Montaigne

I've posted about this problem in the past. Here's a brief history of the problem and what I've done so far:

2000 TL w/ 129,000 miles

When it's cold out and the engine is cold or recently started, the car will literally try and surge forward when I'm at a stop with the transmission in drive and my foot on the brake. Additionally, it's started to have a problem when I'm taking off from a stop that the engine will suddenly not react to me pushing on the pedal. If I keep the pedal steady, after a few seconds the engine catches up to where it should be and I don't have the problem again. If I mash down on the pedal the car will sputter and almost die, but if I let off it seems to catch up to the rpms it should be at for where my foot is on the pedal. I hope that all makes sense. It's been doing it for probably 10-12k miles (I put a lot of miles on my cars in a short amount of time) and both problems are intermittent.

Here's what I've done:
Cleaned EGR and Intake Manifold (119k)
New 02 Sensors (120k)
New Air Filter (125K)
Seafoamed (125k)
Cleaned Throttle Body and IACV, and replaced throttle body gaskets (127k)
Spark Plugs (oem ngk replacements 128k)
New Throttle Body Assy which included TPS, IACV, etc. (Last Night, %$#%#%. ) from Delray Acura. New gaskets with the throttle body.

Now, having done all of the above my gas mileage has immensely improved to around 330-350 miles per tank in normal commuting and my throttle response has improved. Nonetheless, the surging is driving me nuts and I figure it has to be affecting performance. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Montaigne

One other thing. It's not throwing a CEL.

fsttyms1

Thats a hard one. It could be a small vacuum leak, it could be the ECU, it could be the trans. You have done most every thing there is to have been done. You may want to bring it to the dealer to diagnose. They can swap ecu's and see if that solves it.

Montaigne

Thanks, Kris. The idle isn't high so I don't know what it could be. The tranny was replaced with a post 05 at 90k.

Montaigne

Okay, started googling the problem. This guy is describing it perfectly.
http://www.odyclub.com/forums/showth...threadid=35783

Thoughts on an odyssey having the similar problem and the solution being the power steering sensor connector?

I checked on the diagrams and we have one,
http://www.acuraoemparts.com/delray/..._SENSOR_ASSY.#

01tl4tl

reviewing your work and mileage time, the egr-intake cleaning occured at the same time as the new surge?
Some members have re-installed the upper intake manifold gasket upside down- its possible to do- the upper gasket- not the one under all the stuff

Montaigne

Unfortunately, the surge was before the intake / egr cleaning. I did that after talking to the dealership. They gave me a print out explaining the problem.

I basically started with the cheapest to the most expensive with the exception being the 02 sensors.

Montaigne

Well, I took the tl in to the dealer. They had it for 4 days and couldn't figure out what the problem is, and couldn't get it to have an idle problem. They literally said, "Wait till it gets worse and it throws a light." Lovely.

So I pick it up, shell out my diagnostic fee (they did look at some other things, so I wasn't too pissed about it), drive through their parking lot, and stop at the exit to wait for traffic to by when the car proceeds to surge forward a bunch. Go figure. I throw it into reverse to go grab some tech guy and the car dies. I restart it, drive it back through the parking lot and by the time I get through the parking lot to the service door, it's not doing it. #(%)#(%*@(). Thankfully I had somebody with me so I know I'm not crazy.

So, rather than give Acura more money for their tech guys, I might as well start replacing parts. I'll keep you all posted. I'm thinking temp sensors or valves first around the throttle body since it does it only when it is cold.

Montaigne

Do we have anything like the FITV on the TL?
/forums/f74/idle-problems-65025/

Montaigne

sorry :
/forums/f74/idle-problems-65025/

Montaigne

What? I can't post a link to w w w . a c u r a w o r l d . c o m /forums/f74/idle-problems-65025/

fsttyms1

In your 2nd link all that is is the speed sensor for adjusting your variable assist steering. It wouldn't be causing surging. There is no electrical connectors on that and all it does is change the speed of the PS fluid going across the pump.

