I never interpreted it like that, I'm just asking if that's what you meant b/c I already ran a pressure test.

 

At the end of the day, once ya have all the confirmation necessary, then make the call.

 

Before anything, I just wanna say that I haven't had a chance to work on the car due to crappy weather and work. But with the lack of any real diagnostic from my previous mechanic regarding the overheating issue, I'm going to have to do these tests and fixes to make sure that the leak is in fact internal. Hopefully the weather permits me to work on my car.

I never said otherwise; I was referring to the placement of the half-circle of rubber seal (which is not explicitly stated in the diagram).

I'm gonna have to check that out. Unfortunately, the Honda dealer two blocks away from me doesn't carry Acura parts, including the rubber seal. I'm also concerned that there could be a gap where the Thermostat Housing meets the part that it connects to. Could be a poor installation or either part is broken (for lack of a better word) and doesn't seal correctly.

I'll replace the hose and take pics of the old hose for you guys to give your thoughts on.

Nope, I returned the loaned pressure tester to my local auto parts store. I'll rent it out again and perform the pressure test with the testing configuration that you just described.

Thanks for clarifying, the manual doesn't do a good job of it.

I checked and it is pretty well attached on both ends.

I don't believe I saw anything like that, although I don't have an example to go by.

So I should be checking the Thermostat Housing where the hose attaches to, correct?

I'll check up on those before going to bed and will upload photos.

 

If in any doubt, just get a local independent shop to evaluate the cooling system before spending big bucks on replacing the motor. Gotta rule out the simple stuff first.

 

What implications does that have? Also, what's the fix for it?

This is the first car I've ever been mechanically engaged with so apologies for the dumb questions.

 

My only concern is that, are they willing to run all the tests? Like the mechanic I had check my overheating issue; he said it was coolant leaking inside the engine, but didn't run the necessary tests to validate his diagnostic. My previous mechanic that diagnosed my CEL said it was a cylinder leak but never ran a compression test or leakdown test. I'd hate to throw away money on some shop that's gonna tell me it's an issue that they haven't even validated. They're willing to tell me to spend +$1k on a fix that they themselves can't confirm whether the part is really at fault or not.

Quite frankly, I'm tired of this kind of service. I'm gonna post in the S. Florida thread on this site and see if anyone can recommend a good mechanic.

 

I have fond memories of the very first automobile that I became "engaged" to......well, long story short
......it was a learning experience to say the least. But, I eventually built up the courage to realize my own personal shortcomings and proceeded slowly as I learned the basics.

Ya gotta know your limitations and continously build upon your knowledge and skills.

 

I wish I could give it to a mechanic and trust them, but my 3 experiences so far have resulted in "diagnostics" that are based more off a flip of a coin rather than facts and evidence. Hell, the only reason I have this car right now is because the mechanic that inspected it before I bought it told me that the engine was good even though he heard a misfire (which he never mentioned to me until after the CEL went up).

Sometimes, you're thrown into the fire and gotta man up. I'm hoping someone in the regional forums can recommend a GOOD mechanic, but so far there haven't been any responses and I'm not holding my breath.

 

From my past experiences, to find anyone capable of doing any kind of honest trustworthy work for you ...... it's best to talk to friends, family, neighbors and co-workers.

There's a good chance they can personally recommend a person or shop to help you.
Also, check with local business merchants, the local papers, Angie's list and even a phonebook.

 

I ordered the Spill Free Funnel from eBay, should be here Thursday although I'm betting on Wednesday.

The next steps I will be taking:
1. Fill the rad and rad reservoir as per 01tl4tl's instructions. Then burp the cooling system and see how that works.
2. If the above fails to solve the problem, I will flush the coolant, replace the lower hose, inspect the thermostat+thermostat rubber seal installation+thermostat housing connection. Replace anything if necessary. Fill rad + reservoir then burp the system. Run a pressure test per 01tl4tl's instructions and place a piece of cardboard near the water pump per 3.2TLc's instructions. Check for leaks then see if the problem persists.

I still don't understand the implications of a rusty corroded radiator. If someone can explain along with what would need to be fixed/replaced, I'd appreciate it!

I'll keep looking, but 2 of the mechanics were recommended to me. The third one was a guy I met by my neighbor's house and then I found out that my brother-in-law had heard good things about him and was trying to call him up earlier to look at his car.

