stanclub

I have posted another thread about this car thinking it might be the transmission, but now it seems the problem in braking system. Hopefully, someone can help me with this.

Got a 01 TL-S, which has problem that front wheel brake holding up so tie that car can barely move.

The car will run fine from point A to point B. After reaching point B, I shut off the engine and process my task. After finishing my task, I get back in car, and start the engine then drive back home ......... as soon as I start driving, I can start to feel brake holding tie a bit heavier than usual, and I can hear a bit of squeaky noise ( from brake, I suppose ) when the car start running after stop. After few miles with several stops at red light, the brake just keep on getting more tie, till the point that car can hardly move.

I had same problem tonight when coming back from Walmart nearby my house. I then stop at the side of road, and shut off the engine for few seconds. Then, as soon as I start the engine again, I was able to move a bit better. Fortunately, I was just about a mile away from house, so once the brake loose up a bit, I drove home. Then as soon as I step off the car, I can small the burnt from my brake, and the heat to my face when I get close to the front wheel.

The interesting thing I found was that my sister was having the same problem when she had the car before she went to NY for 2 weeks training ....... car runs fine in the morning to work, then problem at the afternoon when coming back home ......... always then 2nd trip.

The transmission tech does not think it is the tranny problem ( obviously not ). To try to fix the problem, I have replaced both front wheel brake calipers, and both 3rd & 4th tranny fluid pressure switches ( found a code after scanning, it suggested issue in 4th switch ). Problem still exist. What could be wrong?

01tl4tl

did you bleed the system in the special TL order?--due to ABS plumbing

start at driver front, then clockwise around the car
LF RF RR LR
in addition- you had lines open to replace calipers, you MUST do 2 ABS active stops from 45 mph to stopped
accelerate and repeat full brake effort with abs pumping the pedal under your foot,

Find water, gravel, swerve wheel-whatever it takes to make the pedal shake under your
foot at full brake effort

If the 2nd session had firmer pedal - there was air trapped in the controller- cant get out with normal bleed, must do the ABS active stops to get air out from it.. and into the regular system
rebleed all and you should be good

Which wheel has a smell?

01tl4tl

did you prefill the new calipers with brake fluid before install?

what brand calipers? for a TL or Legend?
what brand pads?
did a shop do the brake work? not many know the special order or special drive test

totaledTL

If they are still dragging then you got defective calipers, or maybe an ABS module is bad but I've never heard of one doing that. Are you sure it's the brake calipers causing it? Were the old pads burnt/glazed? Are the rotors discolored from excessive heat?

Update: Just read this thread. https://acurazine.com/forums/showthr...0#post13132510
Read the last post by Skirmich- maybe that's your issue.

stanclub

Thanks for the instruction. I will re-bleed the system again starting from driver side, and clockwise to all other 3 wheels. Then do 2 of ABS active stops (45mph full brake); my house has large area of gravel where I can do the ABS active stop.

Just out of curiosity; when I was bleeding both new calipers ( mistakenly started from passenger ), I found the passenger side pump out fluid smoothly, but driver side is very hard to pump the fluid out, indeed, I don't think the fluid was coming out at all ( the reservoir fluid level did not even drop ). Do I have driver side brake line clogged with something? If so, should I replace or clean the brake line/hose before re-bleeding all 4 wheels and ABS stops, then re-bleed? Is it better to replace the driver side caliper again after brake line is replaced/cleaned?

stanclub

Thanks for the help. I hope that is not the ABS module. It seems like a bad caliper, so I replaced it. However, before and after replacing new calipers, the issue is always on driver side front only. Although, the new calipers seems to improve the condition a bit better ( kind of ), but the problem is still serious.

Both pads & rotors are looking fine.

stanclub

It is for TL, and I did it myself which I have done it on few cars already. I did not know about the special drive test & bleeding order, but now I know. Thanks for sharing.

