PlatinumTL

I've been having this intermittent problem for a couple of months now where occasionally when I restart the car when it's still warmed up (say, if I park, go shop for 10-15 minutes) then restart, the revs drop to 500 or so. They slowly climbed back up to 750 or so. It never stalled out on me at that time, and driving wise the revs were fine.

Then, about a month ago, I replaced 3 of the ignition coils after the engine exhibited signs (from previous experience) that pointed to bad coils. I was hoping this fixed the low rev issue as well.

Fast forward to today, I went to a buddys place, and left the car for about 20-30 minutes. When I went to start it, it cranked over very weakly, got up to about 500, then dropped like a rock until the engine stalled and all lights came on. I tried starting 1-2 more times, and it did the same thing. The 3rd or 4th time, I gave it some gas and got it stabilized and went on my way.

I drove it on local streets and on the highway for about 40-45 minutes (35 miles total), and it showed no problems while driving. When I got home, i turned it off, then turned it back on right away with no issue. I then let it sit for about 30 minutes, then restarted, the revs went a bit low but it did not stall out.

I've kept up with all TSB's as far as I know. It's overdue for scheduled maintenance but I don't know if that would've really helped in this situation. Any ideas?

01tl4tl

sounds like battery to me
get it charged and tested- free at most parts stores
could involve alternator too, if its been supporting the full workload
test for that is free too, once the car is running

01tl4tl

have you done the recall for egr port?
that still needs to be cleaned out every 75kmiles,,maybe earlier on a single port 99
later years have 6 ports to try and help the prob--they still clog
and can cause the strangest running/not running problems
remove intake manifold to do--see diy section for help

PlatinumTL

IIRC, there was a recall/TSB for the EGR valve, which I got done about 3-4 years ago. The car had about 65K miles on it then.

I just went to start the car again, and it starts up strong and fine, as if nothing happened.

PlatinumTL

Thanks for the ideas, I'll stop by one of the auto stores on the way home from work tomorrow. Hopefully it's something as simple as that.

01tl4tl

there was a -99s only- recall on the egr system--not a new valve
just cleaned the port in manifold and installed an 8mm smooth bore into it
trying to ease the clogging prob on rough edges

I would assume thats dirty again and diy clean the thing right! clean TB as well
the `every 75kmiles` egr cleaning estimate is based on later years with 6 ports,,you have but 1 doing all that work!

PlatinumTL

I just got it tested at Autozone, and the guy used one device to test it out. I had asked him if the device tested the battery, alternator, starter, and ignition system, and he said "yea" matter-of-factly. I don't think he was too keen on helping me out with it, but he came out and tested it.

He said it's the battery, but I think I'm going to get it tested at a different Autozone tomm. Does anyone know if whichever device they use actually did test all 4 systems at once like that, in the span of about 30-60 seconds?

PlatinumTL

Got it tested at an Advance Auto Parts just now, and they did a much longer test, including testing while the car was on, revving, lights/air on, etc.

I got a printout afterwards, which recommended a battery change. It also indicated a charging system problem, with "Check belts, connections, and grounds, alternator service recommended if connections are OK"

I'll buy an alternator tomm morning then take it to my mechanic, and have him test the charging system connections before replacing the alt. Will also get the battery replaced.

TLer trash

Definitely have a "real" mechanic test your electrical system before you start changing parts. Your symptoms could also be caused by a dirty or defective idle air control.

01tl4tl

we hear more times of iacv problems causing a surge in rpm around 1000 rpm,
than engine stalling as described by OP

But failing battery certainly fits!
install the new battery and drive 30-45 minutes without lights etc-
to fully charge it from the alternator

then go for the alt test at the parts store you got battery from
They can test it immediatly after install, but I prefer to let the system get to its own max charge - then you know the alt and batt are working together

yungone501

iTrader: (4)

Hello OP, thought Id chime in and offer some advice and some of my experience as a 10 year auto electrical/drivabilty tech.

The first issue you should address here (even though not the first to appear) is the slow crank and possible bad battery. Low/bad battery can cause many drivabilty issues as well as the battery terminals/posts/grounding points having high resistance or corrosion (also high resistance). Honda and Acura (although the best cars on the road!) have frequent issues that start on or around the battery. If your current battery has been deemed "bad", replace it with the correct battery. While doing this, clean (with a wire brush and baking soda/water mixture) the piss out of the terminals and any corrosion inside the battery cable itself. Afterwards, return to the second person who THOROUGHLY checked the system and have him do another recheck. If all systems are green, and the idle surge issue is still present, proceed towards diagnostics from here.