Thanks to everyone for all your help so far, I've learned so much from all of you and I could only imagine how much I'd be getting screwed if I hadn't known about things such as SRS reset, pressure tests, compression tests, leakdown tests, burping the engine coolant, etc.

Much appreciated!

 

An old neglected radiator which has residual build up will restrict the coolant flow through it and cause issues. It's easy enough to check by looking into the top of the rad....if the internal fins are caked up with stuff deposited upon them, you'll know. If it's funky, the water pump and T-stat may also be gunked up.

 

Thanks. I'll shine a flashlight at night and see if I can spot rust in the internal fins. As for checking the top of the rad, is sticking my finger in there good enough?

Gonna go clean the part where the thermostat housing connects to get a clearer view of the connection and see if it's metal to metal or if there's a gap. I'm gonna be using a degreaser on a paper towel to soften up the green stuff which I believe to be coolant then scrubbing it with a detail brush.

 

Okay, I managed to clean it a bit.

It appears that there's the slightest of gaps.

Can someone confirm whether this is a cause for concern or it should be okay and that perhaps the leak is coming from that area because the thermostat may have been installed wrong.

 

any leak is cause for concern- you may have the thermostat installed wrong per diagram we saw earlier,

ACIDIC crud and rust- aluminum radiator core,,,,hmmm how can that possibly be bad?
low flow thru core and flakes of crud getting into cooling system where it can restrict a passage or port and crud up the water pump fins/blades that move the coolant!

no don't stick your finger in the rad- that is bad news stuff!
flashlight will allow you to see if there is ANY buildup on the vanes- I can see it in your pics so you can see it live = that rad has problems
It its the serviceable type its taken apart and dipped in caustic material to loosen crud then a rod/brush is shoved thru each core- there a bunch of them in a line across the rad = got to have smooth open flow thru entire unit or temp changes will result!

the first mechanic who spent 7 minutes heard all he needed to with- I get white smoke on startup and it blahblahblah- (tech thinking) Sorry dude, but that's classic blown head gasket symptoms
and this car shows obvious signs of cooling system neglect and recent attempts at repair
too little too late in this situation

a leak down test isn't needed at all !, an attempt at compression test will show you where the head gasket is bad between 2 cylinders when it blows coolant out the open plug hole~
otherwise its only purpose is getting coolant in the techs expensive tool = not cool

 

I managed to peak inside between the radiator and the condenser and there didnt appear to be any rust on either side. I thought that may have been the internal fins, but I'm beginning to think the internal fins may actually be inside the actual radiator and can only be seen by taking the radiator apart. Can someone please confirm?

Also, if this is the Heater Hoses/Valves, I didn't see any leaks around that area, but I'll check again when the car overheats.



Thanks for the info. Looks like I'll have to get a rad shop to look at it. Hopefully they don't try and screw me over with half-assed diagnostics.

Well, I know there's air in the system, and as you mentioned, it needs to be burped out because it can mess with the cooling system.

And no matter if I replace my entire cooling system and engine, if I don't burp the air out, it will continue to have problems. To me, any mechanic worth their salt wouldve seen the air in the system and attempted to rule that out by burping the system. Am I wrong to think that? Sincere question, as you guys + the mechanic who inspected my cooling system know what you're talking about.

As far as him hearing about the white smoke, I didn't bring it up first that there was white smoke coming out of the exhaust; he brought it up, went to check the exhaust and there was no smoke (fwiw, this was after a cold start). Aterwards, I told him that once in a while, not that often at all, that white smoke will come out after a cold start (I've seen it personally about 3-4 times in the month that that I've owned the car). And the shop that diagnosed my CEL said there was oil getting inside the spark plugs and that, once in a while, smoke would come out of the exhaust because the spark plugs would burn up the oil. Is it possible the shop would've/should've seen engine coolant or the combination of oil+coolant in the spark plugs when they pulled one of them out? I even mentioned it to them,when I turned the car in,that the temp gauge had gone up to 3/4ths one time and they said they found nothing wrong with the cooling system (just mentioned that both fans work and it never overheated when they drove it around). To me, they would've connected the dots and said that the leak inside the engine is the cause for overheating.