By the way, is this special method required for all ABS vehicles? I have couple Toyota & Honda, and sometime in the future I will have to bleed the brake fluid on them. Should I follow the same order for bleeding, and do the ABS drive test on them as well?

No, I did not prefill the new calipers with fluid, but just keep pumping through the bleeding head on brake till fluid is fully out; I have a medium size (6 gallon size, I think? ) fluid pump that use air compressor. Should I prefill the caliper before installing it?

01tl4tl

calipers are already on- we are way past prebleeding

if you have not done the correct order yet- start there

then the test stops- if the 2nd stop had firmer pedal= there was air hidden still
so continue with rebleed all

if the pedal remains the same, air not the problem- keep looking

All calipers should let the fluid out easily
try opening the bleeder nipple 1/4 turn and see if flow improves

DO NOT pump/push the brake pedal all the way to the floor- doing so can damage the master cyl rod seal (info for noobs)

01tl4tl

should take approx 1.5 qts to fully flush the TL system,,
it will fool you with early signs of clean fluid, but keep going for more to be safe
Once you open a bottle of brake fluid its `6 month in re-sealed bottle` lifespan starts the countdown
may as well use it up making the car ~extra done~

01tl4tl

have no idea on other car makers and bleed order, ck their websites and repair book
the TL order is in the owner book and the shop manual

but I would guess that old school `farthest first` is out the window for modern ABS cars,
whats farthest in tubing distance may be the wheel closest!!

01tl4tl

pull the suspect caliper off the bracket to inspect both sides of rotor and the pads
any cracks in pads- heat signs, blue on rotor,

caliper piston may be crooked in the bore or just a bad rebuild and wont move right
Test with 2x4 in caliper to prevent piston from popping out,
as helper presses brake pedal 3/4 to the floor and releases
Never all the way to the floor!

return to seller as needed

01tl4tl

reading back to where you said res level wasnt dropping with 1 caliper,,,
can you watch up close, use clear tubing and manual bleed that caliper
If its not filled and totally bled,, what kind of brakes can you expect

stanclub

Thanks for the advise.

As I replaced driver side caliper, I have tried opening more on the bleeder nipple, and the fluid just did not want to come out like the passenger side does. My friend suggested it might be clog in the hose or line for the driver side.

I am sorry to ask, but what do you mean by "firmer stop"??

TLer trash

It sounds to me like you've got a bad brake hose. Caliper dragging and poor fluid flow point right to it.
Try this. With the wheel off the ground, press hard on the brake pedal with the engine running. Turn it off, get out and try to turn the wheel. If it is very difficult to turn, open the bleeder. If it's now easy to turn, you probably have a restricted/deteriorated brake hose.
That was the quick and easy test. Technically you should work out from the master cylinder to isolate a restriction. 99 times out of 10, its just the hose.

stanclub

Thank, guys, for all your help and advise. I have new update in my progress!


I have tried the inspection method that TLer trash suggested. No luck. So, I decided to bleed it again ...... still no fluid coming out of. So, I removed the brake hose, and found no fluid coming out through the line either. I suppose that means I have problem either the clog in the line, or from ABS.

stanclub

Should I bleed the caliper when brake stepping method now, instead of suction tool? As I mentioned above, I found that no fluid dripping out of line, after brake hose is removed. Any suggestion what is the next step to process?

01tl4tl

you removed the line from the brake caliper? and no fluid came out???
replace that line
fluid should drip at a fast rate from unhooked hose! gravity in action!

firmer pedal on ABS test stops means the pedal has a more solid feel and doesnt drop as far as the first time,,
as if there were air in the line and you did a quick double pump of the pedal - it gets firmer/stiffer, same kind of feel

totaledTL

He has a restriction or clog or ABS issue. I wouldn't be concerned w/ bleeding air until you figure out what's preventing fluid flow.

What about the hard line to that side?