Question number one, has there ever been a check engine light on because of this issue...or maybe it came on/flashed (during the symptom) but then went back off before it could be checked? Codes can help figuring out your problem dramatically! If there is a known, certain condition (like idling with high loads on for extended periods of time) that actually makes the symptom happen more often/regularly, DO THIS. The reason being is because the longer the symptom remains present, the better chance your engines computer has of detecting the fault and storing or setting a fault code. Then again, sometimes (even extremely severe drivability issues) your ECM doesnt "see" the issue and will never set a code. If a code is never retreived or found, manual testing must take place, as well as alot of datastream monitoring, in order to find the cause of the issue.

IMO, this sound like an issue with the idle-air control valve (IAC). This components soul purpose is to control the idle speed in accordance to load demand on the engine by various factor such as: alternator field output variance, power steering pump usage, A/C compressor operation, etc... Because this car is a '99, the IAC's operation (both mechanically and electrically) are actually quite simple. The ECM sends a varying signal (remember, based on engine loads at idle) to small motor inside the valve that effectively translates into mechanical moving something called a "pintle" that governs airflow into the engine to raise or lower the idle speed. You can check the IAC to an extent with a basic volt/ohm meter by ensuring that (with ignition "ON") it has power on the yellow/black wire and continuity (or no/low resistance in a complete circuit) from the black wire to the negative post of the battery.

See how all these things go or check out then get back with us. Good luck!

Insti Gator

I just want to add in my experince with a '99 TL at 168k. Same exact symptoms as above -
- When car is warmed up (gauge off "C") car will do this:
1. Turn key in ignition - car starts
2. Idle quickly falls/stumbles
3. Car dies
In order to get the car stabilized I restart it, then give it gas (which forces the car to continue running) for approximately 4-5 seconds at about 2,000 rpms. Once I release the accelerator pedal car idles normally, stays on, and drives perfect.

In my instance I would say it is NOT the battery. Obviously I am not a certified mechanic but I have a good basic understanding/general knowledge and believe this is not the case here.

I'm fairly confident the problem is with what 01tl4tl has stated about the EGR port because the car feels as though it's getting "choked" out. (a sensation I recognize from some of my honda XR machines) I think I will clean it out and see if that solves our problem.

I have searched this topic EXTENSIVELY here on Azine and found many threads with this same problems, esp. in '99s, however nobody seems to have an answer and OP's never report back if they fixed the problem.

Hopefully we can get this figured out but my $$ is on 01tl4tl's solution.

Insti Gator

Ok - did some more research and here is some reading material for those interested:
https://acurazine.com/forums/2g-tl-problems-fixes-117/99-tl-wont-stay-running-dies-out-seconds-793720/



https://acurazine.com/forums/showthread.php?t=793720
This one has multiple people in the same situation and even you Platinum having the same symptoms and eventually getting it fixed? Not calling you out - but it seems like you had the dealer do some work and it was fixed for a while - maybe the port has clogged again?

And many people keep saying cleaning the throttle body - but I don't belileve that is the root of the problem. I think specifically one must clean the EGR port. That is the crucial element.





HOWEVER - in this one :https://acurazine.com/forums/2g-tl-problems-fixes-117/my-99-tl-stalls-after-start-764399/

SLushhhYYY says that he cleaned IM and EGR port and STILL had issues.. so I'm not sure where that leaves my theory. I honestly believe it was done improperly or incompletely and that is why he still experienced prooblems.

I will continue to research.

Insti Gator

In THIS thread : http:///forums/f47/starting-issues-c...-3-2-tl-99652/

user sfsmitty2304 mentions, "Ya ALDO I ended up taking the car in after I myself replaced the EGR valve myself because it was still doing the same thing. The shop had to clean out the pipes to the EGR valve and install a bypass (there was alot of build-up in the pipes apparently)...I have not had the problem since. It is expensive for the labor so if you are engine savvy you may be able to do it yourself.

Hope this helps."

