Help. Running out of ideas.

Thread Tools
 
Search this Thread
 
Old Jan 7, 2021 | 09:59 PM
  #41  
Jon M's Avatar
Thread Starter
Pro
Photogenic
Liked
Loved
Community Favorite
 
Joined: Nov 2020
Posts: 630
Likes: 199
From: El Cajon, CA
Arkady,

Wow, we are on the same page. Last night I was thinking about the indications I have seen and realized I had the surging solution right in front on me. When I covered the lower port in the Throttle Body (TB) the idle smoothed out. This was the clue. The problem was this IAC valve was working intermittently. One day it was great and then every once in a while it apparently stuck open, I thought the fuel was increasing and the air was following the fuel exactly opposite of what was happening.
I removed the TB and the IAC valve. I had 3 IAC valves as I replaced the valve about 18 months ago. I had the original from Honda, the one that was in the car, and another cheap Chinese unit that was tried once before. I found the old units and took them apart (5 point torx security screws). Pulling the motor off of all the valves I have a few observations. The Honda one is definitely the best built, the bearings are pressed in, you can see that the tolerances of the plate that opens or blocks the air flow is best in Honda unit. However, this one had a seized shaft. The unit from the car was an Intermotor part also has pressed bearings but it was a bit cheaper built than the Honda unit, the plate gap seems bigger and the magnetic shaft end is made of cheaper metal and less magnetic than the Honda unit. The shaft moved relatively freely but didn't spin. I think the motor on the installed one is bad. The cheap ($30) Chinese unit was cheap, the whole shaft with the bearings included basically came out with the motor. The bearings are not pressed in although the fit didn't wobble, although I can see that long term it will not stand up. I took all units and soaked them in cleaner for an hour and then connected a drill motor to the shaft and spun them while in the Berryman cleaner bath. After which the Honda unit was able to move but not freely enough and it felt like a bearing was scratched. The Chinese one was a free as ever, I used it once 18 months ago but the idle, while it stopped surging then, was always high at 1500 rpm. Since the one from the car felt the same as when I took it out, I decided to make a unit from the piece parts; so I used the Chinese housing and bearings and the original Honda (denso) motor. Once reassembled, I left the TCS off and the car idled at 750 rpm nice and steady. I reassembled the TCS etc. and then restarted. The car started and idled at 1000 rpm and then when warm went to 750 rpm. It idles better than the car ever has, I cleared all the errors from when the TCS was disconnected and then burped the radiator. The car idles nicely at 750 rpm in fact it now stays between 745 and 755 rpm, I didn't rev the car afterwards as I want one night thinking all is well.
The car also now starts much better, less cranking, no low 300rpm idle that kicks up, and it started when hot, and after a 15 minute soak.
After opening the 3 different IAC valves I can say that when the one I assembled goes bad I will definitely be buying the part from Honda.

Will get back after I rev the car up and check to make sure there is no more codes for the MAP and Knock sensor. I also need to reinstall the PS pump.

Thank you for your suggestion!

Last edited by Jon M; Jan 7, 2021 at 10:02 PM. Reason: adding information
Reply
Old Jan 8, 2021 | 10:23 AM
  #42  
Arkady's Avatar
Pro
 
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 582
Likes: 91
Nice! Great work man! I'm glad that worked out well for you. Your research into the insides of the units is helpful too - last time I was replacing the valve was a few years ago when I was in a bit more precarious of a financial situation, so I bought the Intermotor unit. Now I know to shell out for an authentic Honda part when the time comes

So what's next on the list to get this TL back on the road?
Reply
Old Jan 8, 2021 | 07:34 PM
  #43  
Jon M's Avatar
Thread Starter
Pro
Photogenic
Liked
Loved
Community Favorite
 
Joined: Nov 2020
Posts: 630
Likes: 199
From: El Cajon, CA
Arkady,
The price differential is big, that is why I bought the cheaper ones, I hope the denso motor and the Chinese body continue to work. If I had a car that I was planning to only use for a year or so I would probably go with the Intermotor part but if I was planning to keep the car for a while and had the money I would buy the Honda unit.

Car started nicely, idle is smooth at 750 but when I increased the rpms I got the 83-1 and 0325 codes. After resetting and trying several times it seems as if the knock sensor was intermittent started ringing out wires and connectors. Opened the connector the Knock sensor that is behind the power steering pump (C103) and cleaned and reseated it a few times. This appears to have solved that problem. I left it reving at 4000 rpms for a minute or two and no problems, hot or cold. I found the PS pump a little rough in movement so I am cleaning it out before I reinstall it. I have the seals I just have to take it apart and see if there is a problem.
I plan to finish the pump either by rebuilding it or reassembly once I see the insides. then I need to reassemble some items, such as putting the sway/brace bar back and some under dash plastic to put back. After that I am going to road test in on the the hill nearby, if no problems I need to run it on the freeway.