As you mentioned, my cooling system has been neglected, so I'd like to make sure that's not the problem before I commit to an engine swap because I don't wanna screw up the other engine by overheating it.

And when I do get a chance to run the compression test, I'll post pics of the spark plugs so you guys can share your thoughts.

I'm no mechanic by any stretch of the imagination, but to me, it would seem logical to make sure that the cooling system is not at fault before pinning it on a blown head gasket -- even if it's just to protect the new engine from overheating.

 

so spark plugs are carrying oil = that's a bad start, often points to leaking head gaskets, bad piston rings and/or valve seals, all are bad news
Tech doesn't need much more info to know by looking under hood that probs are numerous on this car

cking the external fins of rad for rust- oh man you crack me up!!!
yes the INTERNAL fins and openings are observed thru rad cap opening to rad- inside the rad~
the only question on yours is: can it be opened, cleaned and saved, or is it the type you can ONLY throw away and get aftermarket unit to replace it
look at your pics of it with coolant level low enough to see inside the rad

FINS is a bad description on my part- look at the `oblong openings` inside rad- no nothing should be on the edges of them, or limiting their opening size

burping the system etc, not sure what you saw `burping`- was it the coolant flowing thru rad that you saw? or bubbles and fluctuation of level of fluid happening?
there are certain key words and symptoms presented- along with a quick ck of plugs or whatever, to tell a good tech that this car is not going to be any fun, at every turn more damage will be found,,bad wp and bad rad,,,yikes

Yes the fans run- that's nice- that's also not the root cause of the problem
The way they test drove it was not the way needed to show the real problem
and it didn't skyrocket to redline temp, so it must be ok,,enough to get off our property and down to some other chump~

Clearly- not acura trained/knowledgeable of the TL specifics people.
Even Honda dealer techs think our temp gauge moving is normal- because Hondas do it
But we all know that's a sign of danger!!

 

harbor freight tools will hook you up with a compression tester and the needed tools (allen wrench) for about 30 bucks, far less than any shop will charge you to inspect

removing the spark plugs and reading them is important- then crank engine over and watch for the missing coolant to come shooting out~
that's a simple test that will confirm if you have the worst situation
or maybe not!!

 

Thanks. It'd be nice if I had a pic of what a normal rad looks like on the inside looking from the rad neck down so I could compare it to mines, but I'll just have to make do with what you described.

When he topped off the rad, bubbles kept forming and popping. I remember you said that, after a major leakage, air would get inside the system and it needs to be burped. I've watched YouTube videos of the spill free funnel and how it works. The bubbles forming at the radiator and popping when the mechanic topped off the radiator were the same that happened in the video. I figured that was air in the system and mentioned it to the mechanic; he didn't make any comment to me about it.

Am I wrong in my analysis?

Well, if he was a good tech, wouldn't he have picked up on the rust that you guys saw inside the radiator? He didn't mention a word about it to me, but was ready to talk about major engine work and an engine swap. Was he going to allow me to pay to fix the engine without addressing the radiator or the leak from the thermostat housing? I don't know, but the fact that it was never brought up while +$1k repairs were his first & only suggestion was a sign for me to try to continue to diagnose it on my own and avoid him.

I agree and by no means was I complimenting their diagnostics, especially when I told them the temp gauge had gone up to 3/4ths prior to turning the car in and they said there was nothing wrong with cooling system when I got the car back. It's like, did they think I was making it up or something? I'm not crazy; I know what I saw...

 

I read the HF compression tester is not accurate, plus I believe my local auto store rents out a compression tester. I'll keep your suggestion of looking for coolant to come out in mind. Sounds like a great way to tell if the leak is really coming from the engine or not.

 

A compression test wont tell you if you have a blown head gasket, as 01tl pointed out. A proper leakdown test is time consuming, and works best with two people. You need someone, preferably strong, to hold a breaker bar on the crank bolt while you apply air to the cylinder. It's almost impossible to get the piston at exact top dead center to the point that it won't go back down when you apply air. You also have to make sure it's on the compression stroke.(50% chance each time.) You will get better results if you put unregulated shop air into the cylinders, 150psi or so, instead of using a %leakdown tester which drops the pressure down to 25psi or so.
Here's a better idea. That spill free funnel is the best test I've discovered other than leakdown. With the funnel in place, make sure the system is fully burped. Then let it cool down, making sure you maintain a few inches of coolant in the funnel. Disable the ignition, and have a helper crank the engine with the throttle wide open for up to 30 seconds. If you get any bubbles in the funnel, you've got a blown head gasket. You could also have a warped, porous or cracked head, or a warped, porous or cracked block, but typically it's the gasket with maybe a warped head.