I believe more now than ever that this is the ultimate solution. Maybe the EGR port plays off OTHER issues as well so that when it is clean it is one of the other problems holding the car back.

victus1

Just to eliminate these items from your diagnosis, go ahead and clean the IAC valve (remove throttle body 4 bolts to get to it) and the EGR valve (2 bolts and its out). It is best to remove both and spray them with carb cleaner, let it sit for 10 min and repeat. Do the same for the throttle body, clean it all out while its removed. And don't forget to get new gaskets for the IAC, EGR and for the throttle body before reinstalling. For the EGR valve, use a flat screwdriver to gently pull up and open the pin on the bottom and spray LOTS of cleaner inside it. Also clean the port on the block where the valve sits. Before you install the EGR back, spray some lube on its moving arm.
Anyway, this should be part of a regular service schedule.
And do what Instigator said: look up the diy on removing the intake manifold and cleaning all the carbon build up.

95CivicNOWa99TL

This is a great video on cleaning the EGR passage: This is a great video on cleaning the EGR passage:. I have the same issue, and just replaced the ignition switch, as I have also had it die on me while driving on the highway (always fun).

PlatinumTL

Thanks for the informative responses....I had the battery replaced 2 days ago, but the issue continued to happen.

Insti Gator, thanks for pointing out my post about the starting problems previously, I had actually completely forgotten about that event. I had it mixed up with other issues I've had with the ignition coils, but I do recall the issue now. It looks like what fixed the issue last time for me was either the ignition switch replacement or the throttle body cleaning. Based on the replies here, it looks like the throttle body and EGR valve cleanings should be my first steps. I'm going to call a couple of places tomorrow and see what they quote on either or both of the jobs, hopefully it doesn't break the bank. Thanks!

01tl4tl

you can diy the tb and iacv clean, with egr passage/port cleaning, and lube egr valve-
all in less than 2 hours at a very careful and casual pace

95CivicNOWa99TL

Ignition switch replaced, still stalling. Next step, EGR port.

PlatinumTL

You're having the exact same issue?

PlatinumTL

I had dropped it off at the auto shop 2 days ago, and they called me yesterday to say the throttle body, IAC, and EGR all looked OK. They did say that all 6 coils were misfiring and sending out codes, and noticed that there were a mix of old and new, off-brands and OEM. They said they would like to replace all 6 coils with OEMs and new spark plugs, just got the car back this morning. Costs wayyy more than I would've liked but I desperately needed the car back this week, so I told them to go ahead with it.

I'll see if it stalls out or the revs drop when starting over the next few days and report back.

PlatinumTL

Well, it didn't take long. Went out during lunch and came back to the car after about 45 minutes, and the car dropped rpms to about 300-400, but didn't stall yet. Going to call the shop back and see what they will do about this.

victus1

Boy, this sure sounds exactly like the heat soak problem having to do with winter gas. There is a TSB on this to replace the fuel regulator and ecu at some ridiculous price.
Otherwise, check for a bad fuel injector, or even a bad fuel regulator. Sometimes, when they start to go bad, they may act erratically depending on rpm, ambient air temp and pressure.

PlatinumTL

On the way home yesterday, had to make a couple of stops for groceries and such. Left the car for about 30-40 minutes, and came back and turned it on, and it stalled after a second or two. Took another 3-4 tries to get it started.

Taking it back to the shop after work today and see what they can do, esp considering I spent all that money on getting the coils and plugs swapped out, which looks like might not have been a problem to begin with.

CL Juice

sorry to hear about ur problems. That's crazy how u spent all that money replacing the coils. I've been having a similar problem for the past year. But my car stalls after sitting for a day or two without driving. cleaned my IACV, battery and starter change and still having my problem. I'm hoping you will find a solution to your problem.