Last edited by Jon M; Jan 8, 2021 at 07:39 PM. Reason: adding
Reply
Old Jan 8, 2021 | 09:39 PM
  #44  
Arkady's Avatar
Pro
 
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 582
Likes: 91
Well, good luck and keep us posted!
Reply
Old Jan 10, 2021 | 08:54 PM
  #45  
Jon M's Avatar
Thread Starter
Pro
Photogenic
Liked
Loved
Community Favorite
 
Joined: Nov 2020
Posts: 630
Likes: 199
From: El Cajon, CA
Unhappy

1, Cleaned and rebuilt the power steering pump, movement is smooth and a bit tighter than before. Reassembled all and started the car, there was no squealing, went to back out and noticed no power steering in the wheel. I rev'd the engine to 3500rpm and was able to turn the wheel with a lot of resistance right then left to the stops and then I heard a pop, like a balloon, then the steering was normal. I checked underneath and couldn't find any leaks, no sign what the pop was but I am concerned.
2. Took the car on the road and I had 1 backfire when making a turn, then down the nearby hill and at the bottom, there was a second where there was no response to the gas pedal, drove a quarter mile to turn around and when going back up the hill the original problem is still there , no response to the gas pedal, RPMs limited to about 1500, going 15 MPH. This continued until I was on flatter ground.
*I did see some old threads where the ignition switch caused similar problems, as thoiboi suggested before everything else went to pot. I replaced the ignition switch. No difference. I ran the Honda scan program and no error codes all tests passed (had to do this when parked).

Reply
Old Jan 12, 2021 | 08:34 PM
  #46  
Jon M's Avatar
Thread Starter
Pro
Photogenic
Liked
Loved
Community Favorite
 
Joined: Nov 2020
Posts: 630
Likes: 199
From: El Cajon, CA
I was hoping someone had some ideas on the power steering pop.

I hooked up a fuel pressure gauge to the Honda tool (07VAJ-0040100) that you substitute in for the fuel pulsation dampener. As my car is a type S it should have a fuel pressure reading of 48-51 PSI. As you can see when parked in my driveway it has 35 PSI. When driving the pressure bounced between 28- 34 PSI. When going uphill it dropped to 28/29 PSI area however when I tried to go uphill faster it dropped to 22 and that is when the RPMs wouldn't respond to the gas pedal until it got to a lesser incline and then the fuel pressure increased to 30 PSI and the car was responsive again. No increases when going downhill maximum of 35 PSI. When I remove the vacuum line from the fuel pressure regulator the fuel pressure increases by 1 PSI momentarily.




Last edited by Jon M; Jan 12, 2021 at 08:36 PM. Reason: correction
Reply
Old Jan 17, 2021 | 08:18 PM
  #47  
Jon M's Avatar
Thread Starter
Pro
Photogenic
Liked
Loved
Community Favorite
 
Joined: Nov 2020
Posts: 630
Likes: 199
From: El Cajon, CA
Problem Found!

As I wrote in the first post I had first replaced the fuel filter and the fuel pump. Today I rigged up the Fuel Pressure Gauge (FPG) to the top of the fuel filter and hot wired the pump directly from the battery. The pressure was 34 psi. I then removed the fuel filter assembly and hooked the FPG directly to the fuel pump, it maxed out the gauge at over 100 psi. I cleared the gauge of air and kept running the pump, it never fell below 100 psi. I then reconnected the fuel pump through the filter ran the test again and it was 34 psi. I purchased the filter back at the end of October and while I had the other issues with the car it appears that my uphill problem was all due to the Fuel Filter. I have read on other threads in Acurazine that they have never heard of a fuel filter failure but this was obviously a manufacturing defect. The part I purchased was a genuine Honda part from Acura Parts HQ. Hopefully they will replace it and do so quickly.
Reply
Old Jan 18, 2021 | 12:33 PM
  #48  
whitetiger5's Avatar
Burning Brakes
20 Year Member
Liked
Loved
Community Favorite
 
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 1,191
Likes: 331
From: Newport beach
Seemed like a lot of work to figure that out!

I've never had to replace the fuel filter on my car, what prompted you to do so?
Reply
Old Jan 18, 2021 | 01:15 PM
  #49  
Jon M's Avatar
Thread Starter
Pro
Photogenic
Liked
Loved
Community Favorite
 
Joined: Nov 2020
Posts: 630
Likes: 199
From: El Cajon, CA
whitetiger5,
Seems like it was a lot of work to me also. The first symptom was the random stalling of the car, it stalled while I was in the left lane of a 4 lane freeway. It was not easy getting through those lanes to the side of the road as it was getting to be rush hour. I had to get towed home, after getting home, the car started. I didn't find a code and the car ran as it had been. Three weeks later it did it again. My first thought was fuel pump or fuel filter so I replaced both as you have to take both out of the fuel tank to replace either. I blocked out there being a problem with the fuel filter and pump because I replaced them first and what are the odds that a new part is bad, specially since under some conditions there isn't an evident problem.
I think the low fuel pressure allowed the other problems to be more evident as it stressed the car under different conditions. Apparently I was chasing several issues at the same time that were intermittent so I was jumping all over the place.

I have contacted Acura Parts HQ and they will get back to me on replacing the filter but in any case it will takes days to arrive. I wonder how much the fuel filter is supposed to effect the fuel pressure, does anyone know?

