bill_talbot

Ok, I know this is a common thread/issue amongst us, but I need a little guidance on this one as the threads on this topic are typically rotor/pad based (been there, done that). Within the past few years I have replaced the struts, shocks, rotors, pads, and rebuilt the calipers to have the shaking gradually return. I thought that rotors or calipers may still be the culprit, but have found that the shaking primarily only occurs when stops occur while the wheel is turned. (which tells me that the rotors/brakes are not really the problem)

As I research it further it seems that the real problem is the lower ball joint/control arm, but wanted to run this by others (much smarter than me) to obtain your insight.

Note: the wheels are balanced, the alignment is dead-on, and hence why I am reaching out to help demystify the problem at hand. Thought that you may have some insight on this one. (as I really want it to go away)

Thoughts?

Thanks.

01tl4tl

what brand rotors-pads-shocks?

give those parts a full testing for movement in the joints

steering rack is good? no leaks,,fluid flushed,, ever? use honda ps fluid--its picky about that

`as stops occur`--do you mean you are turning the wheel at slow speed
during final braking to a stop...and get vibration
Or going into the corner at 45mph braking?

In general: its best to do all your braking in a straight line

`trail braking-for racers` can `settle the car` in ~certain loading situations~
not for the average street driver.. to be using 2 feet in an automatic~

bill_talbot

The vehicle has:
* aftermarket OEM shocks/rotors (Front Struts are 2 years old, Rear shocks - approx 1 year - both KYB)
* rotors & pads are Brakemotive (10 months old)
* front factory calipers are rebuilt ( torn down with new gaskets about 3 months ago)
* brake fluid flushed (2 years ago, and inadvertently occurred again when rebuilding the calipers 3 months ago - Valvoline synthetic)
* PS Flushed (1 year)
* good condition rims (factory) and rubber (Michelin standard size)

History:
* on-going vibration for past 2 years
* originally resurfaced factory front rotors (2 years ago - worked for about 3 weeks)
* replaced with Honda pads (1 year ago - worked for about 4 weeks)
* replaced with Brakemotive rotors/pads (10 months ago)
* rebuilt front calipers when the vibration returned (waiting until I had time to work on them (3 months ago - worked for about 3 weeks)

Don't get me wrong the vehicle is MUCH better than when I originally received it (3 years in Dec), but the vibration continues to reappear.

When does the vibration occur:
* after driving for 10+ minutes
* when stopping (50%) AND when braking on turns (GA has a few roads where braking is necessary on a turn on the road)
* not always at high speeds, sometime the slower speeds will also make the steering wheel go psycho.

My struggle is that the problem is intermittent and typically occurs when the wheel is not straight. ...hence the mystery

Thanks in advance for your help here.

YeuEmMaiMai

I am going to do my front brakes here next week and I am using autozone rotors and C-Max pads

bleed your brakes again and this time use 2 other dudes to help you.

1 pours brake fluid in the MC as it goes down
2 pumps the brakes while you bleed each caliper
3 is you making sure you got no air bubbles by attaching a clear hose to the bleed port and make sure you got no air bubbles in it and clear brake fluid comes out into the hose.

then retorque every thing correctly when reassembling. This includes your caliper bracket, calipers, and wheel (lug) nuts

01tl4tl

thats a funky description of correct bleeding of the brakes
you dont leave caliper open and pour new fluid in as old is moved out
dont need 3 people!

I would redo the bleed lf rf rr lr..after calipers were off it must have a full bleed
THEN the 2 abs active stops from 45mph- in case any air was trapped in abs controller
thats the only way to get it out! (gets in while lines open during caliper rebuild)
now rebleed entire system,,hoping for air in LF

on-going shake would make me suspect rotor not sitting right on hub, imperfect fit inside rotor to hub?
or hub damaged..maybe hub bearing going bad? curb shot, potholes, etc
Is it even a brake issue?
could be tie rod ends!

bill_talbot

More than happy to re-bleed the brakes, but I am fairly confident that most of the air is out of them. ...the pedal is pretty firm - the rotors could be an issue, but it is too weird that the problem comes and goes.