Good luck

victus1

Try to isolate the problem. When it happens again, pop open the hood and start unplugging the connector to each coil, one at a time with the engine running. If you hear the engine rpm or sound change, then the fuel injector is ok. If you do not hear any change when unplugged, then you have a suspect fuel injector problem on that cylinder. And of course all your coils are ok since they are new. And remove the plastic engine covers ahead of time so you can quickly access the coil connectors when this happens.

fsttyms1

Check ALL grounds, and battery connections. Take off and clean even. Next thing i would look at is the TP Sensor.

mdavisii

Since the warm weather has entered Georgia over the past few days, I've been experiencing the exact same warm start issues as PlatinumTL where the car will fire up right away, but then immediately stall. I've done everything under the sun within the past 6-12 months:

-new IACV
-thorough clean of TB
-thorough clean of intake manifold (upper and lower to address EGR issue)
-new EGR valve
-seafoam 2x to just under half tank of gas

I am trying to determine my next approach as I type this. The two additional items I've been reading about on this site are the FPR and the TPS. In regards to the FPR, do you think I could rule this out based on the fact that the car starts up right away? Not once have I ever cranked the car longer than normal for it to start. Always starts right away, but during the hot soak period (20-45 min period after shutting off engine) it will immediately go to low RPM and stall.

Insti Gator

\


We're in this together now Platinum!! lol


OK - All of this is sincerely baffling since we have at least one person (mdavisii) and Platinum? Who have cleaned EGR and still had the problem..

What on earth could this be? It's obvious the warmer temps can contribute. With so many occurances how do we not have a definite solution yet? lol I guess the truth is that no 2 cars are exactly the same, we could all be having different probs.. Ain't that frustrating?!?!

I still have not done my EGR cleaning. How about a parts diagram pic of the entire EGR path - perhaps the clogging in the IM is just part of the problem. What if there is clogging deeper into the intricate little pipes of the EGR system that no tool can reach?

I'm thinking of it kinda like this : Imagine a bendable straw sucking up a milkshake. You can see straight down the first part of the straw and see if it is clogged and could clear it, but you cannot see nor clear the bottom half protruding into the cup. In the same way we cannot (without completely disassembling) see into the tiniest of EGR hoses to diagnose or clean them?

Thoughts?

Insti Gator

Oh - my reason being that my car will ALWAYS (that is: without FAIL) start if I catch the revs with the accelerator pedal and hold at approximately 2,000 rpms for 10 seconds.

And drives perfect until it is shut off and restarted. These symptoms mimic some sort of choke/constriction/blockage (causing the rough idle and car shutting off) and then the high revs to "clear" the system out enough to run. Once it is running the constant velocity of whatever keeps things in the green until it is shut off again and has a chance for the once open pipes to clog again?

mdavisii

Last year I had major EGR issues due exactly to what you indicated above here. After three attempts of thoroughly cleaning the EGR ports and still receiving the code, I broke down and took car to the mechanic. The mechanic found that I had a case of carbon buildup in the lower manifold to the point that the passageway was plugged about midway through (this was only found by the mechanic snaking a speedometer cable through to reach to the areas that cannot otherwise be reached). That simple, yet easily overlooked item cleared my EGR code once and for all. The unique thing about my situation is that I had close to 250k miles when this happened, so for most TL users this "advanced" EGR issue is not a common thing to occur (hence why it is not a part of the standard cleaning procedures).

Anyways, I say all of this to say that even with the most advanced cleaning efforts of the EGR system, I still experience the exact same symptoms that are being discussed in this thread. So I am still somewhat scratching my head. Someone mentioned that it could be the winter fuel that is being used while it is 80 degrees here in Georgia. Not sure if this is a "wait it out and deal with it" type scenario until the summer blend fuels are available, or if there is something here that really needs attention.

Insti Gator

mdavisii - Didn't notice your location till now - I'm in Lawrenceville, GA!

And yes the weather is abnormally warm all over!

AH! There is no cure! lol.. Hmm, so after his serious cleaning you still have it? dang.

Do you get your car running the same way I do? Hold the accelerator for a few seconds on warm startup?

PlatinumTL

So I had gotten the car back last Friday, but it has not died on my yet when restarted within 15-45 minutes of being driven. I haven't gotten a chance to completely test this so I'm still wary. The revs still drop somewhat when restarted but it hasn't completely stalled yet.

On this second trip to the mechanic, I thought they said they cleaned out the IAC valve, but the guy was hazy on what specific work they actually performed on it, seeing as how I had initially asked for this to be checked and cleaned out on the original trip out there.

Insti Gator

http://www.justanswer.com/acura/38jy...iding-car.html

^Okay here, someone mentions running their car with the EGR disconnected.. how safe is that?

