Colin

Let's take Lexus' point of view. The TSX was already out when the IS250 was on the drawing boards. To save costs, the car would use a V-6 engine vs. continuing with the I6 of the previous version. Also to cut costs, they would use the chassis from the GS to make the new car.

What was Lexus thinking? The new IS still has a tiny back seat, at 204 Hp its significantly underpowered compared to the lighter TSX and the 328. And then they priced the car so a nicely equipped car runs into the mid-30's. Are they crazy!? Why does this car cost so much?

CGTSX2004

iTrader: (1)

Because Lexus knows that they can charge a premium for their brand and that there are people with money who prefer luxury over an engaging driving experience. Just look at Mercedes as the perfect example of the same. The new C-class is a nice looking car on the outside, but the interior is utter crap compared to nearly all of the competition. Yet, Mercedes still commands outrageous prices because they have brand equity built up around the Mercedes name.

Quite frankly, I'll bet that if BMW stopped making cars that were engaging to drive and skimped on materials, they would sell even more cars because so many of their buyers are just in it for the badge. However, one must admire the fact that BMW has stuck to its guns about being the sporty premium German brand. Mercedes is still the brand of those who wish to be pampered and Audi is the odd-man out with great cars that are a good mix of sport, luxury, and design.

Lexus seems to settle comfortably into the Mercedes role, Infiniti is without question gunning for BMW, which leaves Acura searching for a brand identity that it has not quite found yet...

NDLunchbox

Very well put. To some extent I see Acura as going for value buyers who are looking for just a little more prestige or sportiness offered by Honda or Toyota. You get a lot for your money and they have excellent resale values.

I'll admit that what I really want is a BMW but I'm not at the point in my life yet where I can pass up Acura's value. You can get an RL for the price of a loaded 3 series. I'd venture to guess there are lots and lots of Acura buyers who are like me.

LaZyPiGgY

Acura always has been the best value, but I believe its because the name does not demand the prestige that a BMW or Lexus or those other luxury brands demand.

Actually most of the time when people ask me what I drive and I tell them I have a TSX, their puzzled, like they've never heard of the Acura brand before, let alone the TSX.

Oh well, I love the uniqueness. I'm the one of 2 or 3 TSX's in my area.

feelgood13

well written... i yearn for the bmw badge also but their interior design is about 15 years outdated. i just wished my tsx had a higher quality leather.

Powered by Honda

Correct in all aspects.

However, in Canada the IS250 is 31,900 while the TSX starts at 36,400.

New C-Class *big big big upgrade from last gen* starts at 35,000.

323i 35,000

So Acura used to be the best value....now in Canada at least its not really anymore.

CSX Type S 33,000. Ouch 2k more then the lexus...and its just a civic with leather and bit more.

5o9

The rwd IS250 is very well respected. At the time, a well equipped IS250 would have cost me about $10,000 more than the TSX, and I found the TSX to be a much better value.

Next car, suspect I will return to rwd...

hans007

same here when i was getting my 05 tsx a few months before the 06 was comign out that is250 just came out. it was about 12000 more for comparable equipment including tax

cbusAcuracls

If I were in canada though I would consider the IS250 awd price closer to the fwd tsx. I know personally if I were living up in Canada the IS250 rwd would not be one of my options. Thus maybe why its priced so cheap in Canada...just my
I would like to see sales numbers of rwd vs awd IS250 sold in Canada.

moda_way

I drove an IS350 and putting the power aside, my only issues with it were numb steering (due to the electronic system) and a back seat that simply couldn't support putting my kids in there. Aside from that, the car was pretty nice. I've also had a BMW prior to getting my TSX and you simply can't say you're getting value when you buy a BMW until you've had it 14 years like I had mine. I'm not sure today's 3 series will last like my old 325i, but they certainly are very desireable.

gavinn58

Couldn't agree more. I personally think the IS250 is a huge waste of money. My wife and I bought her 350 sport for cheaper than some are paying for a loaded 250!

dom

The IS250 and IS in general has one saving grace.

The IS350


The only thing wrong with the IS IMO is that rear seat space. And like Powered By Honda mentioned. Up here, the IS250 is now a better value than the TSX. Although those 35K C classes and 3 series are strippers without many options.

prballard

The IS 350 doesn't handle as well as the 250. Much more powerful, but doesn't handle as well. It also doesn't come with a 6MT

A much improved and balanced setup would be a 350 with AWD and 6MT.

A few other things I would like to see improved, other than the price:

Fair ergonomics, but no where near as nice as the TSX.

Big Brother Navi that won't let you put a a new destination until you stop the car.

CGTSX2004

iTrader: (1)

Actually, the handling on both the 250 and the 350 is not bad. My biggest issue is that the steering feels like you're playing a video game. It feels so light and artificial. And of course, Dom has already mentioned the back seat.

prballard

Not really. The 350 has the suck ass "Vehicle Dynamics Integrated Management System", the 250 does not.

http://www.lexus.com/models/IS/features/safety.html

Here is Motortrend's comments on the VDIMS

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/..._steering.html

CGTSX2004

iTrader: (1)

Actually, the VDIMS can be switched off via a series of steps that has been documented elsewhere. Once that's off, the handling is reasonably good.

prballard

I can buy that.

Red@8

VDIM on the 08 and newer can be disabled via the push of a button no more pedal dance. It turns off all but one of the systems (i cant remember which one).

I found the power of the 350 so intoxicating that its other downfalls hardly seemed to matter. I am single so i could care less for the back seat but for those who do need it - man i would hate to be back there.

Also for refrence my is350 cost exactly $10k more than my TSX (both otd-tax/title/everything). Both are fully loaded: is350-lux/levinson/nav(no dynamic cruise) tsx-auto/nav.

5o9

Amen

You are right, a car than can keep you entertained for 14 years is worth a big price premium, maybe 50%-100%.

For me, a good value/price long term car right now would be the Cayman. No form of 911 is worth the premium.

To go 14 years right now, then the M3. I heard an audio interview with a BMW engineer where he said this is their fastest car on the track, and because of driver assists, he can set record lap times while talking on the cell phone

taz98spin

Where do you live?

I live in Indiana, and in my apartment complex alone,
there are 5 TSX all parked on the same street

hans007

i have driven the 350 and i think my main gripes with it were the steering was numb, and the brake feel was also numb.

i'd say on "feel" the tsx was better. oddly i drove the 350 at a lexus test drive event, and i walked away thinking the comparison bmws were a much better car to drive.

the 250, outside of being rwd and having a higher res nav system, is pretty much pointless. at least the 350 can go fast straight

rb1

I'm not sure I agree completely about value, unless you are including maintenance and reliability.

For example, VW makes cars that are to me a better value in terms of initial price and also offer very nice driving dynamics, but I went with Acura mainly because of reliability concerns.

BadBadNeil

I like the IS... Sure it has a small back seat but what do I care, I won't be sitting back there. When I get a 4 door car it is more to throw items in the back seat like my work bag or some things for a road trip, it's not to haul people around.

I also like the smaller size of the car to me it's easier to park and has room for what I need.

I've read a lot of reviews of the IS and a lot of people complain about squeeks and rattles after owning it for a few months, especially in the dash area. That is something I would be a bit worried about, especially when paying $35K for a car.

dadn4sc

I bought one of the first 350s off the truck when they came out. The car kicks ass. I got very few options to keep it under $40k. There have been a few minor rattle complaints on my part, but not too bad - most cars are the same or worse! The original post on this thread was about the 250 not being worth what they charge, and i agree. the thing drives smooth, but NO power. There are SO many people that have them loaded for close to 40grand! The TSX has always seemed like a great value to me, and i like the styling and option scheme that acura has. that being said, the perception these days is that acura isnt quite the luxury brand that lexus is. sorry, but thats it. thats why lexus charges more. i dont think i would take such a huge step down in performance (350-250) to save 4k. i think the opening price point for the 250 should be closer to 30k...but they don't seem to have a problem selling them!

BadBadNeil

I think the 250 starting price bare bones manual is around 30K but at least up here I'd say 80% of them or more are the 250AWD because of the snow and ice and that jumps the price up by at least 5K.

I wonder how the 350 handles in the snow, the old saying used to be to get AWD or FWD for snow and ice but now there are so many gadgets like traction control I wonder if it still applies as much as just buying good quality snow tires.

I will still put the IS350 on the short list for my next car. I'll go test drive the new TSX even if I'm not huge on it's looks.

darmok

I disagree about VW offering the value... let's compare the TSX to the Passat using TrueDelta. To get comparable features to the TSX you need to pick the Passat Lux trim, and add a cold weather package. That brings the sticker on the Passat to $31015 compared to the TSX's $28905. The Passat has a few features that the TSX doesn't (though some of them are pretty worthless, like a rear sunshade that I'd never use). TrueDelta assigns a $500 feature credit to the Passat based on this, which means the TSX is still $1610 of a better value than the Passat.

Oh, and that's AT to AT... for the 2.0T 6MT you can't get real cow on your seats at any price.

Of course the Passat is a bit bigger than the TSX. You could compare the GTI / GLI to the TSX (they're a bit smaller) but they don't quite have the same luxury feel that the Passat and TSX do. The GLI is a bit cheaper 6MT-to-6MT but is missing a whole bunch of stuff like a power driver's seat. And who wants to spend Acura money on a VW anyway?

TorontoTL

I own a Lexus IS 350 2007. I can tell you that it does quite well in the snow with winter tires of course. In fact, it does much better than my 2004 TL did with all seasons in the snow.

I have to agree with the Canadians here, the IS 250 is a much better deal than the TSX because it is several thousand dollars less expensive to buy. Having driven the TSX, IS 250, TL and the IS 350 extensively either through extended test drives or ownership, there is a good reason that Lexus is charging much more for a IS 350 than the TL or the TSX. The quality of the Lexus is much better and you don't feel like you're missing out on features that you can get on higher end models on a Lexus because you can get them on the IS. Ventilated heated / cooled seats, keyless push start, Active lighting system (turning headlights), head light washers all come to mind.

Colin

Interesting, from the early reviews, it looks like Acura has built a IS250 clone (but roomier). It's a little underpowered, a little overweight, and has numb steering response. If we can only duplicate the sales numbers of the IS we'll have a winner!

darmok

They're missing two essential ingredients: AWD (they're all AWD around here) and gorgeous styling. The new styling is inoffensive but not head-turning like the IS.

Colin

Honestly, I'm not that enamored with the IS' styling, but as I've said many times, styling is subjective. In the TSX favor are a usable back seat, and AWD is a non issue in my part of the country. Essentially all IS' sold here are 2WD.

TorontoTL

Acura continues to say that it strives to be a Tier 1 automaker. However, at the same time it refuses to offer a full set of luxury features on all of its models. This has always truly frustrated me about Acura. I don't want to have to buy a big car such as the RL to get a car with all the bells and whistles. A car the size of the old TSX, IS, 3 series, A4 etc is what I'm interested in. I also want to have all the luxury features that should be available on a car from a maker in the Tier 1. Things such as ventilated seats, headlights that turn, smart key, headlight washers, rear windshield sun shade. These are all small things but you cannot get them in a TSX. You can't even get them in a TL. You have to go all the way up to a RL to get these features. Whereas on the Audi, BMW and Lexus you can get those things on their smaller sport sedans. Acura really needs to offer these things on all their models to get to Tier 1, they can't just offer them only on their top of the line sedan.

Colin

Honda cannot offer these things with their current production/distribution model. I don't believe they really want to be "Tier 1". However, I DO believe that you cannot get up in a press conference and announce your goal of "Tier 2" status.

bradykp

i'm not sure if you're criticizing lexus or if you're just trying to state what they are. but whatever the intent was, i'm here to somewhat defend lexus and the other luxuries.

first, i think you are right about SOME BMW drivers, but most of the BMW drivers I know what that machine that they are buying, so I don't think BMW could get away with it. i think good evidence of that is how they started to struggle as quality dropped. not that they were ever great "quality" vehicles like a honda or toyota, but they hit a spell where the became horrible, and sales suffered. the result was the "free" maintenance program that we all know now.

i never liked mercedes as a car anyways, so i'll pass on them.

lexus definitely never tried to be a machine. they are good vehicles with great luxury. and yes, there is also a charge for the brand. but you cannot discount that when you sit in a lexus, there is little to no road noise, which takes a lot of engineering and soundproofing materials. the leather is much nicer, as well as other materials, than other cars. the quality is all there.

if anyone has ever experienced servicing a lexus, it's pretty amazing too. the service professionals are great, they pamper you, they really cross the line as far as going above and beyond.

now, i'm not downing acura at all. acura is what it is....it's a taste of the luxury world with good quality vehicles and good service experience for a GREAT value.

lexus may someday be my car, but for now, the value of acura wins for me (thought the 2009 TSX might be turning me off) - we'll see what else they have to offer when i'm ready to stop driving the 2006 TSX

bradykp

i would venture to guess that more people turn their heads for the IS than for the TSX. i LOVE my TSX, but i still admire the IS. but yes, personal preference...

TorontoTL

Well these are the types of things they need to offer if they want to be taken seriously as a Tier 1 automaker since the other Luxury brands allow you to have these luxuries on their smaller offerings.

I would like to see Acura doing better than they currently are.

bradykp

i'm pretty happy with what acura is. they are a value entry to the tier 1. i can sacrifice on a slightly lesser quality leather and fake wood to save $$5,000-$10,000 over comparable models.

darmok

Why not? Is there anything wrong with coming right out and saying "instead of offering a traditional luxury experience, we're going to focus on delivering the best vehicle technology and a simplified buying experience at a price which undercuts the established luxury makes"?

The goal is to make money, right? Finding a market niche that you can dominate is a lot easier than trying to attack your competitors on their own turf.

dom

How many press clippings do we have to see that proclaim Acura going after Tier 1, Bentley and Aston Martin?

Stop talking about it then. There are other things they can say which darmok nicely pointed out.

I think they mean what they say but have no clue how to go about it with that leash from Honda Japan around their neck.

Does anyone really think that US Execs at Acura were happy about the TSX that was unveiled last week? I doubt it. But they tried to make the best of what they were given.

CGTSX2004

iTrader: (1)

Not criticizing Lexus. More criticizing American consumers for making brand cachet such an important factor that even companies that make mediocre cars from many perspectives ::cough:MB:cough:: can still command huge premiums.

Everyone has different priorities when buying a car--some prefer luxury, others prefer sport, and other still prefer to have both. There appears to be a brand to cater to every taste so whatever works for people works for them. It is just a bad thing when brand cachet results in the clouding of one's judgment.

bradykp

ok i agree with you then. i do think MB has recovered a bit, but i am still not a fan of them. they have carried their brand equity too far for sure and they have not improved the quality enough.

in the same swing, people ignore Lincoln and Cadillacs even though they both make great quality cares with reasonable luxury levels.