tophjoe

Am I the only one that had problems changing the spark plugs? The front three were fine, but DAMN, those back three were ridiculous. Is there an easier way to change 'em, like moving stuff around, or is that about how it goes?

01tl4tl

see the DIY section for complete instructions
use a 9 inch extension to get into the rears- make one with a 3 and 6 inch put together if thats whats in the toolbox
lean over the side of the car across the fender- use a blanket to cushion the car from your weight
some remove the strut bar for access- not everyone does
Use thread `anti sieze` to ease install, and a rubber vac line stuck on the top of the plug acts as a long finger to lower the plugs about 6 inches down into the hole - then start by hand/fingers- to avoid cross threading- very easy to do if not careful
Torque with tool or use method on box- 13 foot pounds is spec iirc- engine cold of course

bibledriver

I do it from the front and have to problems, but I am sure it depends on the tools used too.

. . . for sure

fsttyms1

They are easy to do. Get a blanket and lay on the motor. If you have the type-s remove the 2 bolts that hold the IMRC motor in place on the back of the intake manifold and it will give you more room.

Phrosttz0

yep easy if you just lay over the motor like Kris stated.. its really a breeze.. you using a socket extension?

Phrosttz0

yep pretty sure I used your diy, or tips to change my plugs....

blak_wit_blak

what kinda spark plugs you guys recommend? something that i can just go to an autozone to grab....

01tl4tl

only some zones carry ngk, but kragen has them
NGK Iridium IX,
just under 7 bucks each - unless you search for a 25% off coupon-

dont use any 2 dollar plugs or 4 prong plugs- they are not the approved plug,
and they will not work
dont use other foreign name plugs
NGK - Iridium -
get the $1 pack of spark plug anti sieze, apply lightly to middle threads of new plugs- you dont want any getting into the engine- so stay away from the first and second threads!

Make sure you have both a 6 and 3 inch extensions, for the special spark plug socket- the kind with rubber inside, or magnetic tipped.
Otherwise- forget it until you buy one!!
A short length of vacuum hose- 1 foot- from parts store.
You slip it on the end of the new plug tip, and lower it down into the hole with ease.
Gently start the threads ~by hand~- that way you can feel if its going in right- or trying to crossthread, thats bad~
follow the directions on tightening that are on the box

Work on COLD engine only- put a blanket over the fender and lean across to do rears- the 9 inch extension (put the 3 and 6 together) will fit perfect in the rear plugs- with a space for your hand and the ratchet to all fit.
Practice on 1 front to see how it all fits together- then do the rears-
then the front

Bearcat94

NGK IX Iridium

Try a Kragan's affiliate for possible in stock. Likely need to wait a day or two though.

01tl4tl

wow bear- what `in the sticks` kragen do you have?
these are a kept in stock item, very common use

Are those numbers somewhere in the arctic?
or do your parts arrive by outrigger canoe?

achen0122

haha ive never even heard of kragen

01tl4tl

aka parts america and half a dozen other names across the country

TX-Miner

Kragen (in Californai and AZ), also known as Checker (NM, Texas), also known as Schucks (WA). Think of them as the Pep Boys meets AZ for the west. Just recently purchased by O'Reilly Auto.

01tl4tl, and others,

What is wrong with Bosch Platnum +2 (or +4) plugs, other than not being OEM? I haven't changed plugs in several years, but the original Platnum plugs were about the best plugs back in the single electrode days. Have they fallen that far behind NGK?

Miner

6MTUA5

iTrader: (2)

bibledriver

The problem is that the Japanese built NGK yields the best response. The +2 or +4 are a gimmick. Just having more electrodes means nothing. Physics says that the path of least resistance. It will inevitably use one prong predominately and unless fed by much more power (there are resistors in the plugs) then you are gaining nothing, but a placebo, making you feel that your plugs are better. The iridium has best conductivity available, and are long lasting. NGK Iridium are shown to provide best response.

01tl4tl

We run a super hi energy system- with coil on sparkplug- so the plugs are very special.

The NGK Platinums were stock on gen2, now, the newer metal with better performance is Iridium
Many of us run Iridium IX in gen2, and gen 3 runs a straight Iridium.
iirc, IX is slightly higher performance type design, but not listed in books for gen3
The newer gen3 come with NGK Iridium

The stock plugs have 1, super fine wire, and thats all the engine likes.
Additional electrode wires dont help, and have shown a tendancy to foul or wear out quickly

Denso brand are approved but cost more per plug, and last fewer miles than NGK, in the general experience here. About $6.75 per plug. denso are 10

Disclaimer- Acurazine does not recommend any particular product- this post is
MY opinion~~ from reading other members experience and my own choice of brands

I remember back a year ago----when I thought- !!!!50 BUCKS for plugs!!!- you have got to be kidding me!!
Now I have trick suspension, brakes, tires- lights....