OH, If people wanted slightly heavier steering and better feel they can bypass it with a barb and connect the 2 lines together

Montaigne

03-28-2008, 9:46 AM
3.2TLc
Registered User
Post #31
Join Date: Oct 2007
Age: 41
Posts: 34 "surging"

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Originally Posted by Montaigne
I'm dropping mine off at the dealer tonight and they get it for the weekend. Hopefully on Monday or Tuesday I'll have a cure to my issues:

- Intermittent surging forward at a stop with the trans is in Drive. If it's going to happen it will be in the first 15 minutes or so of driving and usually when it's cooler out.

Reply from 3.2TLc :
If the surging is more prevalent when the engine's still cool, possibly the coolant's thermosensor (ECT) or IAT is not functioning ideally ? Hopefully the dealer can diagnose this problem without gouging your wallet too badly ! Good luck and let us know how well they did.




fsttyms1,
Is the ECT or the IAT similar to the FITV described in the acura world link? It seems what they are describing makes perfect sense with the problem I am experiencing in cold weather and the initial warm up.

remikinz

iTrader: (4)

My 96 Civic did the same exact thing! Have you checked the air control valve? they are notorious for crapping out on hondas! I was starting to think my civic was just possessed lmao. Let me know if thats the problem!

mweber36

OK guys, I’m going to add my two cents into this thread because my 02 TL (w/123K miles) has the very same frustrating symptom and problem as Montaigne has. Did Honda intentionally add some kind of magical Blue Smoke Bomb, set to go off at ±120K miles?

Much like Montaigne, here is my saga. I also have a very frustrated local mechanic, who specializes in import vehicle repair, totally baffled.

I won’t repeat the symptom that Montaigne has already posted, but mine is identical.

Here is the ever growing list of fixes that I have tried:

1) Changed plugs to some Bosch Fusion (4 point) plugs (first mistake!).
2) Replaced the O2-1 sensor (eliminating my DTC O2-1 sensor code).
3) Replaced the PCV valve (just because it was simple).
4) Read threads on ACURAZINE about cleaning the Idle Air Control (IAC) valve solution. Tried to clean mine with no impact. So replaced with new and still no change.
5) Yes, I always disconnect the battery terminal so the Powertrain Control Module (PCM) can relearn the new configuration of parts.

Finally took my car to my local mechanic. He had it for a whole week and he thought he had the problem licked.

Here is the list of his diagnostics:

1) First he found that two of the EGR intake ports were totally plugged. He cleaned out all of the ports.
2) Tested the injectors, ignition coils and fuel pressure. All of which were within Honda specified ratings.
3) He then narrowed it down to needing a valve job. He really thought that he had it fixed at that point after he drove the car and parked it, until I came to pick up my car. I started it from a cold start, moved it 50 feet and the problem was still there.
4) When I left him that day (I really needed my car at that point) he was pulling his hair out. His only passing thoughts, as I walked out the door, were to pursue replacing the PCM.

My list continues:

1) Changed plugs to NGK Iridium IX plugs. This eliminated my Diagnostic Trouble Code [DTC] misfire codes (P0300, P0301-P0306 and P1399).
2) After reading the lengthy thread on ACURAZINE about the Deep Creep/Sea Foam solution, I tried that. One can of Deep Creep in the vacuum port of the throttle body and two cans of Sea Foam in a ½ tank of fuel. All it did was to create a lot of carbon smoke and gave me a thrill ride. However, I did notice that the last two times that I have had the throttle body removed from the intake plenum, that there was a puddle of Deep Creep at the entrance to the plenum. Yes, I did preheat the engine with a 12 mile drive before adding the Deep Creep. During this process I got a few new DTC codes, P0170 Fuel Trim Malfunction (Bank 1) and P0171 System Too Lean (Bank 1). After the burn-down and most of the ½ tank of fuel gone, I cleared these codes and they have not come back.
3) After seeing more threads on ACURAZINE I replaced the Idle Air Temp (IAT) sensor and then the EGR valve. I thought these recommendations had merit and were very logical potential solutions. However, no solution in either of these cases.
4) I’ve also carefully and thoroughly cleaned out throttle body. Clean as a whistle now.
5) Yes, I always disconnect the battery terminal so the PCM can relearn the new configuration of parts.

This is where I stand today. The car really purrs nicely after it warms up but the problem still persists. It not only does this at the first cold start but also after short trips, returning to the car after 10-30 minutes.

Before I consider a PCM replacement I’m asking for further thoughts from anyone? Also, does anyone have any experience with DIY PCM replacement? My Honda written service manual states that: “On vehicles equipped with Immobilizer (anti-theft) system, PCM must be reprogrammed using a Honda PGM tester.” Something to do with the immobilizer receiver sending power to the transponder in the ignition key. How easy is this to program without the Honda PGM tester? Is it as simple as the PCM relearn using my ignition key?

Any input would be greatly appreciated.

Montaigne

Mweber,

I wish I had an update for you with a solution. Mine still has the idle problem.

The other "interesting" thing mine does happens occasionally on acceleration and in any weather (hot or cold). While accelerating from a stop at a low to modest throttle (i.e. I'm not stepping on it), the engine will suddenly stop revving according to the throttle level. It's as if I suddenly put the car in neutral and let the engine idle, but my foot is still on the gas. After a second or two, the engine will rev up again in gear and the car jerks forward. If instead of keeping my foot steady on the gas, I stomp on it, the car will sputter and die or sputter and come roaring back.

I'm not sure if it is related, but I also suspect my steering rack (or some steering component) to be going out. Despite replacing every suspension part (I'm not kidding) the steering is loose at high speeds and the tire shop can't get the car aligned. Very strange.


Anyway, I suspect some electrical component tied in to the idle, transmission, and possibly the steering is causing the problem. Does your TL display any of the other issues I mentioned beside the surge at idle?

totaledTL

Montaigne-

Concerning the alignment issue- I had a similar problem (not with an Acura) but a V6 FWD Mazda. The tire shop insisted it was aligned (in spite of the fact I had in their shop 3 times) but it would still pull to the right out on the highway. I had to take it to a specialty front end shop and they fixed it. Best I recall (been a few years) some 'assembly' in the front end had shifted slightly. Hope this puts you on track to a solution for that problem.

fsttyms1

Never heard of a "FITV " issue. I cant get your link to work. That site is blocked here.

LIke i said earlier, you may want to bring it in to the dealer. They have the means to test live data and swap ECUs to see if thats the issue. Only other things i can see it being is a TPS sensor or trans.

6MTUA5

iTrader: (2)

Montaigne, I am having the same problem as you.. the "hesitation/dying" not the lurching forward. Since I swapped the 6 speed in, it doesn't really lurch forward since it's not in drive


When I get on the gas it seems to hesitate for a second and not go anywhere, despite how far down on the throttle I am. All of a sudden, you can feel it sort of catching up with itself (like you described) and then matches to where the RPMs should be (according to throttle position and gear selection). I have new NGK Iridium IX, seafoamed often (including cleaning the TB really well). I am working on getting a new TB assembly with a new(er) IACV and TPS (both of mine are bad) to see if that does anything. I have heard valve adjustment and timing might be off from a few friends that I have talked to about it.

fsttyms1

You would know it if the timing was off on these cars even 1 tooth. You having done the swap and retaining the stock auto ECU probably has something to do with your issue.

mweber36

Montaigne and 6MTUA5

Yes, your second paragraphs totally describe my conditions in any weather (hot or cold). But mine has never fully died upon acceleration. I'm getting the feeling from fsttyms1's replies that the next logical part replacement for me might be the TPS/Throttle Body. After that it will be to breakdown and take it to an Acura shop to have them check live data and swap out the PCM.

With everything I have replaced I am sooo close to eliminating the problem. The last couple of days I tried to minimize the loss of idle/hesitation before putting it into gear and to let the engine idle by itself for 2-3 minutes from a cold start. The PCM seems to be adjusting and learning itself where the correct idle should be at. It keeps getting better every time I start from cold and it seems to learn more each time.

Montaigne: I highly doubt that your steering rack has anything to do with our idle/hesitation concern. I also do not think that mine is transmission related and was told by an Acura dealer that I have the latest transmission recall update. It just does not feel like that is my problem. I have concluded that it is only the parts that relate to the fuel/air mixture.

Sure wish I could get an answer to my last plea about DIY PCM replacement? I would try this myself if I knew if it was as simple as just using my ignition key (with the transponder chip) or if I really need to have it reprogrammed using a Honda PGM tester?

6MTUA5: The valve adjustment was the biggest step toward making my car right. Definitely invest in having this done! Mostly labor and a few gaskets, so it isn't real cheap. I also agree with fsttyms1, you would know right away if your timing is off.

What is an "FITV" issue?

Thanks for all your input Guys!!!

Audiovibe-Mike

Ive noticed my car does this aswell but its never a strong enough lurch to break free ive noticed it sometimes goes with the fan from the climate control, if i have my heat/ac off ( 90% of the time) its fine. i dunno if this helps, just my 2 cents

Jbets44

I am having the same problem with my idle. When I step on the gas my rpms go up but my car doesn't accelerate. If I keep my foot on the gas my car jerks and then starts to accelerate. When I come to a complete stop my car jumps forward. I just got a new transmission $3300 bc I thought (and so did 3 mechanics I went to) I had a bad transmission. symptoms like slipping and hard shifting would likely be the transmission right? But why is it still doing it when I just spent a ton of money on a transmission? I REALLY NEED HELP! I put $5000 into this car and it is still giving me problems. Did you ever find out what the problem was?

This only happens in the morning when it is cold. But even when I warm it up, it will do this for about 5-10 min then be normal again.

webmastir

very interesting. i've started to see the EXACT SAME PROBLEM after my rebuilt transmission 2 months ago.
everything you listed i've experienced (altho the accelerating problem only happens when i accelerate when coasting around 3-6mph(weird i know & only happens sometimes)). it really only does it in the cold/cold start for the most part. it's like the tranny fluid doesn't get into all the gears until after the first or 2nd stop, so it feels like anyway.

the only way i've gotten around it w/o freaking out when it jerks, is..

warm up car for about 5ish min. drive slow & get in second gear...come to a crawl & stop(slowly) - only does a very minor jerk (sometimes). then drive into 2nd gear again, really even 3rd gear if possible, & come back to a crawling stop slowly... then after that it goes away, at least for me anyway.

i noticed the other day that i came to a quick halt from 3rd gear & it jerked somewhat violently i started to smell a burning smell (i think it was from me...i was in downtown nashville so coulda been another car i suppose). i didn't do my proper come to a slow stop before this happened.
so anyway, i drove home & check tranny fluid & smelled it - was perfect looking & didn't smell like anything abnormal.

webmastir

so, i noticed today when it was MUCH warmer outside than past many weeks coming out to my car after work (car sits for 10.5hrs), i decided to not do my "tranny warmup method" as described in post above. it didn't do anything like it does in the cold. it's like it only does it when it's cold.
i was also thinking, could this be brakes sticking? & just me thinking it's tranny...doubt it would be brakes but just trying to figure out what causes this in cold weather

totaledTL

Maybe try cleaning solenoid screens & replacing transm. filter w/ fluid change.

mweber36

Hi Jbets and webmastir,

Sorry for not posting the final resolve earlier. It was not the TPS/Throttle Body nor the PCM as I indicated in my last posting. Plugged EGR intake ports are a very important thing to check as well.

I know this is going to sound crazy but it has nothing to do with your transmission nor your brakes either.

My final step to resolve the issue was to take it to my closest local (if you want to call 60 miles away local?) Acura dealer in Milwaukee WI.

Here we go with all of the final tests and conclusions.

1) I was getting the check engine light come on with all kinds of funky misfire codes (PO303/304/305/306).

2) They checked the fuel pressure with the hose disconnected and connected. Their readings were 54 psi disconnected and 44 psi connected. OK, within spec.

3) They then checked the MAP sensor voltage and the reading was .90v, OK, within spec.

4) They then discovered that the fuel trim was climbing at 1.14 (this was the key indicator that pointed them to the fix). This led them to believe that I had bad fuel in the tank. They promptly drained $45 worth of fuel from my tank and checked the fuel trim again. No change. (FYI, when they returned the car to me after it was fixed they only put $16 worth of fuel back in the tank. Cheap-skates!!) The only good part was that I had a brand new 2009 Acura TSX as a loaner for two days (the TSX is not a TL). They even waived the $25/day rental fee (how nice of them).

