 49.8) So it is a thinner oil at start up. The viscosity index is 173 for the 0w and 160 for the 5w because of that cst difference at 40 degrees C. Yet the shear rate is identical, and it's high enough without compromising your mpg. This motor is an inline 4 and not an exotic V12, so I wouldn't search for higher HTHS numbers. You'll just get lower mpg, and anyway I'm sure you change your oil out when recommended and don't do extended 15-20k mile OCIs, etc.. (If you're really concerned, then just do some sampling and UOAs to monitor it.)

Remember that despite the ambient temperatures (I also live in a moderate year around climate) 40 degrees C is 104 degrees F. The viscosity of oil at lower temps than that (say, 70-80 degrees F) will be higher.

Anyway, of course it's okay to use the 5w. If you find it's less expensive and/or more available, then you can make your decisions based on your personal economics. But in the end why not just follow the factory recommendations for your motor and make life simple. Again, these aren't high performance designer motors and they were designed more for reliability. Use what they specify and don't think about it anymore (that's why I personally bought this car, so I wouldn't have to my spend time worrying about it and coddling it. )

greenl

what do you guys think about acura synthetic brand oil? http://acura.bernardiparts.com/08798-9XXX.aspx

princelybug

iTrader: (16)

Blends = waste of money.

WheelMcCoy

It looks like full synthetic, rather than a blend.

In contrast, they use a blend at the dealer. There is a small benefit of blends over regular oil, but it's mostly marketing that lets dealers charger a higher price for an oil change. Of course, full synthetic will cost even more.