That 50 bucks was a ~gateway drug~ purchase- it gets you hooked

then you want the hard parts.... money disappears...you dont spend time with the family...
you have withdrawn to the garage and go on the mystery test drives all the time....

bibledriver

lol I am contemplating spending the bday money now, or waiting til i get more accrued to do a BIG mod. haha.

Starts innocent and euphoric . . .

TX-Miner

Since the goal of the plug is to create the point for a spark to pass, a high energy, coil on plug system would seem to be less dependant on the plug.

I can see the benefit of iridium vs platnum vs iron. I honestly haven't seen a fouled spark plug since the 80s. If one can foul a plug with unleaded gas in a fuel injected stock engine, I'm impressed.

I guess I'm just too old school, grew up when a year between plug changes was a good year.

Miner

bibledriver

Plug is the weakest link. Good one will go like a champ, bad ones are like a chronic infection: just don't do quite seem right, and hard to tell until you get rid of them. What's the point of four electrodes? not like there are ever four arcs to ignite rather than one.

Legend2TL

My guess on what is wrong with the +4's is that it is trying to be a true racing plug with a side gap, were there is no side electrode (the spark jumps from the center electrode to the spark plug barrel, these are machined parts and hence expensive). Have the four electrodes kinda eumlates the barrel side electrode of a racing spark plug, but for whatever reasons the end result is not great.

I used the Bosch +4's on a 1989 Legend and they had a minor misfire, went back to the single electrode Bosch Platinum and worked great. I have also used the +2 Bosch's on a Northstar V8 (on a Cadillac) recently and they worked very well.

The original Bosch Platnium's were are great for the older Honda/Acura's with single coils (coil/distributor/wires). I even heard from some 2G Legend owners that had great results with them as well, those engines are coil on plug like the J32 motor. On whatever older Acura and Honda I used them on, the cold-starting was better than the OEM NGK or ND (both of which were NOT platinum or iridium). Had only slight wear on the center electrode when replaced at 60K miles.

The newer Honda's and Acura's most of the folks I've talked to or seen on the internet seem to stick with the NGK's on the J series motors. I'd have to agree with your analogy that Bosch has fallen behind the times in tech. I've never seen anyone on here write about their experience with the Bosch Platinums on the J series motors. So I'm curious how well they work on that motor, but I'm not going to be a guena pig.

The Bosch Platinums have the finest wire center electrode out there, but it is covered on the sides with the ceramic insulator. So in theory it acts like a very sharp center conductor which is optimal for creating a spark. When you want to promote a spark plamsa a charp edge is the best source. However as the Bosch Platinum's were the center platinum needle does errode slightly into the insulator. So the plug perfromance does degrade slightly.

The more modern plugs from NGK, Denso, Champion, and Delco's have a small platinum or iridium tip (0.4mm to 1.0mm) with sharp edges. The purpose of the platinum and iridium is to have a very hard metal with a high melting temperature, that does not erode away over lot of time.

The constant arcing of the sparkplug and high combustion temperatures errods away the metal which becomes less sharp. That starts to limit the when and how the spark propagates. This is turn affects the burning of the air/fuel mixture and how fast and when it burns. That affects how much of the chemical energy is released into thermal and ultimately mechanical energy.

Getting back the J-series motor, the spark gap has increased (1.1-1.2mm?) over what was used in the 80's with higher voltage coils, so having sharp edges on the electrodes is important to provide a point-source for the electrons to arc across the gap. This higher voltage also erodes the plug elctrodes faster. Since the gap and voltage has increased, the choice and shapre of the spark plug electrode materials has become more critical on engines, this is probably why certain more modern motors are more selective of the spark plugs.

Alot of rambling there, but for more modern Honda/Acura's I'll stick with the NGK Iridiums.

TX-Miner

Legend2TL,

Thanks for the info. I too had an 89 Legend and it ran like a female dog in heat with Bosch Platnum. I'm not sure what plugs are in my TL, nor my NSX for that matter, because they seem to work just fine.

I can see the benefit of Iridium over Platnum even though Platnum are the OEM spec. Of course at 4 times the price, I can probably convince myself to try a set of platnum plugs and change them twice as often as some NGKs.

