Shade Gaiven

We all know how this goes. "Got a second gen TL, 2003, with transmission problems."

When I first got the car, I was the second owner and the transmission on it only had about 3400 miles. That summer, it killed itself. Irate, I took it to the dealership where I got it and they said it was covered by a warranty and they'd get it fixed. Car had about 143000 miles then. Took them a month and a half to get the job done (though they had the new tranny in about a week).

Two years later, this summer, I'm starting to have the same problems I started having then. This means that I know the tranny's gonna go, it's just a matter of when.
So first, the knowns.

The tranny really only fusses when it's been sitting for a long time. like, overnight kinda long.
It's only ever happened during the heat of the summer months.
Using the AC during city driving causes a temp spike, possibly unrelated but not sure.
If the tranny acts up bad enough, kill the engine and it resets something and then it usually works.
After a short and careful drive putting up with hard shifts and doing what I can to make them less hard, it'll stop acting up after a bit and drive just fine.
I replaced the tranny fluid about two weeks ago, making sure it had the correct fluid in it.

I'm not sure if this transmission has the cooler in it, but based on how I've read on here about how that part appears on the transmission (mostly hose where the drain plug should be if one is installed) I would say it isn't.

If this tranny can be saved, cool. But if it can't I've already accepted that.
Which brings me to this post.
I've been trying to learn a lot from this Acura community as I've needed to, but have never reached out (that I recall, save for maybe one post a long time ago) so hello to you all...off track.
I've come here for answers to Acura related questions when the Chilton wasn't -enough- help and I'd like to know what preventative maintenance can be done for the future. I recently read on here that making sure to change the fluid often (20-30k miles) can help, I've also heard on here in the past that better transmissions from other years can bolt on? Specifically the AV6 and that it is a far better transmission? Should that be true, I do have access to a mechanic and the tools to get it done (since I know a lot of shops won't do it "because it's not the right year") and would just need to know if it's a direct bolt on, would I need some different electronics to function with the AV6?

(a pause here, I found the thread saying the 06 AV6 DOES work on the 03, so I'm keeping that open)

The route I want to go is the AV6 if it's a better transmission, this way I don't have to dread the thought that summer is going to kill my car.
But besides that I want to take better care of this car than the previous owners who did a fine job (don't get me wrong). If the transmission can be saved/remedied, I wouldn't mind getting some tips.

Transmission aside, this is the first car I've had and liked for several years. I'd like to be able to keep it that way and be a car to be proud of.
Thanks for any input, and sorry for all of the word vomit. I tend to type how I think.

frankjnjr

Few questions Shade: (1.) Do you know which "type" transmission the Dealer installed at 143K? Factory rebuilt, used, and was it an Acura Dealer? (2.) How many miles on the replacement transmission now? (3.) How much of a temperature spike occurs when using the A/C? Temp spike should not happen, period. Operating the engine when over-heated could cause the transmission fluid to overheat, which is not good for the fluid. (4.) When you changed the fluid two weeks ago, what did the fluid look and smell like? Did it smell burnt? (5.) Did you do at least 3 individual drain and fills, or just one? (6.) Which (exact symptoms), "acting up", other than "hard shifts", are you experiencing? Regarding the auxiliary cooler, these were installed (on some but not all cars) as part of a recall campaign. The cooler is located directly at the Filler plug area, not the drain plug area. If so equipped, the cooler is very obvious, it is cylinder shaped, "like a pancake", is silver in color, is maybe 4" in diameter, 2" thick, and has hoses attached to it. The cooler can be easily seen by looking at the top of the transmission, "drivers side", mid-way between the front side, and rear side of the transmission. If your car had one, you would have surely encountered it when re-filling the transmission, during your recent service. Your right, these are great cars, and worthy of maintaining. It is somewhat difficult however, to make recommendations, based on the limited information, provided, thus far. Please elaborate.

01acls

Shade, if you want to rehab your trans do the following...

1. Replace the external ATF filter.
2. Do a 100% ATF exchange with Maxlife full synthetic... 2 gallons.
3. Inject 2 doses of XADO EX120.

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cablemeblind

Hi! Quick Question, my tranny at 145K shifts fine but at this point should I do the same as you suggest?

horseshoez

iTrader: (2)

@cablemeblind, not sure who you are responding to, but a 3x3 transmission fluid change is never a bad idea with automatic transmissions, assuming of course you use Honda DW-1 ATF.

cablemeblind

And 3x3 means what exactly? Sorry trying to get caught up on this car, just bought a TL-S for my nephew. Should I buy the oil and take it to the shop or request they use that oil?