 

Thanks for sharing! I'll be sure to give it a shot. One question: should I do the test before inspecting the thermostat gasket+lower hose (I found a leak around that area) or is it okay to just burp the system completely and proceed with test?

 

the compression test will show 2 cylinders next to each other with a low and even reading- IF the gasket failure is in the right place, or show if a cyl has roasted the piston rings
But the ol coolant shoots out of spark plug holes test= is a winner

Back in the day: If I were to recommend an engine swap or head gaskets, it would automatically include rad removal and cleaning and new thermostat-
You were not getting an official on paper `authorization to proceed estimate`- just a general look estimate,,,A quick look-see revealed to tech - `I know this thing is effed based on the bad color in rad and hoses leaking -ongoing prob etc`

But you have to be careful of word choices with customers, and TRY not make them feel worse by saying `You really screwed yourself buyin this here car bud, sorry`
Instead, tell you it needs an engine without the small details to overwhelm you
they will all be taken care of with the job- its how things are done
Of course you will specify every part you want replaced, they will be able to point to all the new parts and provide a complete list, in addition they will find a few other things that really need to be done now- be it brake fluid flush (max 3 years between- do you think yours was done hahahaha) or actual brake pads or muffler etc
seems to be the first time in a long while the car will be fully looked over and under

Im guessing in our rad burp diy there are pics of clean rad, it should stay shiny inside like new- not brown spots (bad) or any growth or discoloration on the cutouts/slots/whatever you want to call them= they are the fluid passages

 

HFT tools are not the quality of snap on - but will do fine for what we ask of them
if the compression tester is off 10-20 psi from actual, it doesn't matter- we are looking for consistency across the cylinders - follow book instructions on testing, have batt charger going or jumper car- to keep batt volts and engine cranking speed the same for each cyl

the tool at parts store is a free loaner- you leave a deposit that is returned when tool goes back to store
THAT tester will have been mishandled and abused by many users- most of whom had no clue how tight to screw it in and have damaged the oring seal!

get the hft, if you need more proof this engine is blown- its cheap peace of mind,
and you can return the tool if you don't like it! iirc its ~15$

 

Why are we still talking about a compression tester? If there was measurable compression loss, it would set a misfire code. He's got the 2nd best tool to diagnose a head gasket already, with the spill-free funnel, and a compression tester would be way down the list.

 

I'd fix any leaks first, if possible.

 

Hey guys, I have a question: what do I need to remove in order to get to the bottom screw of the thermostat housing? I'm thinking just the battery, but I'd like to hear from you guys.

I picked up the rubber seal today at the dealership and the spill free funnel will be arriving in the mail today.

I've decided to skip the first step as I'm pretty sure that leak near the thermostat can't be good. I'm gonna flush the system, inspect the thermostat rubber seal, and replace the hose, then burp the system (along with running the pressure test while placing a piece of cardboard under the water pump, then run the head gasket test). If that doesn't fix it, I'm gonna take it to two shops that said they'd inspect the cooling system and radiator for free, one of them has a 5 star rating on Yelp, to see if it needs to be replaced.

 

Since your doing the flush and thermostat might as well replace the radiator, very easy to install and the cheapest is anywhere from $50 - $150+ saw a DENSO for $75+ a clean flow functional radiator is very important part of the cooling system.

 

Are you comfortable spending the money to do head gaskets? I'd hold off on the radiator until you know about the head gaskets. What I mean is; a radiator is a good idea, but if you have no intention of doing the head gaskets, it's wasted money. Personally, if you do verify to your satisfaction that it needs head gaskets, I'd have a thorough inspection of the whole car done first, so you can see the big picture before you proceed.

 

If ya have a shop willing to competently inspect and diagnose the cooling system......that would be the most logical place to start, IMO. Why guess at the problem, especially if unsure of the situation. Head gasket or new motor are both big bucks, so consider the professional evaluation as a quicker and more efficient means of getting to the solution of what to do next.

