My 00 TL has 169,000 miles. If I run a few errands and stop and start car often in a short period of time it does not stay running. It needs to sit for about 20 minutes before it will start and keep running. Check engine light comes on and code is a random misfire and key ignition switch. Anyone else experience this problem? Did find one coil that was burned last time it had this problem, changed the coil and was good for a while. Starting again. Just wondering if anyone else has had this issue. Thank you.

 

have you replaced the ignition switch if it's problematic again then perhaps a coil is bad once more seeing as the last time you had this issue that was the resolution.

 

I have the same problem with my 2000 TL that has 188K miles. The problem started a few years ago. Replaced ignition switch cable, main relay 2 years ago, recently replaced spark plugs, TB gasket, valve cover gasket, lower manifold gasket with all Honda OEM parts, cleaned the IAC value (even though it looked clean), and changed battery and alternator, but the issue still persists. There are no codes, no CEL, no nothing. After three short stops, engine can start but stalls right away. Have to let the engine coil down for 30 to 45 minutes before I can drive it again. Recently replaced coolant temperature sensor and PCV valve/grommet. When turning the key to ON position, I can hear the shirt, soft sound that fuel pump makes, so it seems fuel pump is not culprit. When I changed the spark plugs last week, I noticed two ignition coils' mating rubber materials that function as cushion between coil and valve cover have cracks, but no misfires so I don't plan to change them for now. Don't know what is causing the stalking problem and what I need to do next.

 

Rogers8717, If you have another coil you can swap it around to see if the problem goes away but the other comments below still apply.

DBL and Rogers8717, Have either of you overheated? have you replaced the engine thermostat? have you ever replaced your fuel filter? Have you check fuel pressure? Can you post all the OBDII data? Haven't run into this exact issue, someone must have had this happen.

 

Jon, I have not done any of those you mentioned.

Here's the data reported by my scanner.

 

Jon, I had a radiator cap failure once, and as a result, the engine overheated briefly, but the stalling problem started a few years prior to the overheating event.

Another weird thing is that the engine cooling fan has a tendency to kick in whenever the engine stops after a trip even a short trip with ambient temp around 75F, but the needle on the coolant temperature gauge on the dash points the middle in the process, never too high.

Also, the upper water hose can be too hot to touch after some idling from a cold start, but the bottom water hose is not, and I can touch it or hold it with my bare hands.

Last time when I was burping the cooling system, it took forever, more than 30 or 40 minutes, for the cooling fan to kick in.

Do you think I should replace the thermostat and cooling fan sensor as well? Thanks.

 

DBL,

Looking at the OBDII data there are a few items that to me seem questionable. Going through each reading below:

DTC_CT = 0 means there are no reported error codes.

FUELSYSA =CL means that the fuel system is using the ECU to control the air/fuel mixture. This is how it should be.

LOAD_PCT(%) = 26.7 this is the calculated load value based on the MAP reading which at idle should be around the barometric pressure where you live.

ECT(C) =105 this is the engine coolant temperature, in this case in Celsius (C), in F it would be 221. To me this is high although at the top of the spec for the radiator and the fans should be on at this point. I would expect to see 190F-200F.

SHRTFT1(%) = 10.2 This is the short term fuel trim. Ideally this would be +/- 5% but over 10 indicates an issue. This number can go from -20 to +20. A reading of -20 would indicate that the ECU is trying to reduce fuel input trying to lean out the mix. A reading of +20 would indicate that the ECU is trying to enrich the mixture as there is too much air in the mix. This fuel trim is used for short term fuel needs due to immediate differences in loads, such as climbing a hill.

LONGFT1 (%) = 10.9 This is the long-term fuel trim. It is the same as above but changes slower. It is stored and used when the car is shut off and later started. The same explanation above applies.

MAP (kPA) = 26 this is generically the barometric pressure of the location. You can look this up online at a weather site for your location.

RPM (rpm) = 674 This is obvious. 674 is a toward the low side but ok.

VSS (km/h) = 0. Obviously, the car is not moving. Vehicle speed.

SparkAdv = 9.5 Timing reading in degrees. Looks fine.

IAT(C) = 59 degrees C (138F). This is the Intake Air Temperature. When the car is cold the IAT and ECT should be close to each other within a few degrees.

TP(%) = 9.8%. This is the throttle position sensor and at idle it should be around 10%.

O2S11(V) = .115v. This should be the first O2 sensor (before the catalytic converter). The readings should be a square wave but unless you have a graphing unit you will see a number that is taken at a moment in time. You should see it changing. Ideally the average would be around .45V over time.

O2S12(V) = .075v. This is the second O2 sensor (after the cat).