Last edited by Jon M; Jan 18, 2021 at 01:18 PM. Reason: spelling
Reply
Old Jan 18, 2021 | 04:34 PM
  #50  
Jon M's Avatar
Thread Starter
Pro
Photogenic
Liked
Loved
Community Favorite
 
Joined: Nov 2020
Posts: 630
Likes: 199
From: El Cajon, CA
Spoke with Acura Parts HQ and after discussion with the Acura Manager he agreed to replace the filter (had his master tech on the call), if I paid the shipping. I did overhear the master tech say that coming out of the fuel filter the fuel pressure should be around 56 PSI. Good information to have.
Reply
Old Jan 21, 2021 | 08:15 PM
  #51  
Jon M's Avatar
Thread Starter
Pro
Photogenic
Liked
Loved
Community Favorite
 
Joined: Nov 2020
Posts: 630
Likes: 199
From: El Cajon, CA
Received the new fuel filter, put it in, and it doesn't work. I still have over 100 PSI at the pump but now I have 22 PSI out of the filter. I tried the old pump it has 74 PSI out of the pump and 19 PSI out of the filter. I don't understand, I am powering the pump directly from the car battery. the output of the filter is going directly into the fuel pressure gauge. As far as I know there is nothing that has to be done to the filter before installation, just connect up the connectors and the fuel line. Put on the rubber spacer and cap at the bottom and add in a fuel strainer to the bottom of the fuel pump. The fuel line from the pump goes to the black plastic pipe which is connected to the fuel filter output which is the outer most fuel line connector with the white plastic quick connect.

I am trying to rig up two pressure gauges but I am not sure if it will add any additional information. I find it hard to believe i received two bad fuel filters (although both were from the same vendor).
Any help here would be appreciated, I need to get this car on the road.
Reply
Old Jan 22, 2021 | 06:09 PM
  #52  
Jon M's Avatar
Thread Starter
Pro
Photogenic
Liked
Loved
Community Favorite
 
Joined: Nov 2020
Posts: 630
Likes: 199
From: El Cajon, CA
I rigged up a setup that allowed me to see the input and the pressure output of the filter. I previously measured over 100 PSI directly at the output of the fuel pump. The setup was put together as shown below:

Test setup for before and after fuel filter testing

After getting this mess into the fuel tank I applied 12 volts directly from the battery to input connector using 16 gauge wire and some lugs into a old fuel pump wire harness with one side cut off to allow the correct voltage orientation.

The picture below shows the two gauges when the fuel pump is energized.

Fuel pressure when 12.5 volts applied. Larger gauge is out of the fuel pump while the smaller gauge is from the filter output.

The before and after fuel pressure is the same. From this I would have to conclude that the new fuel pump is not working properly, although after thinking the new fuel filter was bad since the pressure dropped so much I am not sure if I can say the pump is bad. I still can't believe a pump putting out 100 PSI would fold back so much when a filter is placed in line.

Am I looking at this correctly?

Reply
Old Jan 22, 2021 | 06:29 PM
  #53  
whitetiger5's Avatar
Burning Brakes
20 Year Member
Liked
Loved
Community Favorite
 
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 1,191
Likes: 331
From: Newport beach
I think you've proven that the pressure on both sides of the filter is the same.

are you testing the pressure when the engine is running? I believe the manual states that? now that you know pre and post filter measurements match, have you check the pressure right after the filter and close to the fuel rail as illistrated in the service manual? do those match as well?
Reply
Old Jan 23, 2021 | 12:58 AM
  #54  
Jon M's Avatar
Thread Starter
Pro
Photogenic
Liked
Loved
Community Favorite
 
Joined: Nov 2020
Posts: 630
Likes: 199
From: El Cajon, CA
whitetiger5,

Thank you for responding.
I have previously measured the same fuel pressure at the pulsation dampener (before the fuel rail as prescribe by the manual) as I do at the output of the fuel filter. The engine running or not won't effect fuel pressure that is lower than the specification, there would be little fuel returned to the tank and the fuel pressure regulator will not work as it can't increase the fuel pressure. What the same pressure at the output of the fuel filter and the input of the regulator says to me is that there is no blockage in the fuel lines. The manual states that the fuel pressure at the regulator should be 48-51 PSI for a type S. At 20 PSI you would be lucky to get the engine started and if you did get it to idle correctly you couldn't drive it.
I hope I am not wrong like I apparently was about the fuel filter but I think the fuel pump needs to be replaced. The reason I tested it directly was to remove all other car components from the loop, so it couldn't be electrical or other blockages along the way. Hopefully this make sense.
Reply
Old Jan 23, 2021 | 08:57 PM
  #55  
whitetiger5's Avatar
Burning Brakes
20 Year Member
Liked
Loved
Community Favorite
 
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 1,191
Likes: 331
From: Newport beach
Originally Posted by Jon M
When I remove the vacuum line from the fuel pressure regulator the fuel pressure increases by 1 PSI momentarily.
In the manual it states that if the pressure doesn't rise after doing this to inspect the vacuum hoses or replace the Fuel Pressure Regulator (FPR) have you thought of replacing this?