Looking at this from a tie rod end perspective that makes sense. I actually had a similar issue occur to me years ago with an old 88 Caprice Classic. Now that vehicle was much larger, heavier, and rear wheel drive, but the problems were similar where the vibration became too much (however, it also happened during regular driving too - not just braking). I will research this a little here on Acurazine to see how the tie rods can be checked.

Is it normal to question the tie rod ends when the brakes are in good shape? Should I also look at the rack and hub bearing (although not the easiest task) too while checking the tie rod? I ask as I do know that the previous owner did have a front end collision with it, but do not know the details outside of that the front bumper cover was replaced. ...it is rather obvious

Thanks.

CJR238

my 04 TL with 195k has had this type of issue as well as a sloppy feel in the steering and wobble at launch. My motor mounts were shot and the transmission mounts as well. All bushings have been replaced.

After replacing the motor and trans mounts the breaking wobble got much better, but i still get the launch wobble so I have narrowed down that the rack is shot/warn.

fsttyms1

Did you replace the rear rotors and pads? They can cause it as well. What are your wheels torqued to. That is the main cause of rotors warping brakes warping is over torqued wheel lugnuts

01tl4tl

over-torqued and not brought up to that 80 foot pound spec
in at least 2, prefer 3 segments,,hand tight with wrench = 50,,
then with torque wrench 70, then 80
all done in a star pattern, going across from last lug
See owner manual if unsure
no manual? www.owners.acura.com free download !

go do the 2 abs active stops from 45mph to full stop, since you had lines off,
thats required by the real service book (my car got air in there)
then do the rebleed,,
pay attention for better-firmer pedal on 2nd stop

I agree with Kris- rears will give you shakes
mine had pads with the extra 3rd raised tab issue- cocks pad sideways on brake application, so only half its width makes rotor contact!! bogus!!
bad feedback thru pedal and system as it tries to operate

Anyone with replaced rear pads needs to ck for this problem - the inner pad and 3rd tab.
Look under rear of car at inner side of rotor
if half its width is shiny and half is rusty--you have the problem!

Pads from several big name makers all had same prob
those pad backing plates are made for the RL which uses that 3rd tab,,
and physically fit a tl caliper bracket,,but are wrong for us

bill_talbot

I'm quite religious about the 80 lbs torque on the wheels. (actually do to both of you)

The rear rotors and pads were changed at the same time as the front set. (Brakemotive)

Now I haven't rebuilt the rear calipers yet, although I have the parts (ran out of time when doing the front calipers). Sounds like maybe I should go there prior to moving forward and then perform a double re-bleed on all 4 wheels.

...motor mounts, including the transmission set, were replaced about 2 years ago (the previous owner didn't appreciate the TL much). I don't see a problem there with the 115,000 miles on the vehicle.

01tl4tl

ck out the rear pads for that extra tab issue
quick visual: lay on ground at rear of car, look inside rear rotor,,if all shiny..ok
if half shiny/ half rusty = pad problem

remove pads- if wear angle not too bad on pads already- use grinder to fully remove the offending tab,,its hitting the caliper piston before the rest of the pad = deploys crooked
If wear is severe, buy another set- return under warranty, do whatever it takes to get fresh pads on there
If new ones come with center/middle raised tab--grind it off!
hawk still has some out there,,RB has some in the beginning but fixed problem..

01tl4tl

2 years --motor mount could be blown again,,they last 50-60 kmiles on average,
or rear mount bad now...yadayada
never assume its good- test everything..then reck!

Now that we know this car was in a front end crash:
the probability of steering rack or steering parts damage, hub/ bearing issue has been raised to uh-huh
I reckon the problems err from yer wrecken

whats an alignment shop got to say about it?

bill_talbot

I went through a much more severe crash with my old '99 TL and it didn't have these problems. (had to rebuild right front sub-frame) Maybe the mechanical difference between the '99 and '02 is more than I realize as they look quite close/identical to me. (except for the steering - my '99 hugged the road much better, it has a tighter and more responsive steering system, than my current '02)

Summarizing our discussion so far in addressing the on-going vibration:
1. