evertp1

these numbers are for the 2010? what source are you getting this info from?

Engines
dohc I4 Diesel dohc I4


Size, liters/cu. in. 2.4 /144 2.2 /134


Horsepower @ rpm. 201 @ 7000 138 @ NA


Torque (lb-ft) @ rpm. 172 @ 4400 251 @ NA

http://consumerguideauto.howstuffwor...cura-tsx-3.htm

SSFTSX

In Europe TSX has three engines and almost 8 version combinations. Even the GT version. I dont see any problem with TSX in US. If u want to play in luxury field u have to give customer choice. It is not chosing econobox like Honda Fit/Civic.

Colin

If a dealer only gets 12-15 TSXs a month and you have to split this among 4 models and all the color variations, adding another two choices only makes it harder for customers to get what they want without waiting 3 months.

Also, according to you, we don't play in the luxury field. So I'm suggesting that if we don't play there, they should keep it simple(r).

myaccord

Wouldn't a V6 in the 2010 tsx put it in the same price range as the tl ? It seems to me that honda/acura would be competing against itself. I mean they already cut it close with the v6 honda accord. It just seems like the company will now have a 3 way split in competition. People who want more power already find the v6 accord to be better price wise and for more luxury , power and a higher price they go to the tl. It seems as if this would cause the tsx to fail.

Colin

A base TL cracks the 35K barrier and a tech package is getting up there. It would be nice to have a base V6 in the 32-33 range and a loaded V6 around 35ish. We wouldn't be the only ones with some model overlap (think 3 and 5 series or Maximas and Gs) and except for the inventory issues I mentioned earlier, I think it would be a good move.

CraigMacDTA

Colin, you're bang on with your points. It would take a change in philosophy for it to happen.

SSFTSX

Why would dealer receive the same 12-15 TSX per month when more engines/packages/AWD is introduced. More choices will be indication from Acura that are serioulsy investing money in TSX and will likely ramped up production for that.
Just look BMW 3 series/Audi A4/Lexus IS. they have atleast two engine choices with AWD option and packages. If Acura dont want to play in the same league they should rebadged TSX has Honda as sell it part of Honda network. they do it in Australlia. There you get 18inch rims as standard. HID with Washer/rear ventillation/front passenger 8 way power/parking sensors

Even from Australlia the give sport grill as an accessory.

http://euro.honda.com.au/optional-extras.aspx

Colin

You always throw in too much extra crap in your replies. Who says they can make more cars?

SSFTSX

why they cant available more car for US market when they are facing 40%downturn in Europe and 30% in Japan.? It is just they dont want to invest in TSX for US market to give more choices that will stimulate sells.

Colin

I don't know if they are near their production limits, but neither do you. Typically, US production is limited at 40,000 per year.

How do you know they don't want to invest in the US market? I don't know this as a fact and I sell these cars.

You know, you always state opinions as fact. You evade questions directed to you. I have never seen you accept correction gracefully or say "hey, that's a good point, I hadn't thought of that" I truly don't even understand why you post here or drive an Acura? Sorry, but I'm afraid its pointless to discuss this with you any longer.

SSFTSX

TSX introduced in 2003.
So what they have done in past 6 years?
why same limit of 40K?
There is not even a wagon version let alone diesel and 2.0 engine in US market while BMW/Audi do. It is not that they are developing anything new. It is just rebadging work.
Honda has announced 10% production cut in November on world wide basis. Sales are even down much more.
Clearly they can redirect some effort towards TSX but they havent instead put money in failed project like new TL which cannot become global car like Honda Accord. It does not fit crowded environment of Asia/EU.

H1K1F1

Oh, brother. This SSFTSX person would do well to do some fact checking. I'm quite sure that BMW has no 2.0 engine in the US market or even in the CAN market at this point, still being on their wasteful 3.0 L and above I6 kick.

It would be nice if you would stipulate the criterion or criteria to determine the TL's failure vs. success. Until you do so, you are just blowing smoke and will likely be called out on it.