 

I'll try one of the shops out tomorrow before I do anything, but let's think about it: the cooling system has air in it, there's a leak coming from the thermostat housing, two ziners have said the radiator appears to have rust in it, and there's a cylinder misfire. I don't seriously believe a shop is gonna waste their time with an honest inspection while doing it for free with so much shit being suspect.

And don't confuse a process of elimination with guessing. Guessing is what the last two mechanics that I've taken the car to, that were recommended to me, have done. As a matter of fact, my brother in law spoke to the guy who inspected my cooling system and they talked about my car. The mechanic said that, "if i had to bet, it's the head gasket." Maybe because I'm in IT and we do things different, but if they wanna bet, they should go to Vegas and bet with their wallet -- not mine. I don't give a damn how much more someone knows about mechanics than I do, if their diagnostics are based on flipping coins rather than pinpointing the culprit, they're an effin moron.

With that said, before I bring it to a mechanic/shop that is gonna inspect it for "free", I'd like to narrow down the list of culprits. I know if I bring it in and once they hear the misfire, they're gonna say "head gasket!" and not inspect any further, even though I can show them everything I've documented in this thread that shows that the cooling system is suspect, starting with the air in the system. I don't give a damn if they replace my entire cooling system and put in a brand spanking new engine -- if you don't burp the system, the engine will not cool properly.

We'll see, though. I'll take it to one shop -- air in the cooling system and all -- and see what they tell me.

 

Not the head gasket, but I'd swap the engine since there's a lot of stuff I can get done for free/cheap on the new engine while it's out. Fortunately, I have the money to do it. As far as thorough inspection goes, I've had bad experiences with the 3 mechanics I've dealt with so far. The only reason I have this car right now is because a mechanic inspected it and said that the motor was in good condition, even though he heard a misfire when starting it up and never mentioned it to me before I bought the car. I'm Cuban American and I have no problem admitting that Miami is full of latinos that are con artists and /or idiots who are bringing this country down and turning it into the country they destroyed before coming to America.

I'd soon learn to do my own thorough inspection before I'd trust a mechanic down here to do one.

 

According to two ziners, my rad is definitely suspect, so I'll consider your suggestion before doing anything. Let's see what one of the shops have to say about my cooling system tomorrow. I'll make sure to bring up the radiator in case they don't mention anything.

 

It appears as though your batting average isn't very good with finding a competent trustworthy mechanic. You have my wholehearted sympathy. If ya bought the car with issues after a mechanic's poor inspection and can't get any real confirmation from the two previously recommended mechanics on the present issues......(other than needing a new motor), your chances are rather slim to none with the free "5 star" inspection.

Unfortunately, your only real alternative may possibly be to go with the new motor if ya can afford it or just get rid of the car and move on. In the meantime, perhaps another local Ziner near your area could assist ya with some "DIY" troubleshooting. Can ya even trust any of the local mechanics to install the new motor ???

 

I'd put the car up on the market, even with the CEL, just to see what I can get for it but I've gotta be able to fix the overheating issue first. With both issues, I'd probably end up taking a big loss and it'd be a while before I'd able to sell it.

And thanks to you guys, I know of a few tests I should run before buying another used car ever again.

As far as mechanics/shops go, for some reason (maybe I haven't been burned by it yet), I'd trust them to install something correctly rather than to properly diagnose an issue.

With that said, I'm gonna burp the system before taking it to the shop today. I would call them up and ask them if they'd need me to do that before bringing it in, but that'd be a stupid question. Let's see just how a thorough of a test they run and what they tell me.

If I end up having to put in another engine, I'd put the car on the market just to entertain offers and see if I can get back some of the money I put into it, but probably just end up keeping the car (assuming everything else is in good condition).