Thank you for your time.

horseshoez

iTrader: (2)

Sorry, a 3x3 change means, drain and refill with three new quarts of Honda DW-1 ATF, done three times with a few days of driving in between each change.

thoiboi

Do it yourself, it's easy and saves you money

Iggy

No need to wait days between drains. Just drain, fill, drive through all gears then repeat 2 more times.

01acls

Yes, 100% ATF exchange, new trans filter, and 1 XADO EX120.

Dw1 or Vavoline Max Life full synthetic ATF is fine.

Ideally you would want to change 100% of the ATF and trans filter within 35k miles. All at once or in in increments, doesn't matter how, as long as the ATF doesn't over heat.

Once the ATF overheats, the fluid has to be changed within a 100 miles. After a 100 miles the burnt ATF can no longer lubricate and protect the trans. It's imperative that the ATF is in good condition at all times.

horseshoez

iTrader: (2)

Why do you say Maxlife ATF is "Fine"? Do you have the tech spec which shows the coefficient of friction (COF) is identical to the Honda spec? If the COF is incorrect, regardless of how good or not the base oil is, it is the wrong ATF for the tranny.

Said another way, until proven otherwise, Maxlife ATF is not "fine".

01acls

I'm not saying it... Acura and Valvoline said you can use either ATF.


2000 TL Owners Manual

Dex 3... Continued use can affect shift quality. Doesn't say cause damage. May affect shift quality for the better. LOL



Valvoline list their ATF is a direct replacement for DW1 and Z1.

horseshoez

iTrader: (2)

Yup, typical marketing bilge for a "one size fits all" type of ATF product. The thing is, universal products such as this literally aren't. They can say all they want that the product is "recommended", or "suitable for", or any number of other fuzzy claims, but unless they say something like "Max Life ATF is Certified to meet Honda DW-1 specifications", then it isn't an equivalent ATF and as such is technically incompatible. It may or may not be close, but it certainly isn't spot on.

Long story short, it is a crap shoot to use this stuff in an expensive transmission and bad advice to suggest the innocent reading public use it.

01acls

You are wrong. California law prohibits companies from listing ATF that doesn't meet OEM specs. Read the last sentence in the chart. Valvoline had to disclose that information right on their literature.



Any ATF that does not meet OEM specs is noted with an astrix.

horseshoez

iTrader: (2)

Sorry not wrong; it is a virtual impossibility all of the cars they say Max Life is "suitable" for were designed to use ATF with the same coefficient of friction. You can make all of the noise you want; unless and until you can show Max Life has the same COF as DW-1 then you're wrong.

01acls

I already show you that Maxlife meets the "Official OEM viscometrixs specifications" as posted above.

By your own admission you don't know the Maxlife COF. How do you know that DW1 and Maxlife are not interchangeable? Where's your proof showing that Maxlife does not meet Honda DW1 Specifications? Other than your personal opinion.

BTW, there's also another Honda DW1 alternative. It's Assin ATF DW1... $4.50 at Rockauto.

horseshoez

iTrader: (2)

I never said I knew for a fact they were compatible or otherwise; what I said was, unless and until Valvoline can show their ATF is certified to match the specs of the DW-1 ATF, then by definition it is not compatible. That just the way it works in the industry.

01acls

Valvoline can show that it meets Honda ATF DW1 specs. Otherwise Valvoline would not put that statement in print for the world to see.

As far as certification that's another story... Not going to happen. It's call proprietary product or a monopoly.

Just because something is not certified it doesn't mean it's not compatible or not interchangeable. Two totally different things.

01acls

Correction

Aisin ATF DW1... $4.50 QT at Rockauto.

horseshoez

iTrader: (2)

In the industry, unless a fluid is "certified" to meet the relevant specifications, then it is deemed incompatible. If someone wants to run the risk of a non-OEM spec fluid, great; what I have a problem with is folks recommending non-spec fluids to folks who may not know any better.

Long story short, if you want to run MaxLife, then knock yourself out.

01acls

No it's not. Non- certified fluild does not mean "incompatibility".



Dex 3 is not "Certified" and Honda is recommending to mix Dex 3 with DW1. Where do you see the word "incompatible" as stated by Honda Corporation? You don't because that's not true. General Motors would sue Honda Corporation for defamation.

horseshoez

iTrader: (2)

Sorry, you can say it till the cows come home, if a product isn't certified as being compliant with relevant specifications, then even if it happens to be 100% compatible, it will be deemed non-compatible.

At this point I'm done with this discussion.

03TLSinCO

I've run Valvoline MaxLife in my Acura for over 100k with no issues (trans is from an '07 Accord V6). Many others have run it in Odysseys without issues. Many millions of miles total, according to the users of the Odyssey forum I subscribe to (my wife's vehicle). It's a product I trust, as do many others.