Of course I have somewhat adopted the "Replace on failure" approach. I may even not change the water pump when I change my timing belt. My labor is free so if I have to go in a second time 3-5 years later to change the water pump, I can change the timing belt a second time early. If I'm paying someone to do the work, that is a totally different story.

Miner

01tl4tl

you're right- why bother replacing the very heart of the engine with the belt that drives it,
whats a little overheating and aluminum head damage when you can save 30 bucks now~

OE plug was NGK Platinum- the new metal is Iridium so its not a risk at all, and the gen3s come with Iridium-
stick with NGK Iridium IX for gen2 ,,,, NGK Iridium for gen3, and you are all set

TX-Miner

Tom,

You're implying that I wouldn't be able to identify the signs of a failing water pump prior to catastrophic engine failure due to overheating. The failure mode of a water pump typically is 1) bearing failure or 2) seal failure. My 89 Legend developed a water leak in the replacement WP about a year after it was changed, clearly I gained nothing by replacing it when the TB was done (I did nurse it about 2 years until the leak rate was significant, then changed it and the TB).
The rule of thumb to replace the water pump when replacing the TB is because the majority of the labor is involved is already accomplished. As I said, since labor = opportunity cost = $0 (in this case), replacing the WP when it fails is an option for me.
So is installing an NGK Platnum plug now and 3 years later replacing it with and NGK Platnum and so on, or installing an Iridium plug now and replacing it 6 years from now.
While I may only have 78 posts, that does not mean I am not qualified to post unconventional thoughts and questions.
Miner

01tl4tl

I should have used my sarcastic font~

What I meant was as a warning to others who may contemplate not doing the pump with the belt. There are dealers who sell the pump as a seperate job- if it needs it!!
Thats like saying if the valves need adjustment- when dont they!

I cant say how long the Platinum will last vs Iridium, I figure 60k miles for either, since honda is willing to run them to 105...IMO they lose some after 50k and its a slow downhill from there
The Iridium are 6.50-7 bucks each- arent the plats more?

I had a water pump go on a fwd car, didnt see the tiny drip at teh inspection port- even though it was checked a few times.

IMO- On the TL service - its new tensioner pullies new belts new pump new hoses new hose clamps....

Legend2TL

Hey small world, my 89 legend replacement water pump failed ~50K miles after replacement. Coolant began leaking from the inspection hole. Don't know for certain but my guess is that I used Prestone Antifreeze with it's large amount of silicates that cause the water pump seals to wear quickly. I never used to believe in OEM premixed anti-freeze until that, so now I used the premixed Honda stuff for all my Honda/Acura cars and motorcycle.

Legend2TL

Unfortunately plug gaps have increased to get a larger spark over time. The gaps are now 1.1-1.2mm where in the 80's they were 1.0-1.1mm. The higher voltage has increased on the coils to allow this larger gap. One reason for the gap is modern engines use a much wider range of air/fuel ratio's for better fuel economy and cleaner emmisions. Combustion chamber temperatures have also increased some so plug requirements are harder now than older cars (60's and 70's).

It used to be that you gapped plugs at the low-end of the range and as they wore they increase their gap. When replaced you'd be closer to or above the larger gap.
With the platinum and iridium plugs I gap them toward the upper end of the range to get a larger spark (assuming the coils are producing their proper voltages). I see practically no wear on the center or side electrodes these days, the edges stay sharp and extremely few deposits. My theory is the larger gap produces better flame promotion and better fuel burn efficiency in the combustion chamber.

I haven't fouled a plug since my 89 Legend, the easy way to do it was to start a cold engine for ~10 seconds (i.e. move the car in/out of the garage to wash it) a couple times. Then try starting it again, I actually had to remove the plugs and blow compressed air on them since they were so wet. On newer Honda's and Acura's I've noticed this is less a problem since my guess is the cold-start enrichment has dropped dramatically from 80's fuel injection. Still I let the cold engine run for ~30 seconds before shutting down.

TX-Miner

My WP failure was where the "melt out" plug was sealed onto the casting. It started about a year after I had the service done, and was a very small leak only when I was in street traffic during the summer months. Over the course of a couple of years the rate increased to the point I isolated it to the WP.

I am not sure it was an OEM or aftermarket pump, but it was a new unit.

Miner

bibledriver

So, how about problem # 2? if you bearing fails it may or may not give you good notice. Free labor is nice, but still not best practice. As Tom said, for others sake (which is almost everybody) Replace the WP with T-belt. Anybody telling you otherwise, take with caution. If that bearing does fail we are talking about more than a smelly smoky antifreeze spill. We are talking complete engine replacement, except in miners case, where he may have somebody rebuild his heads and possibly low end for cost of parts alone. For me (and probably you) not so much. I will do them in tandem along with other known failure items (tensioner mainly). WP is not a whole lot more $. You, my friend, are unconventional, which is fine. It does come at a risk. I am not a gambler myself

TX-Miner

I didn't used to be quite as unconventional, but over the last 10 years have started thinking differently. Perhaps it is early onset senility!