5) This is the disheartening part; the Acura dealer's mechanics were stumped at this point. Whaaaaat???? Get this, they had to call Honda Califorinia to get help.

6) The Honda factory service resolve was to suggest replacement of all six injectors. (If you read one of my earlier posts, my local import mechanic specialist checked the injectors and they appeared to be within spec to him.)

7) You are not going to like this, but parts, labor and misc other sundries and taxes later, I wrote them a $715 check.

All was fixed at this point and everthing has been running non-stop since then (until next time).

OOPS, I almost forgot to mention that not everything was hunky-dory after this problem was fixed. Nine months later, at 141,000 miles and five miles from home on a cold dark night, my transmission gave up the ghost. The total cost on that, after towing back to Milwaukee and a factory Honda reman transmission was a cool $3,800 bill. This time they actually gave me the loan of a 2010 TL for five days (over the weekend to boot) at no charge.

Hope this helps. Good luck!

mweber36

mweber36

Forgot to finish one of my sentences. It should have read:

7) You are not going to like this, but parts, labor and misc other sundries and taxes later, I wrote them a $715 check, for six new injectors.

gotbanned

Not sure if you have figured this out yet, but i recently had a customre bring his car to the shop has the same probs but also had a missfire code. I took off the take plenum cover on the top and low and behold a huge carbon build up where the egr ports are! i took off the whole intake and had it dipped in acid to clean it all out. put it all back together and its working like a charm now.

webmastir

interesting to see you all say some of the problems described by many of us can be possibly caused by clogged EGR ports. i've never cleaned mine in *155,000 miles* . i keep meaning to do it but keep putting it off. i will definitely try this asap after hearing so many of you suggest that. thanks

mweber36

Let me try to take a systematic approach to help you with your solution and not to have you take repetitive steps to truly resolve the real problem. However, at 155K miles I would highly recommend that you take a look at your EGR intake port channels soon. It will not be a wasted effort toward a properly functioning fuel system.

My local import mechanic tried this early on in my situation and it helped as long as the engine was not allowed to cool down. Read my first posting on 09-14-2008 in this string.

While keeping your EGR intake port channels clean and clear are very important to the proper function of the Exhaust Gas Recirculation (EGR) system, the EGR system only really comes into play at high engine operating temperatures. This does not sound like your situation? Yours (like mine was) only happens in initial cold start conditions.

The EGR system is also typically not active at high loads because it would reduce peak power output. This is because it reduces the intake charge density. The EGR system is also non-functional at idle (low-speed, zero load) because it would cause unstable combustion, resulting in rough idle. Again, your symptom (like mine was) is under a fuel loading (supply) condition (acceleration). Right?

This then should logically lead us back to the fuel supply to the cylinders through the injectors. After the vehicle has warmed up, the ECM uses the signal from the final sensor in the fuel system (oxygen sensor) to perform fine tuning of the fuel trim through the injectors. “Fuel Trim,” does this sound familiar from the factory Acura technician’s suggestions to the Acura dealer. It now all makes sense.

So to save you a few steps, while you have the EGR intake plenum cover off for cleaning, I would take the whole plenum off and replace the injectors. You will have to do this a second time anyway once you determine that cleaning the carbon from the EGR port channels did not resolve the real problem; injectors. That is, if this is a DIY project.

I myself would not want to tackle the delicate settings of the fuel injectors without proper equipment and training. I have a copy of the Acura service manual and it is a complex process. Best left to the trained professionals that do this for a living, in my opinion.

Best of luck!

CharlieJ

I was just curious. And I'm not really sure the severity of this problem. I don't think it's big. I've got a 97 Acura CL 3.0 that runs like a dime for its age. Now when idling every like 30 seconds it kinda surges per say, for about 10 seconds and back to a quiet idle. Now the tachometer hardly budges half a centimeter, and the sound it's protruding, but it's definitely noticable. Any thoughts?