Freaknic713

well i lower my 03 tl s and i been having debating on which camber kit should i get? i got dropzone springs wit tokicos blues and yeah i know is a shitty set up but it works 4 me mostly on the . how can i calculate how much adjustment degree range should i need? i was suppose to get a 2.25' drop but i know is more than that now. well here is a pic just in case

FirePR2002

an alignment should tell you how far off spec you are. have you had it done since lowering your car? you could also buy a tool that would give you the angle of the wheel - can't remember its name though.

03tLsNBP

iTrader: (9)

hows the ride on those springs?

friesm2000

iTrader: (4)

camber kit needed; not really if you don't mind the tire wear, but the biggest thing as far a getting a kit, would be a rear one, and normally the one considered the best would be the ingall's, very easy to adjust especially when the car is sitting up on a alignment rack

rcb2000

well in this case it's obvious that there is much more negitive camber in the front compared to the rear so personally I would be inclinded to do the front, but then if your not worried about the wear in the front why the fuck worry about the rear wear, doesn't make one bit of since to me.

I prefer to opperate a car with the alignment done correctly and that's zero degrees camber on the front and maybe 1/16 positive in the back depending on ride height relative to the linkage of the suspension and the effect weight would have on the rear suspension, so that might be a negitive 1/16, this all depends on ride height of the car.

friesm2000

iTrader: (4)

FYI, the factory specs call for 0.5 degrees of negetive camber in the back (or -0°30' ±1° to be more exact, and don't forget there are only 60 minutes in a degree)

gold2003tl (90)

i think depending on the year model, rear camber is more from the factory. Im an 03, and after lowering i have about -1.8 degrees ish in the back. B&G kit claims it lowers about 1.6R and 1.75F i think, pretty sure its slightly lower than that.

friesm2000

iTrader: (4)

roughly lowered the same amount , and before i put on the ingall's front arms, i was only like 0.7 and 1.1 up front, and i wanted it to more even (and adjustable too) so i got them


and tire wear even before that was not that bad at all

rcb2000

not quite right there slick,

front spec zero degrees zero minutes plus or minus one degree ( 0°00' ±1° )

Rear spec negitive zero degrees thirty minutes plus or minus thirty minutes ( -0°30' ± 30' )

the negitve number in the rear is for a reason and since you've dropped it you've changed the geometery and thus the base setting for the rear needs to change to correct the issue.

personally I would set the front at zero, the rear would actaully be set positive a shade since lowering it changes the normal effect cargo or person would have on the rear suspension so it has to be address differently, but what the hell who gives a shit about having the alignment correct you can live with the tire wear, I choose to make my tires last as long as they can running excessive camber in either direction reduces the tread life of the tire so you do something that you know is detrimental to the tire, you do what the hell you want, I'm not going to run mine that way or any one else's that I would align.

Mista Juice

iTrader: (7)

you cant really tell from the angle the OPs pic which end has more negative camber actually.. my car, however, has more negative camber in the rear after i lowered it to the level i wanted at with my teins.. just throwin that out there..

FirePR2002

^^mine was the same. most on this site have echoed this as well.

rcb2000

you might not be able to see it with your untrained eye, but that doesn't mean I can't.

in all actuallity camber kits need added front and rear so that you can properly align the car, but so many here want to half ass it and say hey live with the tire wear, to me that's way half assed and cheap, if your going to lower then buy all the pieces and if your too damn cheap to buy the parts that have the camber adjustments built into the strut plate then you should at least get the adjustable ball joint in the control arm and the rear camber kit along with the cheaper struts but getting the better struts is by far cheaper in the long run. But there is always a right way to do something and a wrong way, it's just sad so many half ass it and then start spread bullshit that it's ok don't worry about the alignment tires are cheap you don;t need the camber kit they are still within factory specs, fucking idiots if you ask me, In my book the owner is a fool if they think it's all right to drop it and not add camber kits that's their choice. I would never do that to my car or any other car and once it's lowered the adjustments would be set at zero and negitive on the rear if the ride height was such that it interduced positve camber when loaded, if it interduced negitive camber when loaded then it would be zero to slightly postive so that it would not interduce more than a half degree negitive camber in the rear. But hey I like my tires to wear evenly and last and not burn up the inside or outside edges exposing the belts because you half assed the alignment.

Mista Juice

iTrader: (7)

good lord man.. get over yourself.. i simply stated that from the angle the pic is taken its harder to tell..

FirePR2002

i'm lowered slightly more than 2" all the way around. camber kits on rear only. both front and rear are within factory spec as per the print-out from the shop that did my alignment. that tells me it is not needed on the front - don't you agree? why buy the part when it isn't needed?

friesm2000

iTrader: (4)

and as said before front is not mandatory, but is nice to have though

nf3d0149ab

iTrader: (5)

In my experience, the priority for lowered cars are for the rear camber first if you can't purchase both simultaneously.

Various kits have different correction ranges so an alignment is the first step.

Just passing along some info because I just went through this very same thing about a month ago.

rcb2000

the tolerance on the front is plus or minus a degree about the same for all manufacturers, so yes it might be within factory specs if it is at one degree odds are it's more, but then at that setting it will still wear the inside edge of the tire out and expose the belts long before the actual tire's tread is below the wear bars and needs replaced. So in reality no it isn't good enough but again if you like replacing tires knock your socks off and enjoy the pull. I just love all you tools that have all the answers but with the exception of maybe one, you have never actually ever been responsible for performing and adjusting the alignment any any make of vehicle or know the in's and out's and what is good and what is bad in regards to suspensions and alignments, one degree camber is way out but fuck it tear your shit up I don't care. The added camber stress' so many other parts in the front end running that low or high of a camber setting, you tools must think that fuck the F1 guys tires are all running negitive camber why the fuck can't I, because the car was never designed to run that much or are you loading the suspension in corners constantly and why the negitive camber is there in the first place, but hey go for it.