Pay the dealer price if you like. There are compatible products that have been proven, through daily use, to be compatible. Honda has no interest in certifying a non-Honda product because it will hurt profits. Feel free to continue to pay higher prices if you like. I'm fine with saving some dollars for a product that does the same job just as well, based on the observation of myself and many others.

horseshoez

iTrader: (2)

@03TLSinCO, from a scientific/engineering perspective, you cannot prove a positive with a negative; fact of life, look it up if you don't believe me.

It may well be MaxLife is close to DW-1, and anecdotal evidence suggests it may well be. My argument is it is HIGHLY unlikely to be identical/compatible, and assuming the Honda engineers know what they're doing, using any ATF other than DW-1 will have a very good likelihood of reducing transmission life.

01acls

Maxlife have been tested by Valvoline to be completely compatible and/or a direct replacement for DW1. As posted above.

Dex 3 is recommended by Honda Corporation to be use as a temporary replacement for DW1. However, temporary is relative per Honda because it also states that at your "convenience" to switch back to DW1. So no negative effect on the Honda trans (as you've claimed). Actually Honda have not stated anything negative if you use Dex 3 or Dex 3 current replacement.

You are the one using anecdote evidence that Maxlife is not compatible or does not meet DW1 Viscometrixs.

Unless you show tangible scientific prove that Maxlife doesn't meet DW1 Viscometrixs. Then your argument is totally base on anecdote evidence. In other words total personal opinion and not scientific. There is no argument here. What you're saying is total bullshit.

horseshoez

iTrader: (2)

Sorry, unless and until MaxLife is certified as being DW-1 compatible (something which Valvoline cannot do by definition; it must be done by a third party), then everything else, including your posts, is just noise.

03TLSinCO

[QUOTE=horseshoez;16143791it is HIGHLY unlikely to be identical/compatible, and assuming the Honda engineers know what they're doing ...[/QUOTE]

First, identical and compatible are 2 entirely different things. I'm making no argument about the products being identical, and unless the Valvoline product was simply a rebranding of the Honda product (or vice versa), there would be legal issues to be addressed. Compatible is a different subject. Does it perform in a similar manner? Usage over many millions of miles appears to support that it does. Do I know of anyone that has used the 2 products and done an analysis of the transmissions in a controlled environment to prove that? No, but I'll accept that they are compatible based on experience.

Second, assuming Honda engineers know what they are doing? In most cases, yes I would assume that. But we do have a transmission issue we are all aware of, proving that they don't all know what they are doing all of the time.

01acls

No it's not noise because Maxlife meets OEM Honda DW1 viscometrixs specifications. For all intended purposes scientifically it is DW1. So there's no benefit to having Honda Certification.

Who said Valvoline cannot do their own testing. Show me the law that says Valvoline cannot do their own testing?

Honda Certification is only require when a ATF have not been tested to meet DW1 Viscometrixs and if you want assurance from Honda that it's safe to use in a Honda vehicle. Otherwise Honda Certification is irrelevant.

In this case Honda Certification is irrelevant. You can say not Honda certified all you want but the truth is Honda Certification is irrelevant and not required.

horseshoez

iTrader: (2)

It isn't "Honda" certification, it is independent labs certification. You really don't get it do you, and unless and until you get educated, you never will.

01acls

Lol Maxlife is certified to ATF standards. You don't know what you're talking about.

01acls

Truely unbelievable, almost all ATF on the shelf meets ATF standards... Dexron and Mercon.

LOL, my job is done here.

Shade Gaiven

Hey, rezzing this thread just to give an update on what [finally] happened.

So The car became undriveable about the end of November when I went to renew my tags. So I took it in to a local transmission shop that specializes in aftermarket transmissions. Called to get an estimate and the guy on the phone (let's call him Gary) informed me that when they do their Acura transmissions, they get their parts from another company (he told me the name but I kinda hazed over it so I forgot) because of the notorious transmission problems the TL had. Then they told me they get a new case from that same company because something about Acura not sealing the CV seal effectively. Which was the other problem I was having: Leaking bad whenever I drove, seemingly from the CV seal (it reached a point where it got too cold for me to check once I had the money to start working on the thing.

One of the guys I work with at Autozone said the problems sounded like the Shift Solenoid was going bad (it got to where I'd have to drive in first until the transmission warmed up before it would shift) but it turned out to be something inside the transmission.

So blah blah blah what ended up happening was I got a new aftermarket transmission from this specialty shop and now it's shifting great and it's all shiny and new.

Hopefully I don't kill this one in two years too.

frankjnjr

Glad you were able to salvage the car.