ANC297

iTrader: (2)

You can try a vacuum bleeder, or a pressure bleeder, it may have enough force to free the clog. But if you have a problem with one of the lines or hoses being clogged, just replace it

stanclub

Just wanting to let you guys know that I am really grateful for all your help!


Yes, I have no dripping from the hard line once the hose was removed. Another thing I have also noticed last night was that caliper cylinder was all the way back into caliper, and not touching the brake pad at all. I tried pressing the brake pedal hard, and it went all the way into floor couple times, after that, the cylinder was still not out.

It seems to me just like you guys said that I have restriction somewhere in the line, and I got quite a bit of air in the line since I bleeded line few times without fluid out. The front driver brake does not work at all with cold air, then when the air gets hot, it pushes brake cylinder out to lock the brake pad onto rotor. Am I looking at the right direction?

I spoke to a customer of mine who runs a repair shop, he suggested me to keep open line, and press brake pedal to see if fluid comes out through hard line, and expect the pedal to go all the way to the floor. Will this help unclogging the line if I pedal pump few times, if just minor jam in it?

If not working, I suppose that I can remove the shorter end of hard line to start inspecting line condition, then the long line to the ABS. Is there a way I can inspect the fluid output of ABS for that line? Or, way to check if ABS is working or not? All other 3 wheels are braking perfectly well without any common ABS issue that I have heard of, but I am still not a pro anyways, so can't say yes or no on ABS.

stanclub

by the way, is it hard to replace ABS modulator? Just preparing for the worse case. I am still going to check the line and hoping it is just the restriction to be cleaned out with.

I called a repair shop and got quote possible $1200 for the part, and about $1700 after labor. Found a used one on ebay for $99 ........ hopefully, it is kind of repair replacement I can handle.

Once again, grateful for all you guys' help!

01tl4tl

the caliper piston is retracted into caliper- so there is NO pressure from system pushing it out when you push brake pedal

did it do this before you worked on the brakes?

STOP pushing pedal to floor with a line open- you will damage the master cylinder seal

01tl4tl

the red brake light on dash= whats it doing?

ANC297

iTrader: (2)

Can't stress this enough, you WILL damage the primary and secondary cup seals in the master cylinder, and it will fail on you in about a week.

stanclub

Thanks for the reminder. I haven't pressing the pedal with open line, but just last night with caliper was still on. So, it will break the master cylinder pedaling with open line? I wonder why he still suggest me doing that.

No light no dash at all; everything remains just normal.

The cylinder issue was found last night, so it's after I put in a new caliper and bleed the line with old hose. The symptoms is a bit different than the original; I suppose after bleeding the line 3-4 times, perhaps the brake line is empty now?!

I am thinking to remove the fitting of brake line at the end of ABS modulator side, and pressure the line through there to push out whatever is in the brake line out through the caliper end. If I get something out, maybe that's my problem; if not, perhaps ABS modulator is bad. Can it sound like a plan?

Can I bleed the ABS modulator through the brake line fitting?

ANC297

iTrader: (2)

Well under normal operation of the brakes, the pedal does not travel to the floor, so in the master cylinder, some crud can build up where its pistons do not travel...When you push the pedal to the floor bleeding the system, the rubber cup seals scrape on that crud and become damaged...They no longer hold the pressure, thus causing a spongy pedal and no pressure because it is no longer a sealed system. Known as an internal leak in the master cylinder.

The fact that no fluid comes out of the line, leads me to believe that your line is clogged, I do not think it is ABS related, but I could be wrong.

ANC297

iTrader: (2)

And generally speaking, the red light on the dash is usually a low fluid indicator, parking brake indicator, or a pressure differential indicator.

The pressure diff switch senses a loss in hydraulic pressure, lets say a blown hose for example...The switch then moves to complete an electrical circuit, turning the indicator light on. And just for reference, the switch is generally located near metering valves on disc/drum setups, proportioning valve, and/or combination valve- which is just that, when the valves and switch are one unit.