SSFTSX

I mean TSX dont have 2.0L engine in US market.
I gave BMW example as they provide atleast two engines for 3 series. and 3 engines if u include M3. I am not even going into diesel than it will be 4.

TL has been in US market for two decades now. and they just provided a second engine with AWD. but it sales are on down hill and there is no chance of global success.

Luchin

Well, that's great. Since you are the Honda/Acura information hot line, any plans on SH-AWD?

(Cj)

Turbo and V6 would be a bit redundant.

They need to keep the Base I4 and a more upmarket SH-AWD model with a V6. Similar to the structure Acura has for the TL. Base model and more powerful SH-AWD model.

The simple structure would also help with inventory issues. Pricing should be kept competitive with the 3 series, C class and IS. I'd speculate that the base I4 models price will remain $29K and $32K for base tech. The SH-AWD V6 price can start at $34K and loaded for about $37K.

If Acura caps the TSX's power output at 250 hp (as Craig was told), it shouldn't cannibalize TL sales. For $34K people will have the option of the smaller less powerful (but AWD TSX) or the bigger more powerful (although FWD) TL.

(Cj)

This rumor seems highly plausible. The Pilot has one of the torquiest versions of the J35 with VCM. A lot of torque is needed in a luxury car and especially one with AWD.

For all those that say VCM "saps the torque from the motor" I say go drive a Pilot. That car is still very rich with low end torque. I imagine with premium fuel Acura can open up even more low end grunt to make the V6 TSX very competitive.

Also for them to decide to use the Pilot's torquey motor versus the Accord's confirms to me that they intend to implement AWD on the TSX.




And YES the TSX does have room for the driveshafts needed for SH-AWD.

http://www.driveaccord.net/forums/sh...&postcount=176

TSX rear (looks like it's already ready for driveshafts)

HeavyDuty

whooo psh whoooo PISH!

H1K1F1

SSFTSX's post (#93 of this thread) = an unconvincing attempt to clean up the mess that was his previous post (#91 of this thread).

Where, pray tell, was it ever mentioned by Honda/Acura or its official representatives that the current TL was intended for consumption outside of North America?

CraigMacDTA

Ummm...not sure there Lou but if you call my hotline tomorrow, I'll be able to tell you if the Yankees are going to win the world series this season. Gimme a call, it's 1-866-BLOW-BIG-GOATS.

jlukja

http://www.familycar.com/RoadTests/AcuraTL-S/


http://consumerguideauto.howstuffworks.com/2004-to-2008-acura-tl-1.htm

I recall reading a number of reviews where torquesteer was mentioned. That is why I brought it up in the first place. I'm all for more HP in the new engine as long as Acura can address the negative aspects of it. I would want the TSX to remain nimble and well balanced with more HP and not become overweight and less manageable.

Colin

Funny isn't it? I think they should put the F22C in the TSX as the option engine (not enough torque to cause torque steer), but there aren't enough 'true' enthusiasts for that option. It's ironic that so many complain that the TSX isn't the nimble car the G1 was, yet they want a V6 and an automatic. Irony is a bitch.

wackura

The 2G feels more nimble than the 1G to me because it has lighter steering and a lower center of gravity. Even though there is less precision the car changes direction much more effortlessly than before. Maybe my idea of nimble is different than others. I'd like a V6 and AWD TSX, and to those who say that's a TL, just look at them for minute. They are not and would not be the same car. The TSX would still be several thousand cheaper and potentialy a few hundred lbs. lighter.

SSFTSX

I was going through EuroAccord specification. It offers as much as RL in US.
1. Heat obsorbing tinted windows
2. Front,Corner and rear parking sensors
3. ACC (adoptive cruise, LKAS , CMBS
4. Rear lighting, Ambient foot lighting.
5.Front headlight height adjustment for EX GT
6. Sport suspension.
7 Refrigerated glove box
8 TSA. Trailer stability assist.
9 Superdead lock, interior and perimeter secuirty alarm, tilt sesnor, security integrated audio.
10. standard manufacturer warranty of 90,000 miles with exhaust and corrision warranty between 5 to 10 years. standard warranty of 3 years.
11.Aerodynamic body kit standard on GT on model.
There are other differences like organ foot pedals.

(Cj)

And it cost more too... :rollseyes:

The TSX as it is now is perfect for it's pricing segment, and I doubt that people would buy a $40K FWD 201 hp TSX even if it had all the features you listed.

iTimmy

same argument, different people. This discussion has been on going for around 5 years now and STILL no V6, I'm not going to hold my breath until Honda/Acura makes a public statement.

SSFTSX

Everything cost more in Europe and Australlia because of different Tax. thats not the point. Just loaded Honda Legend Cost 40,000pound sterling. Equal to $60K US. RL will be $53K. look at Toyota Land Cruiser. Almost $90K in UK. $20K more than US.

UK is one of few countries in EU with Right Hand Drive.
Honda Accord Sells in UK are less than TSX sales in US.
Yet UK market has more choices in custmozing the Accord than TSX in US.
It is the lack of investment in TSX from Honda that is bothering despite excellent sales for past 6 years in its segment despite very standard car. Let people decide what they want. but Honda is not offering any choice. The Most of options in TSX are now avalable for EX-L4 cylinder Accord. We are not in 2003 anymore. TSX has to be updated with time.

Colin

Agreed. SSF says that the RL (legend) is a failure and nobody buys it. If we discount this car (RL), the Accord is the 'Top of the Line' in Europe. Of course it will have things we don't have in the US.

SSFTSX

European cars are cheaper in EU compared to Japanese export. U can get decently equiped BMW 535/MB-E//Audi A6/S4 at same price as Hond legend. so chance of competing under Honda badge at that price is almost no existant.
People are expecting more in compact car now than ever before.
navigation/parkingsensors/rear camera/leather seats are now in Civic around the World. So what does Accord/TSX brings to the table.
Actually TSX is equal to European Civic in equipement.

Even Civic EX has everthing from HID to Auto headlights height/headlight Washers/bluetooth/heated seats with leather/17 inch alloys.

http://www.honda.co.uk/cars/civic5door/

GM/Ford is bringing the Euro versions of there cars in near future. Its time for Honda to do the same.
I cant beleive you justifying Honda corporate policy for US.

Colin

I can't believe that you can't see that with no Acura brand in Europe, their existing Honda models will get features reserved for the Acura line in the US.

SSFTSX

so whats the point of Acura TSX when it has lower features than Honda Civic in EU. Acura brand means it should have features that are not for Honda. there is no point of extra brand cost when Space age Civic makes TSX/RSX padestrian in 2005.
Honda Accord EX went from 160bhp(old rating) to 190bhp(one new rating) from 2003 to 2008 in US market and here 2009 TSX is linguishing.

Colin

Because you silly rabbit, we're not in the EU and the Civic does not have TSX features in the US. Enough already!

SSFTSX

You can pretty much load Civic with Leather/heated seats/Navigation /USB audio/bluetooth/VSA/heated mirrors/TPMS/brake assist/EBD in EX-L form.
Only HID lights are difference.

Just look at Civic Accessories list. they give chrome exhaust/sport maufler/sport suspension kit/17inch HFP alloys./interior illumination
http://automobiles.honda.com/civic-s...cessories.aspx

Your just not admitting that there is barely progress from 2003 to 2009 in TSX
when u compared to Accord/Civic. Lack of investment in TSX is Acura biggest mistake as BMW 3/Audi 4/MB-C/lexus IS.

(Cj)

I'm not talking about exchange rates. With the feature content you're talking about the TSX could run as high as $40 grand. Who in there right mind would buy a $40K FWD 201 hp sedan? In the US it doesn't make sense to add that feature content to the entry level TSX. I know you're probably going to say that "Well BMW offers a variety of unique features for the 1/3 series". Well even BMW has a ladder of features that they offer on there models. You can't get Active Leveling suspensions on a 3 series, and leather comes standard on 7 but not on the 3. Acura is doing the same sort of thing just on a smaller scale. I admit that they do need to add some more optional equipment on TL and RL, but the TSX is pretty good as is. An additional engine is pretty much all the TSX series needs.