One thing I think worth noting is that this problem starts OVER TIME! Think about it, there were not complaints, or reports of these issues on new cars, or ones under like 80,000 miles. However, as the miles build (all of us well over 100,000) we see this problem. Leading me to believe some kind of buildup - aka carbon buildup in EGR?

Insti Gator

HEY!

how about this for a test:
At the point where my TL doesn't start or does this usual thing above (won't be hard since it's pretty often in this weather) - I get under the hood and disconnect EGR immediately then try to start again and see where I'm at?

If there is no stumbling and car starts (possibly within 2 turns since maybe there's still some to clear) but if it stays running without choking out maybe I'll have an answer?

Unless of course I still have issues in the IM since I have not yet cleaned out the EGR passages in the IM.

Insti Gator

And this excerpt:

"EGR Control systems grew more sophisticated as automakers gained experience; Chrysler's "Coolant Controlled Exhaust Gas Recirculation" system of 1973 exemplified this evolution: a coolant temperature sensor blocked vacuum to the EGR valve until the engine reached normal operating temperature.[4] This prevented driveability problems due to unnecessary exhaust induction; NOx forms under elevated temperature conditions generally not present with a cold engine."

Explains why it only happens when the car is warm - or near/at operating temperature!

Oh and this:

" EGR in poorly set up applications can cause misfires and partial burns" - Hence the misfire codes EVERYONE gets when they have this problem and get CEL's

victus1

I have this problem on occasion....maybe once a week or so during the fall and spring. Never in the winter or in the summer. This leads me to believe that it may have something to do with winter gas and warm temperature (as stated in TSB-01-001 HEAT SOAK).

I have already cleaned the intake very thoroughly (not a spec of carbon). Cleaned the throttle body and IACV with carb cleaner. Removed the EGR valve and cleaned with carb cleaner. Also opened the bottom pin of the EGR with a screwdriver and sprayed cleaner in there to flush out the gunk. Also cleaned the EGR passage on the engine block. And I still have this problem. Maybe the EGR is failing erratically ....maybe a new one would fix this....who knows?

I also took out the MAIN RELAY and re-soldered all the connections, as one person reported this as a solution to his similar problem. Didn't work.



If you search the forum you will find a person's solution to this problem (sorry I don't have a link as I only saved these posts):

"i noticed while xmas shopping and going into a store for 30 mins n coming back out and cranking up the car it would immediately turn back off and on the second start up have a rough idle like a misfire... my mechanic inspected it and found all the symptoms of the tsb 01-001 on the fuel pressure regulator and pcm... called the dealer and got a price quote for both and the fpr was quoted @ 400 and the pcm was 1250.. does anybody have any experience or problems in this area. the bulletin said tht if one was changed then the otherhas to be changed too.. is this true can i get away with jus changing the fpr and getting rid of the rough idle it feels disgusting and dont wanna damage the engine?"

"YAY! Finally fixez this freakin problem with my hard starts by simply replacing the main O2 sensor along with a bad evap canister and shut valve! no more rough idles or hard starts for me."

victus1

Here are some more posts from members which I have saved (you can find them by searching in key words):



Problem:
"I've just had my 45K tune-up 2 months ago. At the time, they told me that there's a coolant leak. But since my car was still under the warranty (w/ only 4 days to go), they'll take care of free of charge.
Ever since that trip to the dealer, I've noticed occasional rough starts. I don't have any problem turning on the ignition. But right afterwards, the car shakes violently. Usually, I just turn off the engine immediately and re-try. The problem would _eventually_ go away (like after 2 tries). Last night, it happened again. But I decided to just drive off while the car's shaking. Guess what, while the car's in reverse and moving backwards, the engine just quit. All the lights on the dashboard lit up as if the key's in the "on II" position. The headlights were still on and the car's in reverse gear. I tried it again, same thing. On the 3rd try, everything was okay again. And I've tried 2 dozen times between then and now to see if I can duplicate the problem. But I have not been able to. So I can't take it to the dealer since I can't show them the problem. I've never had this problem in the 4 years that I owned this car. And the "check engine" light never came on once (it's still not on right now)."