So theoretically, by the info given by OP, there is fluid in the reservoir, and no leak-therefore pressure is building in the system-Shouldnt trigger a red brake indicator light.

But again, Im not a expert with brakes just yet- These are just my thought trains in action.

01tl4tl

I agree mostly, and add: the bore of the master cyl is smooth in a certain range of normal travel
once past that, the rubber oring can be damaged = master cyl failure

stay away from bleeding anything but the master and the calipers!!!

You can open the brake line at master to make sure no air blockage there.
do that with helper pushing on brake pedal= rules about 3/4 travel to floor apply!
best to put a 2x4 under brake pedal arm to limit travel

once good there, open line at caliper line fitting, wih helper applying pressure to pedal
good there, proceed to caliper bleeder nipple like normal

You have 1 new seal ring on each side of the lines banjo fitting to caliper,,right?

what fluid dot3/4?

totaledTL

It's NOT good there- he has no pressure @ the caliper.
Try blowing out the line as you stated. If no pressure on other end you found the problem.

01tl4tl

I was saying start with a bleed at the master cyl to metal line,
once good there, meaning you have fluid movement out with pedal pressing and no air--then go to the bottem end of the line and open where it attaches to caliper--
verifying good flow now all the way thru line
after thats working--bleed caliper

If during the caliper install the master ran dry- it uncovered the line and got a bubble stuck at the beginning---burp at hard line to master will reveal and fix that if present

Ive encountered this on my Honda 2 wheeler- where you had to burp the master at line connection before getting real pressure thru a line,,odd but true

01tl4tl

your TL may not like the pressure bleeder type or pressure you are using

the old school 2 man bleeding method always works, and you can see exactly whats coming out the clear tubing into the catch bottle
suddenly a few bubbles appear after nice clean fluid....

01tl4tl

I am against BLOWING OUT THE LINE!!
the last thing we want to introduce into the system is air!

disconnect line and work with new brake fluid if you follow that path

stanclub

Thank you all for the helpful suggestion; Thanks mostly to 01tl4tl! I have learned much from you.


I had assistance last night from one of my relative who used work on car as professional, but have left the field for a while. And, we start getting the progress!

We started with disconnecting the hard line from the ABS end, to see if there has any fluid coming out. As expected, found the driver front line as dry ( located at 1st position ), but surprisingly found the one next to it, as 2nd on ABS, also has no fluid. The 3rd and 4th are good. It seems there has one line coming from master cylinder to this one end on ABS that supplies, or controls, 1st & 2nd line, he though that will be a good idea to check the master cylinder output first.

So, we remove the fitting of this left side master cylinder line ( on top of ABS at same side with 1st & 2nd line ), and bleed it with pedal pumping .......... it works good. Then we put it back onto ABS, and pedal pump again to verify the output of 1st & 2nd line on ABS, with line disconnected .......... also works good. Perhaps, the brake line is clogged? We decided to blow the line with air, which we think it was dry with fluid anyways. Air blew in, from the caliper side, and almost NOTHING came out of ABS side ( disconnected from ABS, so the air did not get blew into ABS ). It was the air that locks the brake, but where is the clog?

My guess is that somewhere in the ABS unit, or the master cylinder input that supplies 1st & 2nd brake line, has clog in it. And, we have just unclogged it after all this testing/bleeding.

After all this, we just bleed the brake line again with old 2-men method, and had to bleed it quite a bit to finally get the fluid out of caliper to eliminate all the air out.

It was late at night when we get to the finish of bleeding driver side, so that's the result I got so far, without a chance to test dry yet. So far so good! But, I also want to re-bleed all other 3 wheels with correct order, just to make sure everything is working fine before I can call it "completed". So, I will do it over the weekend.