Originally Posted by Jon M
The engine running or not won't effect fuel pressure that is lower than the specification
If you feel this isn't a variable then OK, it tend to do things by the book just in case...
Reply
Old Jan 24, 2021 | 08:01 PM
  #56  
Jon M's Avatar
Thread Starter
Pro
Photogenic
Liked
Loved
Community Favorite
 
Joined: Nov 2020
Posts: 630
Likes: 199
From: El Cajon, CA
Whitetiger5

My basic understanding of the Fuel pressure regulator operation is the OEM version is set to regulate within the engine specifications as long as the base fuel pressure is present. A high base pressure would have the fuel routed back to the tank a low fuel pressure it cannot regulate as it doesn't meet the pressure threshold of the spring inside the regulator. When the base pressure is there the vacuum will allow the free flow of fuel as the pressure differential across the fuel injectors is within spec. When you hit the gas the vacuum decreases and there is a little ball valve that no closes boosting the pressure across the injectors as it closes out the fuel return line. In a fuel injected system the base fuel pressure would have to be somewhere around 40-60 PSI for the system to work, in a carburetor system I think 12-20 PSI was require I believe this is the basic way it woks. Hopefully someone here can tell us if I am out to lunch.
I agree with following the manual and I have but now I am in territory that is not covered by the manual. The manual states that a 2002 should have 48-55 PSI with the vacuum line disconnected and clamped. If not connect the vacuum line and reconnect then disconnect and make sure that the pressure rise when it is disconnected, which it does but it is still very low and the manual states check for fuel leaks and clogged fuel filter. Which is what I have been doing although without any resolution.

I REALLY need someone with more knowledge than I apparently have, I have two new fuel filters, and two pumps and I cannot get the proper fuel pressure at the regulator. I put in a Denso fuel pump which measured 82 PSI directly out of the fuel pump but when I go through the second fuel filter it measured 21 PSI. When I use the first new filter the output pressure is 34 PSI.
I connected everything back up and it measure 22 PSI at the fuel pressure regulator when the vacuum is disconnected. I have used two fuel pressure gauges and both agree have the same readings.

I have no idea why I can't get the 48- 55 PSI out of the fuel filter. HELP!!



Fuel Filter #1

Pressure direct from pump

Output from the fuel filter

Pressure at the FPR

Reply
Old Jan 24, 2021 | 09:00 PM
  #57  
Arkady's Avatar
Pro
 
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 582
Likes: 91
Wasn't there something wrong with one of your injectors earlier too? Did you already correct that? If so, it'd be worth a double check to make sure all that's situated. I'll admit that I'm not very familiar with the fuel regulation system so I'm just guessing here, but if you've got an unusually low pressure after the filters, maybe something's making it come out too fast on the far end of the line?

If what I'm saying is a total misunderstanding of how the fuel system works, someone please do correct me.
Reply
Old Jan 24, 2021 | 09:42 PM
  #58  
Jon M's Avatar
Thread Starter
Pro
Photogenic
Liked
Loved
Community Favorite
 
Joined: Nov 2020
Posts: 630
Likes: 199
From: El Cajon, CA
arkady, appreciate the response but the pressure is bad once the fuel pump is connected to the fuel filter. The reason I went direct was to eliminate any other engine, fuel line, or electrical problem. By the way, I replaced the fuel injector with the cracked pintle cap.

I hope that someone has some expertise with this as I can't figure it out. I have two new fuel pumps one Denso (951-0005) and one Delphi. I have two new fuel filters (Honda) from Acura Parts HQ. The best fuel pressure I get is using what I am calling new fuel filter #1. That would be 34- 35 PSI. Fuel Filter #2 gives me 21 PSI, out of any pump. I am hoping someone can help as it is hard to believe that the parts are bad. I checked the voltage at the battery and it is steady at 14.48 volts when the car is running. I had the battery wired directly to the pump when making the measurements at the pump.

Still looking for HELP!
Reply
Old Jan 26, 2021 | 09:11 AM
  #59  
Davius's Avatar
Instructor
 
Joined: Jun 2020
Posts: 140
Likes: 42
From: San Diego
If I am following this correctly: out of tank, the pressure is fine; in tank, pressure is no good? How frustrating is that! I'd just go pull an entire system from a junkyard and swap it in. It's pretty rare for these cars to have fuel pump/filter issues like previously mentioned, so there's a good chance a junkyard unit works well. Might be quicker than finding the specialist you're looking for. Good Luck
Reply
Old Jan 26, 2021 | 01:52 PM
  #60  
whitetiger5's Avatar
Burning Brakes
20 Year Member
Liked
Loved
Community Favorite
 
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 1,191
Likes: 331
From: Newport beach
when you get goo pressure from the pump; is it under normal power (I think you mentioned that you were hooking it up directly to the battery to test) or through the ignition/fuel relay?

Have you checked all the fuses associated with the fuel supply system? pic below just in case any were missed...

Reply
Old Jan 26, 2021 | 09:17 PM
  #61  
Jon M's Avatar
Thread Starter
Pro
Photogenic
Liked
Loved
Community Favorite
 
Joined: Nov 2020
Posts: 630
Likes: 199
From: El Cajon, CA
Davius.
Thank you for your response. I think you misunderstood. The pressure from the fuel pump alone was good, the pressure out of the fuel filter which is connected directly to the fuel pump (in the tank) has been low. I am going to post some pictures below.
Whitetiger5,
Thank you for you response. When I got the good fuel pressure readings it was from the pump alone without a filter and it didn't matter how I hooked up the voltage. I hooked the voltage up directly to make it easier; since when plugged in it would only run for 2 seconds unless the car was running and the car couldn't run if I had the fuel lines disconnected. See pictures below.