Also the reason The Euro Civic and Accord have more feature content than their American equivalents is because Europeans are willing to pay more money. They don't need 300 hp but they still want a well equipped ride. That's why Honda Europe can sell a loaded 160 hp Accord for MORE money than a well equipped 201 hp TSX. Europeans are more concerned about high end features and not so much high horsepower. Americans are the opposite and that's why we hear rumors about a V6 TSX and not a TSX with CMBS.

Colin

You believe this and yet you traded in a 2006 TSX for a 2009. Either you are dumber than you sound, or you don't believe what you write. Hypocrisy (look it up) is a bitch.

SSFTSX

I am not taking about competition. Just look at Honda Fit/Civic/Accord over the past 5 years period. they are constanly improving with more features and engine options. Who would have thought 270bhp on 17/18inch rims Accord just 6 years ago or Civic with leather heated seats/mirror/autoheadlights. or new Fit constanly adding things.
Navigation/rearview camera/bluetooth. these are no longer novelty. So TSX should not think it is well equiped. TSX is stuck with 17inch since 2003.
There are so manythings that needs improvement not just engine alone. Prices of electronics have substantially decreased. The price of navigation system in 2003 was completely different than what is in 2009. So no justification of price increase with additional features.

SSFTSX

i traded because i got good price for my trade. The dealer have more inventory of new compared to Old. and it is the dealer mantra that all new cars should be inside (protect from Sun/acid rain/bird drops) and used cars outside. so some thing has to be changed. (Actually they didnot expect TL sale collapse or the big size of TL taking more space than previous small TSX/TL).
U cannot fit the same amount of car in covered space.

Colin

But why trade if the car hasn't improved? Big size of the TL? Its 6 inches longer. This means that if they have 32 TLs, with the old car, they could have fit 33 in the same space. BFD.

(Cj)

Well the competition is what matters not the Fit/Civic/Accord. The TSX has progressed steadily throughtout it's lifecycle and the 2nd gen has more features than ever. If you dont believe me read Acura's own press release:

http://www.hondanews.com/categories/740/releases/4419

Also the TSX hasn't really had a price increase. The prices only went up a few hundred bucks, so why would you expect anything significantly better? The 3 series's price has gone up more within one generation than the TSX's price has gone up with a whole model change. Where feature and content are concerned compared to an Accord the TSX ha quite a few more features and is simply a better car. The fit and finish are leaps and bounds better, and the TSX looks better (of course that's subjective). People don't complain or talk about the fact that the Accord EX-L even has more than a base 3 series (and even the base 5 series). The TSX is just fine as is (at least for the base model). I'm sure the SH-AWD model will have more features (similar to the base TL versus the SH-AWD TL).

SSFTSX

i get new tires with new cars and extra warranty and less maintiance price for next two to three years. essentially no brake job. There is alot of reasons for refreshing the car as a better investment alternative.
There is improvement in NVH levels with improved accelaration with real time traffic (but it is on my Verizon phone now so doesnot make that much difference for SF bay).
They had a problem as TSX/TL both has increased in size. so the space isnt that much much.
but look at what is happening to RL/TL/MDX
RL bhp increased from 225 to 300 (on new rating) from 2003 to 2008.
TL increased from 258 to 280/300 (on new ratings) from 2004 to 2009.
MDX increase from 240 to 300 bhp .
So Acura just like Honda has history of improving things with time. It is TSX that is stuck at 2003 with featurs/engine. they also increased the price from $28K 2004 model to $32K 2009 model.
but u still refuse to see this reality.

(Cj)

Acura didn't have many choices when it came to the next TSX. The TSX's formula is high handling high revving light weight sporty sedan compared to the more luxury and power orientation of the the TL. The I4 powerplant that the TSX has, has reached it's limit, so all they could do is refresh the current engine. The only option that they had was to add another engine to the line so they could still offer light weight high handling plus a more powerful option.

The reason Acura couldn't launch both TSXs at the same time was because dealers still had to sell 2008 TLs. So Acura's decision to delay the launch of the V6 TSX was wise and well thought out. The V6 will be the significant improvement you and others have been looking for in the TSX.