Solution:
"Okay, I have an update on this. I took my car to Los Gato's Acura, the only dealer I've ever gone to since the day I bought my car. They said that a regular diagnostic would cost $120, IF they can't find any problems. The service adviser said that it would take about 1 hr. But 2 hours later they were still checking it. Then they broke the bad news to me: everything checked out fine. "Did you check the Fuel Pressure Regulator?" I asked. "Yep, it works just fine" was the reply. So I was ready to fork over 120 bucks for...NOTHING, then they asked me if I want a free car wash. In the 4 years that I've been there, I've always declined the wash because I didn't want them to put micro-scratches in the paint (I have a black TL). But this time, I thought "screw it! I'm not gonna pay 120 bucks for nothing." Well, what happened next is nothing short of a miracle.
While they were washing my car and moving it about in the lot, the engine stalled and failed. Even better, the check-engine light went on. That means an error code was logged in the computer. After checking it out for another 10 minutes or so, they said that it's the Fuel Pressure Regulator. The service rep said that the part alone would cost $750 because....it only comes in as a whole kit! And, I was just 1 month and 800 miles out of my warranty. Acura must have a secret program to fail parts right after warranty expires. But here's my lucky break: I told them that this problem occurred just before the warranty expired. I didn't bring it in because I couldn't duplicate the problem. Heck, it took them 2 hours just to accidentally get it to happen. So I wanted a good-will on the warranty. And.....they said "yes"! Is that sweet or what!!"




Another forum member said.....
"Hi all,
well, I don't think a new ECU will do anything to fix this problem. Think about it, if ECU is the problem then every 2000TL would have the same problem. The problem is caused by winter gas. My dealer fixed it by installing a timing fan, when my car shuts the fan will keep running for 15 mins to cool off the gas. That works great, and the problem never happened again ( i got it fixed 2 years ago, never happened again ever since)."


Another forum member said (regarding TSB-01-001).....

"Alright folks,

Got the whole story from the service manager at Acura of Bellevue (good people). He explained the whole problem to me in great detail and I cannot relay the info 100% accurately since I got lost at times, but I'll try.

The problem exists with the 2000 models in areas of the country that sell "winter fuel" in the winter months. After you drive the car and stop, the problem winter fuel in the lines will boil and separate. When you restart the car, the separated fuel will go through the engine and cause the rough idle. Only 2000 model years are affected because in that year, the US gov't told automakers that any fuel left in the lines can't be returned back to the tank for emissions reasons. I didn't ask why later models don't have the same problem..Acura must have found a workaround. Anyways, the way they fix the problem is that they replace the fuel pressure regulator "which increases the fuel pressure to reduce the potential of fuel separation". Not sure how, but this is what he told me. Because they replace the fuel pressure regulator, they have to change the ECU because the ECU is hard-coded with the old fuel pressure regulator's settings.

He also told me that even in those areas of the country that sell winter fuel, certain gas companies like Texaco and Chevron will not sell winter fuel, so stick with companies like them to avoid the problem all together. He claimed that Acura of Bellevue and Acura of Littleton, CO were the first to report the problem. He said that drivers in places like California will never see this problem because the fuel type is consistent all year round.

Whew, I hope I said it all correctly! Of course, the fix is under warranty, so I'm getting it done tomorrow. They're going to stop sending winter fuel to Seattle in a matter of weeks so I won't have to worry until fall, but might as well get it done now.

Hope this helps!

Casey

Update.....Got the fix all taken care of. As mentioned before, the instructions on my work order was "Perform hot soak bulletin. Perform repair as outlined in service bulletin #01-001". As Wayne said, the service guy told me that not all 2000s were affected, so that's why there's no official recall."

mdavisii

Hey we are probably neighbors, as I live in L'ville as well! But to answer your question, I do have to hold the accelerator to keep the idle at approximately 1500 rpms for about 10-15 seconds for the idle to smooth out. Afterwards, it is smooth as butter with no further issues.

Insti Gator

Awesome reads victus! It seems you've been dealing with this for quite some time then!


I like these 2 ideas best!

I think you're right on with the winter fuel! See, I haven't owned this car for a year yet and don't know how the problem will persist in the summer months! If it stops I think we'll have a winner!


OK - and so with the fan idea - it says, " fan will keep running for 15 mins to cool off the gas" does he mean the engine? Cause I don't know how a fan could cool off gas?! But I could understand a timer on the stock fan that would continue to run after shut off or a separate one altogether ties into the stock cooling system?