My thoughts and maybe other people have more, is that from all that you replaced and from what I think is a high temperature reading the thermostat could need replacing. It is not hard but it does mean you will lose antifreeze. If you haven’t replaced the hoses in the last 3 years, I would replace them at the same time. The top hose should be hotter than the bottom hose as that is the function of the radiator, however if the top hose is extremely hotter the thermostat may not be opening up all the way I would then recheck the OBDII readings.

 

Jon, thank you for your detailed diagnosis. The coolant temp was high for sure because I got a snapshot of the live data 30 or 40 minutes into bleeding air out of the radiator. But, I'll replace the thermostat, which has never been changed. I have no idea on what can cause fuel trim numbers not ideal. Could that be caused by fuel injectors, and subpar O2 sensors? Do I need to clean the MAP sensor?
I want to do a full engine coolant replacement when I replace the thermostat. The service manual says that a coolant drain bolt in the back of the engine block needs to be hooked up with a hose first before loosening it. Do you happen to know what internal diameter hose can work for this purpose? Thanks again.

 

Fuel Trim numbers are not bad just at the high end but if you have a malfunctioning thermostat it could affect those numbers so I wouldn't be concerned now but you are correct that the fuel injectors, O2 sensors, etc. can all effect the fuel trims, The high reading on the coolant temp is what I would be looking at, I would do the thermostat and then maybe the sensor. I wouldn't worry about the MAP sensor. The barometric pressure changes dependent on the local weather. You can clean it if you want but use the stuff made for it or MAF sensors.
I never have use that coolant bolt. I just drained the radiator, put in some more coolant, ran the car, drained the radiator again, then filled it up. A bit lazy on my part so I can't tell you the diameter.

 

I hope replacing the thermostat can fix the stalling issue for me. Some suggest the IAC valve needs to be replaced, but mine is definitely clean and the spindle inside can spin freely without any issues, and besides, that is a really pricey thing to replace because Acura wants $261 before tax and shipping for it. If a new thermostat can solve my stalling issues, that'll be great. Thanks again, Jon.

 

Jon, there's another thing I forgot to ask you earlier. On two of my ignition coils, the rubber ring on the top end of the coil has some cracks and even a small portion of the ring is missing. This is the rubber ring mates with valve cover or seals the coils when the coil is fastened to the cover. Do you think the cracks on the rings can cause vacuum leaks at all? Is that the culprit for the stalling issue? Thanks again.

 

DBL,
The rubber seals are there to prevent oil from leaking and junk from getting into the spark plug opening. On other cars I have found oil in the tube going to the spark plug because of a bad seal in the valve cover, There shouldn't be any real vacuum in the valve cover (crankcase), there is an engineering discussion over vacuum around the piston rings. If there is a high vacuum the car would probably stall if there was a sudden change in vacuum to the intake.
Causes of a high vacuum in the valve cover is poor circulation, blocked air intake, bad PCV valve.

 

Some google search shows this hot engine installing issue is rather common on 2000 Honda Accord V6, which shares pretty much the same engine with the TL. In 2000, Honda issued a service bulletin on the so-called "Hot Soak" issue. Their fix is rather quite expensive: replacement of both Fuel Pressure Regulator and PCM.

While some people have fixed the issue by replacing the fuel rails from Honda Odyssey or Acura CL and fuel pressure regulator, some others fixed it simply disconnect the vacuum line from the manifold to the fuel pressure regulator for a month or two while they still drive the car. Of course, they use another vacuum hose with a seal to stop vacuum leak on the manifold, and then add fuel injector cleaners to the fuel. My question is whether or not such a simple solution will damage the fuel injectors.

 

DBL,
I have seen a few old threads concerning this but have not run into this problem and haven't seen any recent post about it (although these cars are older now). The problem described in the bulletin seems to be difference than what I thought you are going through. You described your problem as you can't start the car for 30-45 minutes after the car has been run and "hot soaked", the bulletin apply to cars that have run for 15 -20 minutes and starting is hard with a lot of cranking and stalling then it goes. I would stick with the thermostat etc. first as it is cheaper, easier, and in my opinion more likely as a thermostat that gets stuck, fully or partially will hold hot coolant in and could cause the starting issue as the ECU registers it as too hot. I my be out to lunch but that is what I would try first.

I doubt the fuel injectors would be damaged. The vacuum assists in opening the Fuel Pressure Regulator (FPR which is a valve) mostly at idle when the vacuum is high. The open valve allows fuel to flow back into the tank, lowering the fuel pressure at the rails during idle. When accelerating the vacuum is low and the fuel pressure at the rails is higher as the regulator valve essentially shuts off as more fuel is needed at the rails. Overall the vacuum assists the FPR to smooth out the opening and closing of the valve (overcoming the internal spring pressure).

Does the can't start symptom care if the car is on level ground, does going uphill have any affect?

 

Jon, Honda blames the stalling on the ethanol vaporization in the fuel rails when the engine is hot, which explains why some 2000 Accord owners have had the same stalling issue that I have with my TL. It doesn't matter what type of terrain I park the car. It can stall right in my garage or any level ground as it can stall on any unleveled parking surface. Perhaps my switching to use regular gasoline since 2008 has something to do with it. I just recently learned the sad fact that regular gasoline contain much more percentage of ethanol and foaming agents than premium gas does. So I need to switch back to premium gas for sure. Per your suggestion, I am going to replace the thermostat and water hoses soon. Also, I feel I need to clean all the fuel injectors as well. If cleaning them can't solve the issue, the next stop will be to replace the FPR.

 

DBL, Don't know where you live or what brand of gas you purchase. Generally the Acura's perform better with a higher octane gas which is usually blended better with high antiknock (anti-premature combustion) compounds. My understanding is the all the gas comes in 3 ethanol concentrations, E10, E15, and E85. The number is the percentage of Ethanol. I have also read that since Ethanol has an octane rating of 100 and when mixed with gasoline is even higher, that premium may have even more ethanol than regular. I guess the brand decides. At least this theory is easy to test.
Let us know how it goes.

 

Premium definitely contains more anti-knock agents (octane boosters). Ethanol is actually quite tame compared to what else is used to raise the octane; olefins leave gum and varnish deposits on fuel injectors and carburetors--if you've ever seen a picture, it's clearly petroleum-based), and aromatics (benzene--scary, toluene, ethylbenzene, and xylene) are very powerful solvents. The aromatics are what is responsible for attacking plastic and rubber components. The actual fuel is the same across grades. Ethanol does, however, attract water. If the vehicle has been sitting for awhile, you can easily end up sucking in watery ethanol and not much gasoline. It does mix as you go, but it's still a potential problem.
FWIW, we have always run regular and been fine as long as we don't drive too far in one day. YMMV

 

A bit confused here. Are you saying the regular is better to fuel Injectors?

 

I had all coils and plugs replaced now. Car ran great for about a month and is now doing that random stalling and hard to start after running errands and starting and stopping the car. No lights are on. Had the ETC, EGR, O2 sensor and fuel injectors cleaned back in 2018. Waiting on mechanic having time to take a look at it for me. Thenonly thing I have not changed yet is the fuel pressure regulator but if I do that I read that I then have to change the PCM. I think the PCM is the computer and expensive, might not be worth it for a car that is 22 years old. with 170,000. Not sure yet what to do.

 

did replace the ignition switch back in 2018

 

when mine started doing this in 2018 we changed the ETC and that fixed the problem until this year.

 

I had all coils and plugs changed 2 months ago, car ran great until now. Never overheated, thermostat was replaced back in 18, fuel pressure checked by mechanic in 18 also and was good. The fuel filter was also replaced. I don't have the data because I bring the car to my mechanic, I do not do the repairs. The only thing that worked the longest was when he changed the ETC back in 2018. I am at wits end with this issue. Can't trust the car. The only time it will stay running when it does this is if I keep my foot on the gas pedal all the way to the floor. Once I get it driving it's fine about 2 blocks later.

 

No, you don't need to replace the PCM if you replace the FPR with the exact same type FPR. You only need to replace your PCM when you install one with capability to handle large pressure.

​​​​​​A YouTuber had fixed the installing issue on his 2000 Accord by disconnecting the vaccum line from the FPR to the manifold for a few weeks. You need to make sure you seal the vaccum line on the manifold so there won't be any leaks. Also, he used premium or pure gas while adding fuel injector cleaners in the fuel. After a few weeks, the installing can go away.

 

Okay good to know, thank you so much. Now let's hope my mechanic knows to replace the FPR with the same exact one and hope that this fixes the issue once and for all.

 

I alwsy use premium gas in the car. Let's hope the FPR change does the trick. Thank you for your help

 

Jon,

I replaced the thermostat and another ECT and cooling fan switch switches, along with water hoses, last week with Honda factory parts.

​​​​​​Yes, there's a issue with the 22-year-one, the rubber gasket on the pointy head has become disintegrated. After the replacement, I switched to pure 87 gasoline (without any ethanol added). So far, the car seems not having the installing issue anymore. But, perhaps the weather is not hot. I have to wait and see.

Another thing is that both the short-term trim and long-term trim numbers are getting better after putting in the pure 87 gas. Attached before and after readings here.

 

DBL,
Great! There was some discussion concerning the gas and it may be a contributing factor; so I an wondering if you are up for a short experiment. You can try using the gas station you were previously buying at and see if it makes a difference, as this was put forth due some vehicles with a hot soak issue, if the problem was mostly the thermostat being block it would have increase the temperature of the engine by not allowing the full flow of coolant which could lead to a hot soak type of issue. In any case, best of luck with the car with many miles of safe driving.