01tl4tl, I think you might be right about the suction tool may not work for this car. After the caliper is bled properly, this tool is able to bleed like normal. But after that, I decided to change the brake hose since I have already purchased it ( $27 for insurance, I think it is worth for the money after all this afford we have put in ). With new hose one, the suction tool sucked out nothing again, even after 10 minutes of sucking. So I had to pump it by pedal again to get the air out and bleed it good.

Over the weekend, I will re-bleed all 4 wheels with pedal pumping method. Hopefully, it goes well, and the car can be back to good condition. I will follow up with you guys. Thanks!

ANC297

iTrader: (2)

The internals of your of your lines or hoses is damaged and restricting flow...
Quick question to the OP, when you installed new calipers, did you twist the rubber brake hose? Did you use a crimping tool on it? If so, thats yours problem.

The way brake hoses (the rubber hoses, not the metal lines) are constructed is that the inside layer is a neoprene for strength, the next outer layer is nylon mesh, and the outermost layer is rubber...So if you twisted, kinked, crimped or anything of that nature to the hose, the inner most layer may have cracked and it is blocking flow within the line.

Depending on which direction the cracked piece is hanging, it is blocking the fluid from coming out of your caliper, thus causing a frozen caliper. It would also explain why very little brake fluid came out of the line when you went to bleed it- only the trapped fluid would escape, and when you turn the car on the next time, the problem re-occurs...

I am gonna say that you need to replace the flexible rubber brake hose at the affected wheel and rebleed once more and you should be good to go.

.................................................. .......____
Instead of the line looking normal like this ____ it now looks like
..... ______
this __/ ___
because the hard material on the inside has cracked and folded down, restricting flow in one direction.

My attempt at digitally drawing it out is as if you were looking at the line from the outside.


...Posted and when page reloaded I just read OPs latest post.

stanclub

OK ..... I think I found the cause of the problem to begin with.

I replaced the front driver side caliper again, because I found leaking on the bleeding screw. As soon as I put the new caliper on, I try to fill more fluid to reservoir so I can bleed the new caliper. When I was ready to fill the fluid in, I noticed that reservoir is semi-transparent but no light could pass through. So, I put my finger in the reservoir and found the filter is actually removable ( I was stupid enough to not thinking it can be removed ). I pulled out the filter, and next thing I see was WHOLE BUNCH of disgusting white stuffs floating in the fluid ........... I suppose that's what was clogging the line.

Front wheels are good now, I am fighting with rear passenger side, and haven't checked the rear driver side yet. Since everything else is inspected as working fine, I feel more relaxing now. I suppose that I just need to clean out the rear lines and bleed them well, then we are done.

Thank you all for sharing your valuable opinions!

01tl4tl

this demonstrates why you should flush the brake fluid every 2 years
more if you run the car hard~
or live in high moisture environment--wiki hygroscopic for what happens

definetly get the rears cleaned out fully!!
those tend to be the calipers that fail from this type problem

Tip on flushing: remove and clean the filter in master cyl res
use a turkey baster to remove --MOST, but not all-- of the old fluid
DO NOT uncover the holes where the lines attach at the bottem edge = allowing air in

Add new fluid slowly so you dont create bubbles, splashing etc
the new fluid will sit on top of the old
begin bleeding/flushing

totaledTL

Something else must have gotten in there. A regular brake fluid flush wouldn't have purged that. It took your inspection of the resv. to find.

stanclub

totally agreed.

I am gonna start flushing all other cars in our family if they are few years old. Big hassle and trouble by being lazy like I did on this TL.

01tl4tl

most people do a flush starting where the OP ended up!

remove the screen filter, suck out most of the fluid
that would have discovered the 10 year old very messed up fluid and called for an
`open line` flush, rather than line attached to caliper as normal

cominfromafar

Is it me, or does the ABS modulator/pump on the 1999's (or all years without VSA) not have an accessible plate cover to change the fluid in it? See page 19-192 in the factory service manual.

The ABS pumps are like page 19-103 for the 1999's, while years with VSA have what's on page 19-191 correct?