I'm very aware how generous factory specs can be and how foolish people can be, maybe it's right in your mind, but I can walk in to a shop here and ask ten other mechanic's and all of them will agree with me, but then they are actually repairing cars daily for a living unlike most here. I must be stupid after doing alignments for so many years and not once did I compare the camber setting to teh factory specs they all were set at zero like they should be if you want your car to handle properly on a daily bases.

rcb2000

that a fools perspective, if you don't have the cash to buy the parts require then don't half ass it, but so many prefer to half ass it.

nf3d0149ab

iTrader: (5)

FirePR2002

easy with the name calling, man - I never attacked you or called you names or said you were stupid or to get you butt-hurt. act like an adult and let's have an adult conversation. you're making some pretty big assumptions. on my last set of tires, I got about 55K miles out of softer compound performance tires - that's pretty good wouldn't you agree? there was even wear across the entire tread pattern - no more or less on the outside versus the inside. my car is daily driven between 50-100 miles. i brake pretty hard and oftentimes corner hard. and i rotate them at every oil change (7,500 miles give or take a couple hundred miles), so these tires have been rotated 7 times. i know it hurts to hear, but you're wrong in this particular case.

phee

iTrader: (5)

some of this is good info. most of it seems like youre pretty angry.

ive had my car lowered for years and have never had camber issues. im always within the tolerances during alignment. camber doesnt wear tire prematurely as much as an incorrectly set toe-adjustment would.

for the op: i recommend you get your specs check and go from there. looks like you have above -2 degrees camber in the rear so you will need a kit. although our camber isnt adjustable back there, adjusting other aspects of the suspension can help relieve the camber.

rcb2000

not angry at all just don't agree with the typical attitude regarding alignments as a whole on here, which is a typical tire store mentallity, it's within factory specs.

to me that is the biggest copout around, the reason they do that is because they can get away with out aligning the car properly and charge you as if it was aligned, they will then center the wheel and set toe and through you out the door fifteen minutes later freeing up the bay to work on another vehicle and steal another persons money the same way.

Only vehicles I ever let go out the door after an alignment that were not set to zero degrees of camber are chevette's and twin i-beam ford trucks, chevettes your hands were tied on how much you could change them, on the trucks it's really hard to judge how much you bent the beam so trying to get them to zero was pure luck on an educated level, so once you got it within a weak quart degree pos to zero and never on the negitive side you moved on.

the correct thing to do is give the customer the option and inform them that to align the car correctly you'll need camber kits if it is out and then quote them a price and let them make a decision, before you ever put the car on the rack, and explain to them what can be changed if they don't opt for the kits which is toe only on this model. Yes toe will wear faster than camber, but are you using a tread depth gauge to determind wear or your untrained eye? I'm guessing the latter, are you comparing where the round of the edge starts and comparing it to the otherside, so what might look good to you would look horrible to me but I doubt you or the vast majority here have ever done an alignment and been responcible for making the corrections.

It makes no since to me well you drop the car and you all agree that you have to add camber kits to the rear but all of you fools ignor the front and say it's within factory specs, set the damn car at a degree positive on one side and then a degree negitive on the other and see how straight the car goes down the road because it's within factory specs but you let go of the wheel and the damn thing will dive the direction of the postive camber, so is that right, thought you wanted the car aligned so it doesn't pull isn't that the main reason for an alignment in the first place? But fuck sorry sir it must be the tires causing the pull because it's within factory specs here look that's what my computer tells me said the shop, sorry not how it works.

friesm2000

iTrader: (4)

, iirc they make adjustable ball joint for those, and if they are out of spec, normally the ride height is not perfect (and if you go lifted, you go the ball joint route)


done quite a few myself actually (and i have mentioned to them if they want it perfect, they gotta get the adjust ability in it)


and for camber, i look for it still within specs (even maybe a little out, depending on how bad), but also relatively still even from side to side though (preferably less then half a degree, and absolutely no more then a degree)

Excelerate

iTrader: (1)

I'd recommend the Ingalls camber kits. The rear kit has two arms per side to adjust toe and camber.

rcb2000

hhhuuuummmmm not sure what your talking about all ford trucks with twin I-beam suspensions used king pins no ball joints to replace or adjust, now the GM 4-wheel drive trucks had replacable bushings that the ball joint was inserted into and the hole in the bushing was offset x amount to allow camber adjustment, but for the most part there are no adjustments other than toe on almost all older 4x4's before they started using CV joints in the front suspension of the 4x4's now as far as the ride height that does't come into play either unless it's a late model that uses torsion bars inplace of springs on the front suspensions, common on early front wheel drive GM's from the seventy's, rivi's, eldarodo's, toronado's, and then the later model trucks too but that is the first thing that is checked and adjusted before you ever through the gauge on to check camber.

friesm2000

iTrader: (4)

fine then, adjustable/turnable bushings instead....

timberland73

iTrader: (1)

I don't see what the big deal is. When I had my car lowered, I bought both front and rear kits because that's what made since to me. Why wouldn't you buy both kits?

FirePR2002

because in my specific case, the fronts were/are not needed ~ at all.

rcb2000

some people just dont care to do it right and live with the tire wear and think a negitive 1 degree of camber is fine, they are so miss guided or just cheap maybe.