Above is the setup that I was using to test the output from the tank. After 2 new fuel filters from Acura Parts HQ, which is out of Las Vegas, I kept coming back to the fuel filters being bad, so I ordered a Dorman fuel filter from Rock Auto and lo and behold the fuel pressure is great.
I measured 83 PSI out of the pump and through the fuel filter. I hooked this up to the fuel lines and return and measured the pressure at the Fuel Pressure Regulator and with the vacuum line attached to the FPR the measurement is 43 PSI. When the vacuum line is removed and blocked the fuel pressure goes up and stays at 51 PSI.








Final Measurement
Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth.” - Sherlock Homes

I drove the car up the hill that I have been using at a test and there was no hesitating, no slowing down, and no top end RPMs. Now I need to fix the fuel gauge meter that I broke when taking the filter in and out of the tank.
I can't believe I got 2 bad fuel filters. They must have one of the 3 problems listed below:

1. There is a blockage in filter
2. There is an open in the filter allowing the fuel to flow back into the return area
3. There is a crack in the plastic housing allowing fuel to leak back into the tank.



Last edited by Jon M; Jan 26, 2021 at 09:26 PM. Reason: fixes
Reply
Old Jan 26, 2021 | 09:42 PM
  #62  
zeta's Avatar
Suzuka Master
20 Year Member
Liked
Loved
Community Favorite
iTrader: (1)
 
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 6,852
Likes: 2,196
From: S. Florida
^
Sir, your perseverance in resolving this issue is admirable!
Reply
Old Jan 27, 2021 | 11:44 AM
  #63  
Arkady's Avatar
Pro
 
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 582
Likes: 91
Incredible! Guess I'll keep that in my Acura journal - stick with Dorman for fuel filters!
Reply
Old Jan 27, 2021 | 04:06 PM
  #64  
whitetiger5's Avatar
Burning Brakes
20 Year Member
Liked
Loved
Community Favorite
 
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 1,191
Likes: 331
From: Newport beach
crazy. the parts from acura parts HQ were oem, genuine honda parts?
Reply
Old Jan 27, 2021 | 05:11 PM
  #65  
Jon M's Avatar
Thread Starter
Pro
Photogenic
Liked
Loved
Community Favorite
 
Joined: Nov 2020
Posts: 630
Likes: 199
From: El Cajon, CA
Hi Zeta,
Not much choice other than getting it a dealer and have them go through the same thing but at a much greater cost. Thank you for the compliment.

Arkady,
I made a mistake the replacement fuel filter was a Beck Arnley part, PN 0433015 (043-3015), cost was $39 plus shipping.

Whitetiger5,
The two fuel filters that were bad were Honda parts; they were purchased from CardinaleWay Acura in Las Vegas. They are doing business online as Acura Parts Headquarters. I purchased it from them, as I figured it would get to San Diego faster, due to their proximity I assume they are selling real Acura/Honda parts as they came with the Honda red and white label with the PN on it. I think that they have a damaged lot of fuel filter parts; at this point I think the most likely reason the filters failed is they have some microcrack(s) in the plastic housing and under pressure the fuel is being pushed through the housing back into the tank. I could prove it by submersing the assembly with the a pump in a bucket and see if I can spot it or put the filter in some water with a air compressor set to 80 PSI and see if I spot bubbles. I just don't want to waste the time. I have to replace one of the mufflers (input pipe no longer sealed and pipe is moving around causing the muffler to bang around), and I need to see if I can fix the fuel gauge sending unit so I can have the gas gauge working again, along with a lot of cleanup. I also have a 1989 Volvo 240 DL that I need to get running again.

Thanks to all who provided input and comments to help me solve all the issues, right now the car is running better than it ever has!

Last edited by Jon M; Jan 27, 2021 at 05:14 PM.
Reply
Old Jan 27, 2021 | 09:20 PM
  #66  
Davius's Avatar
Instructor
 
Joined: Jun 2020
Posts: 140
Likes: 42
From: San Diego
Great job on finding the little gremlin! Thanks for the all the knowledge and experience you were able to relay to the 2g TL community on this issue. Definitely on of the most active threads in recent memory...
Reply
Old Jul 10, 2021 | 11:41 AM
  #67  
whitetiger5's Avatar
Burning Brakes
20 Year Member
Liked
Loved
Community Favorite
 
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 1,191
Likes: 331
From: Newport beach
Tag, I’m it!

Who’s got two thumbs and car died similar to Jon’s (going uphill)...on the way to Vegas!?

@Jon M when you were going uphill and the car “died” did it not really die but more a loss of engine power coupled with the RPM’s on the gauge cluster drop, similar to running out of gas?

Letting off the accelerator pedal brought the needle and running behavior back up?

I’m guessing that I haven’t seen this problem until now because I live down near the coast where elevation and temps (it was 118 out) are more favorable?