 

yes burp it the book way so that's all working right, a known starting point of your journey
Likely the rad shop will open cap and watch flow with temp gauge in the fluid
flow rates at idle and with rpm are good indicator of clogging inside
Its not hard to see if the wp is leaking from its DRIP HOLE under the car
it may not drip enough with engine off to show on the cardboard on floor- more of a 16 psi operating pressure issue~
the white trail from drip hole is easy to identify

Next the shop should test for head gasket by sniffer thing in rad opening looking for exhaust gas, there are a few testers for this
If they say rad is majorly clogged we can assume ~without doubt~ the engine is toasted from many overheats by past owner, be it head gaskets or warping now of head

I was going for the simple test with cking compression- the real intent being to crank engine over and watch for spewing coolant from plug hole = blown gasket

 

I've checked the manual and it seems that the only time the manual talks about burping the system is when doing a coolant flush (remove drain plug then loosen bleeder valve/drain bolt, wait for all liquid to come out, then tighten both back up).

Since I'll be using the spill free funnel, I *believe* (not sure) that the bleeder valve doesn't have to be loosened.

After watching many videos on YouTube on how to use the spill free funnel, along with the instructions offered here and in the manual, I wrote down the following the instructions. (Some one please double check!)

 

Sounds about right, although I like to get in 5-10 minutes at around 1500 rpm. A loose definition of burping a cooling system is to run it until all the air is purged from the system. Honda's procedure just tells you how to do it efficiently. I don't think you're ever going to get the cooling system burped, because I think you have a blown head gasket,which is showing up as a steady stream of bubbles that never stops. That alone MIGHT be enough of a diagnosis. If your previous mechanics' experience has been 5 hondas in a row, with a steady stream of bubbles that needed head gaskets, that's what he's gonna tell you. If he's comfortable with that diagnosis, you should be too, as it shouldn't cost you anything for a missed diagnosis. What I mean is, if he does head gaskets and the problem persists, you shouldn't have to pay. Most all states have a bureau of automotive regulation or such that should afford you at least that much protection. I have seen a LOT of hondas with symptoms like yours that ended up needing head gaskets, eventually.
I was never comfortable with the steady stream of bubbles while running because we could never back it up with a pressure test, exhaust sniffer, or the color changing chemicals. The very few that we did cylinder leakdown testing ($150-200+), weren't conclusive until we skipped the tester and applied 175psi shop air to each cylinder. That, in my opinion is the gold standard test. In descending order after that would be spill free funnel cranking, spill free funnel running, pressure tester pumped up to 4psi or less while cranking, exhaust sniffer, color-change chemical kit, pressure test cooling system with plugs out.With the spill free funnel, you've got the ability to almost match the best professional test, and beat the others as well. Since we started using the funnel method, we have been 100% accurate on diagnosis, and haven't done a single cylinder leakdown test for coolant consumption. Well 100% other than the civic that had a porous block! No, the customer did not have to pay for the diagnosis or un-needed head gasket repair.

 

^^^ Excellent advice from a well seasoned mechanic.
Really, at this point.....try what ya can and then get a confirmation, so that ya can move forward with your car's issues. There's not much more that can be said until ya do the stuff advised.

 

Thanks. Believe me, I have no problem accepting a BHG because I'd like to get this resolved ASAP. My main concern is doing an engine swap and finding out that the cooling system is not operating correctly. Not only would I void the warranty on the new engine, but I could do damage to the new engine and eventually be back to where I started.

As far as a never ending burp being a symptom of a BHG, you're right. I read about it in one of the YouTube video comments about some guy who waited 45 minutes to finish burping and it never did. He also concluded it was a BHG. Thanks for confirming.

If that symptom doesn't present itself, you guys have provided other tests that I can run to find out if the head gasket is suspect. I won't even bother with a leakdown test if these tests fail.

All the information given here has been solid. I've learned so much from you guys. You're all heaven-sent. If I could donate money, I would. Better to give you guys the money than to give it to mechanics who have no intention of getting down to the issue. I can only hope to return the favor some day in the form of paying it forward. I'm forever grateful. I'll keep you guys posted.

 

try a search for post by me with burping cooling system in the search
a few years ago- last year? I posted the exact info from the book
yours didn't have a `refilling coolant` paragraph hidden on the next page?
It should!
that bolt at rear of engine block is NOT a purge hole!!!!!!
its a block drain for when you are changing the coolant- to get trapped fluid from inside engine- out

ON your car: heater temp to full hot- FAN on full to! open car doors to let heat escape while you sit inside after the first cycle of fan at idle- 2 time of fan cycle at 2000 rpm
then again cycle at idle
if its airtight that will move all the air out
BUT
I think we know better~