Other than complexity in my life, I could spend much of my days working on cars and computers. I know that in many cases, changing good parts because the level of effort to replace them separately is good policy, and I probably will replace the WP when I do replace the TB. I would like to take my old WP and run it through some MIL-SPEC accellerated aging to see how much longer it will last (small sample, I know).

Miner

01tl4tl

Since a good portion of this forum's readers are not skilled techs, and the timing belt job is far more than they care to take on...- you will find the general consenus to be- replace everything while you are in there!
already spending 600 bucks labor and the potential to have a $45 tensioner fail or w/p go bad and result in terrible things to the engine--- about $2500 repair range...
its way better safe than sorry.
For the very skilled, who dont mind big labor doing a job twice-- to save 100 bucks now, thats their life choices.
Me- I got tired of leaning over engines years ago- so I prefer to go in and fix/replace everything once, and do preventative maitenance ~to excess~on the rest of the car.
Amazing what yearly change of power steering fluid & brake fluid will do for those parts life, and general operation -IMO- and that of the maitenance schedule

TX-Miner

Tom,

I'm a whopping 7 years younger so I can totally relate to you about getting tired of leaning over an engine. I think we are the 2 oldest people on the forum.

I got involved in some reliability centered maintenance analyses when the "Peace Dividend" reduced the DOD budget and we didn't have the money to replace everything every time. PM is a good thing, esp changing fluids that breakdown over time. Mechanical items are a little more subjective when it comes to PM.

Miner

01tl4tl

I tend to believe the parts makers are well aware of design life limits---
and build to that, plus a safety margin. Sometimes they make it to the replacement schedule- some parts exceed!!- and some fail early,,, usually during the hottest day on record

My opinion, based on at least 10 % researched fact~
is the additives in coolant break down over time, in this case- about 5 years, (just like it says on the replacement gallon jugs of the stuff on when to replace next)

At which point it goes acidic- in an aluminum environment- anyone who has replaced a radiator knows what this results in!!
One could guess that changing the coolant with honda stuff ~may~ extend the life of the radiator and the water pump and seals...

but if miner wants to practice on his twice- then come replace mine once- that would be great!!!

TX-Miner

Uncle. I give in to end this discussion.;-)

I going to change my timing belt, water pump and sparky plugs right now.

miner

01tl4tl

we can all rest easy now-- thanks miner!
I will get 2 extra hours of sleep, safe in the knowledge that once you get in there and find the water pump really did have some play- and that tensioned drive belt system hides that sort of thing- so you replaced it now.... and found 3 exhaust valves tight and 2 intakes loose....
have you considered a fuel induction cleaning service/treatment before you do anything else? seafoam or wynns or honda's...
May as well have a clean home for the new spark plugs~
Now can we rehash which brand plugs?- or perhaps the better color/brand of anti sieze, and should it be applied to threads #2-4, or a vertical stripe up the length of the threads?
The relative merits of each method....

TX-Miner

Anti-Sieze? No man, I'm going to put those plugs in with Loctite Red. I don't want those babies coming out.

01tl4tl

Make sure to use an air gun to get them in at the correct torque too!!
The use of 2 universal joints and 3 socket extensions- is great way to make sure it goes in-
threaded right or not!!!


for the noobs- red means this is my sarcastic voice

Deflocks

hate to jack the post but, so my car has been tossing out misfire codes and i have already put in new plugs on all.......... it was working perfect and just now it poped out those codes. Ive changed the plugs about a little over 1week ago, help?!

TX-Miner

Possibly a loose connector at one of the coil packs. Perhaps the coil pack not installed properly (loose screw, poor connection on plug).

Is the misfire code specific to 1 cylinder? If so, remove that coil pack and move to another cyl. If the problem misfire moves to the new cyl, the coil pack is likely bad (perhaps a bent pin).

Miner

bibledriver

Also, what kind of plugs did you use. Did you gap them yourself (if not iridium plugs) or did you ensure they were pregapped? Sounds like the engine is running fine; is this correct (just CEL and codes)?

bibledriver

SWEET

Don't forget a new t-belt autotensioner

After doing my T-belt (first time on the j series) after work one night and I didn't finish until time for work in the AM, I am GLAD that I replaced the little extras!