I’m trying to go through your thread, to boil down some items I could look at, I know my fuel filter is working, it winds up, what I am not sure (lack of access to tools) is fuel pressure, or if fuel pressure is responding to changes in vacuum (throttle input).

At this point:
  • No CEL’s
  • Did not turn my car off after, just pulled over and inspected battery cables which were nice & tight.
  • Car made it to its destination some 60 miles away, but struggled uphills at times; turned off AC to reduce load on the engine.
  • Recently replaced plugs/coils and drove car over 200 miles prior to this event.
  • Car starts fine, hot or cold.


Anticipating either:
  • Fuel filter
  • Fuel pressure regulator
Reply
Old Jul 10, 2021 | 02:44 PM
  #68  
Jon M's Avatar
Thread Starter
Pro
Photogenic
Liked
Loved
Community Favorite
 
Joined: Nov 2020
Posts: 630
Likes: 199
From: El Cajon, CA
Hi whitetiger5,

Problems on the way to Vegas really S**ks. That area is not a place to breakdown, specially in the summer. Sorry to hear about that.

The original problem I had caused the car to stall and after it cooled I was able to restart it and drive. Later, after fixing multiple other things, going uphill would cause the RPMs to drop down and the speed to drop down to about 20MPH, after getting to more level ground the rpms picked up and so did the speed. It was repeatable. When going uphill and letting off the accelerator, then pressing down did nothing. However when I first felt something that felt wrong this worked but it got worse until it finally acted like I described above and in the thread. What was bad about the fuel filter problem is that fuel flowed through but there was not enough pressure and when looking at the flow out of the filter without it being connected it was fine (no back pressure to slow flow or force the fuel out of the cracked filter back into the tank).

You are right it can be the regulator, filter, or fuel pump. What tools are you missing?

Regards,
Jon
Reply
Old Jul 11, 2021 | 08:57 AM
  #69  
bbsitum's Avatar
Burning Brakes
5 Year Member
Liked
Loved
Community Favorite
 
Joined: Sep 2016
Posts: 964
Likes: 62
Jon M about noisy power steering pump we solved it here - https://acurazine.com/forums/second-...-whine-968753/
"This problem is solved with new pressure hose. Old one didn't have enough of pipe diameter hence was whining. As Whitetiger 5 said to me. So there is NOT problem with air in lines than to small diameter of line. Sunsong make zero whining form first moment when installed."
Reply
Old Jul 11, 2021 | 04:56 PM
  #70  
whitetiger5's Avatar
Burning Brakes
20 Year Member
Liked
Loved
Community Favorite
 
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 1,191
Likes: 331
From: Newport beach
Hi Jon, things became worse. My phone died on me whilst in vegas, so I wasn't able to do much research/communication.

My problem is that the car will not accelerate smoothly when in drive, and felt even more at lower RPM and higher load (like going uphill in 5th gear) which is information I used to make an early morning successful trip back to orange county.

My fuel system components are all original, so I am anticipating that the issue lie within either the pressure regulator, or the filter; nothing I have read points to the pump itself as I have no problems starting the car, but I will more than likely end up replacing all three (to be proactive and avoid being completely stranded some other time) if tests show pressure is not optimal.

Still looking for pressure gauge and the fitting to test the fuel pressure, anyone with easy to find info on this is much appreciated...
Reply
Old Jul 11, 2021 | 07:56 PM
  #71  
justnspace's Avatar
Moderator
15 Year Member
Liked
Loved
Community Favorite
iTrader: (1)
 
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 86,293
Likes: 16,290
whitetiger you got this!
Reply
Old Aug 1, 2021 | 08:15 PM
  #72  
whitetiger5's Avatar
Burning Brakes
20 Year Member
Liked
Loved
Community Favorite
 
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 1,191
Likes: 331
From: Newport beach
Originally Posted by justnspace
whitetiger you got this!

thanks! I became tired of waiting for the fuel pressure test adaptor to arrive, so I replaced my filter/pump with the Beck&Arnley/Denso branded products from rock auto and the car made it up the hill to Victorville with no major issues other than some sluggishness I will ask about in a separate thread…
Reply
Old Oct 27, 2025 | 03:32 PM
  #73  
Robin_S's Avatar
7th Gear
 
Joined: Oct 2025
Posts: 7
Likes: 0
You are the REAL MVP‼️🙌🏻

Originally Posted by Jon M
Hi Zeta,
Not much choice other than getting it a dealer and have them go through the same thing but at a much greater cost. Thank you for the compliment.

Arkady,
I made a mistake the replacement fuel filter was a Beck Arnley part, PN 0433015 (043-3015), cost was $39 plus shipping.

Whitetiger5,
The two fuel filters that were bad were Honda parts; they were purchased from CardinaleWay Acura in Las Vegas. They are doing business online as Acura Parts Headquarters. I purchased it from them, as I figured it would get to San Diego faster, due to their proximity I assume they are selling real Acura/Honda parts as they came with the Honda red and white label with the PN on it. I think that they have a damaged lot of fuel filter parts; at this point I think the most likely reason the filters failed is they have some microcrack(s) in the plastic housing and under pressure the fuel is being pushed through the housing back into the tank. I could prove it by submersing the assembly with the a pump in a bucket and see if I can spot it or put the filter in some water with a air compressor set to 80 PSI and see if I spot bubbles. I just don't want to waste the time. I have to replace one of the mufflers (input pipe no longer sealed and pipe is moving around causing the muffler to bang around), and I need to see if I can fix the fuel gauge sending unit so I can have the gas gauge working again, along with a lot of cleanup. I also have a 1989 Volvo 240 DL that I need to get running again.

Thanks to all who provided input and comments to help me solve all the issues, right now the car is running better than it ever has!

if I have read this thread correctly, @Jon M;16684546 the issue was the FUEL FILTER?! My car is doing the exact same thing, exact same parts replacements, (minus a few of the more invasive replacements) & still doing the exact same thing!! Please tell me my reading comprehension has not failed me today?? 🤞🏻🙏🏻🤞🏻
Reply
Old Oct 27, 2025 | 03:43 PM
  #74  
Jon M's Avatar
Thread Starter
Pro
Photogenic
Liked
Loved
Community Favorite
 
Joined: Nov 2020
Posts: 630
Likes: 199
From: El Cajon, CA
Originally Posted by Robin_S
if I have read this thread correctly, @Jon M;16684546 the issue was the FUEL FILTER?! My car is doing the exact same thing, exact same parts replacements, (minus a few of the more invasive replacements) & still doing the exact same thing!! Please tell me my reading comprehension has not failed me today?? 🤞🏻🙏🏻🤞🏻
You are correct! It was madding at the time and I went through the original and 2 other Acura Filters. ALL OF THEM FAILED. I did not know it at the time but all the testing kept leading me back to the same thing. I finally purchased the aftermarket filter and all the problems went away!
If you are experiencing the same type of problems and tried about all the same things I would highly recommend the aftermarket filter I purchased (See previous post in this thread). From what I could figure out, it seems there were some microcracks in the Acura filters and while the fuel pump was running and on level ground all worked fine, going uphill the fuel pressure would drop and car stalled or just wouldn't accelerate. The fuel was leaking through the fuel filter and back into the tank. Once I replaced the filter wit the aftermarket unit, I had full fuel pressure at the manifold and all worked great.

Good Luck, I hope it all works out for you!
Jon
Reply
Old Oct 27, 2025 | 03:49 PM
  #75  
Robin_S's Avatar
7th Gear
 
Joined: Oct 2025
Posts: 7
Likes: 0
🙌🏻 the real mvp🙌🏻

Originally Posted by Jon M
You are correct! It was madding at the time and I went through the original and 2 other Acura Filters. ALL OF THEM FAILED. I did not know it at the time but all the testing kept leading me back to the same thing. I finally purchased the aftermarket filter and all the problems went away!
If you are experiencing the same type of problems and tried about all the same things I would highly recommend the aftermarket filter I purchased (See previous post in this thread). From what I could figure out, it seems there were some microcracks in the Acura filters and while the fuel pump was running and on level ground all worked fine, going uphill the fuel pressure would drop and car stalled or just wouldn't accelerate. The fuel was leaking through the fuel filter and back into the tank. Once I replaced the filter wit the aftermarket unit, I had full fuel pressure at the manifold and all worked great.

Good Luck, I hope it all works out for you!
Jon
My car is doing mirror image of what you described in every single post!! W. O. W. ! I’ve done all my own mechanic work. (Not because I am a mechanic! However I am able bodied, and my reading comprehension is above average on most days. Did I mention I CAN NOT AFFORD TO PAY A MECHANIC?) So with each passing day it has been more disheartening! You have not only MADE MY DAY!! Most likely my whole year, in its entirety!!! So you do NOT recommend going with the oem filter? Use a high quality aftermarket? Again, THANK YOU SO MUCH FROM THE BOTTOM OF MY HEART!!! Sincerely, A broke, South Alabama, Farmers Daughter. 🫶🏻
Reply
Old Oct 27, 2025 | 05:43 PM
  #76  
Robin_S's Avatar
7th Gear
 
Joined: Oct 2025
Posts: 7
Likes: 0
Fuel Filter

Originally Posted by Jon M
You are correct! It was madding at the time and I went through the original and 2 other Acura Filters. ALL OF THEM FAILED. I did not know it at the time but all the testing kept leading me back to the same thing. I finally purchased the aftermarket filter and all the problems went away!
If you are experiencing the same type of problems and tried about all the same things I would highly recommend the aftermarket filter I purchased (See previous post in this thread). From what I could figure out, it seems there were some microcracks in the Acura filters and while the fuel pump was running and on level ground all worked fine, going uphill the fuel pressure would drop and car stalled or just wouldn't accelerate. The fuel was leaking through the fuel filter and back into the tank. Once I replaced the filter wit the aftermarket unit, I had full fuel pressure at the manifold and all worked great.

Good Luck, I hope it all works out for you!
Jon
Were you talking about the internal filter that is non serviceable or th one on the. Bottom of the sending unit?
Reply
Old Oct 27, 2025 | 06:18 PM
  #77  
Jon M's Avatar
Thread Starter
Pro
Photogenic
Liked
Loved
Community Favorite
 
Joined: Nov 2020
Posts: 630
Likes: 199
From: El Cajon, CA
Robin,

The filter is located in the gas tank. It is the large white and black plastic unit that the fuel pump where the fuel pump sits inside.(See Diagram Below) . The diagram came from https://acura.bernardiparts.com/acur...=5&assembly=43. The unit can be seen under the carpet in the trunk close to the rear seat, just to the left of the middle, drivers side. You will need to carefully remove the two fuel lines going in and out of the unit and take out the bolts that hold down the flange and rubber seal and the electrical connection. Then you can pull out the entire unit which includes the fuel pump in the middle of the filter. You will need to remove the fuel pump and reinstall it in the new filter, which is the big plastic unit.

Yes, do NOT buy the OEM buy the Beck Arnly unit. Much cheaper and it works. Beck Arnley part, PN 0433015 (043-3015) for 2002 Acura TL and TLS. Doing a quick check online you can get it from Amazon for $42 now
Amazon Amazon
or Walmart for about the same.

The filter on the sending unit is for the fuel pump and the big plastic piece is another filter unit for after the fuel pump (sending unit filter). If you replace the fuel hose in between the pump and the plastic housing make sure it is rated to be submergible fuel line or it will melt.


2002 Acura TL and TLS Fuel Tank ETC
2002 Acura TL and TLS Fuel Tank ETC

Reply
Old Oct 27, 2025 | 06:50 PM
  #78  
Robin_S's Avatar
7th Gear
 
Joined: Oct 2025
Posts: 7
Likes: 0
Oh my.

Originally Posted by Jon M
Robin,

The filter is located in the gas tank. It is the large white and black plastic unit that the fuel pump where the fuel pump sits inside.(See Diagram Below) . The diagram came from https://acura.bernardiparts.com/acur...=5&assembly=43. The unit can be seen under the carpet in the trunk close to the rear seat, just to the left of the middle, drivers side. You will need to carefully remove the two fuel lines going in and out of the unit and take out the bolts that hold down the flange and rubber seal and the electrical connection. Then you can pull out the entire unit which includes the fuel pump in the middle of the filter. You will need to remove the fuel pump and reinstall it in the new filter, which is the big plastic unit.

Yes, do NOT buy the OEM buy the Beck Arnly unit. Much cheaper and it works. Beck Arnley part, PN 0433015 (043-3015) for 2002 Acura TL and TLS. Doing a quick check online you can get it from Amazon for $42 now https://www.amazon.com/Beck-Arnley-0.../dp/B004LGJAI2 or Walmart for about the same.

The filter on the sending unit is for the fuel pump and the big plastic piece is another filter unit for after the fuel pump (sending unit filter). If you replace the fuel hose in between the pump and the plastic housing make sure it is rated to be submergible fuel line or it will melt.


2002 Acura TL and TLS Fuel Tank ETC
2002 Acura TL and TLS Fuel Tank ETC
Okay. 🫤 My car is a 2004. It has the “non return” fuel system. But it is doing the SAME EXACT THING your 2002 with the “returnable” fuel system. So. Where do I start? I just got home from auto parts store. The more I thought about it, I decided to confirm. Where do I look for the culprit of my issue? Please help! Financially, these rabbit holes have depleted my means to keep blindly replacing random parts.
Reply
Old Oct 27, 2025 | 07:30 PM
  #79  
Jon M's Avatar
Thread Starter
Pro
Photogenic
Liked
Loved
Community Favorite
 
Joined: Nov 2020
Posts: 630
Likes: 199
From: El Cajon, CA
Robin, That is the kind of information that needs to be stated upfront. Just so I don't wind up plowing the wrong field can you confirm your car information. Model, year and transmission. Also would be helpful in telling me what parts you have replaced.
Reply
Old Oct 27, 2025 | 08:26 PM
  #80  
Robin_S's Avatar
7th Gear
 
Joined: Oct 2025
Posts: 7
Likes: 0
⛽️

Originally Posted by Jon M
Robin, That is the kind of information that needs to be stated upfront. Just so I don't wind up plowing the wrong field can you confirm your car information. Model, year and transmission. Also would be helpful in telling me what parts you have replaced.
Yes sir. I apologize. TBH, I’ve read so many articles, and forum posts they all run together. Normally? Today when I started reading I was a smidge overwhelmed that I had FINALLY found someone having the same, mirror image issues I was also dealing with.



Cylinders: 6
Primary Fuel Type: Gasoline
Electrification Level:
Secondary Fuel Type:
Engine Model: J32A3
Engine Brake (HP): 270
Engine Manufacturer:
Transmission Speed: 5
Transmission Style: Automatic
Engine Displacement (L): 3.211864544
5 speed auto trans.

Parts replaced, Camshaft position sensor, Crankshaft position sensor,
water pump, timing belt, serpentine belt, all pulleys and tensioners, spark plugs, coil packs, fuel pump, removed 02 sensors and cleaned them well. Removed throttle body and cleaned it, Also replaced the throttle actuator module under the dash, but have since then, reinstalled the original part. All the details you described are cloned by my car. Only I have a non return fuel system.🆘
Reply



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:51 AM.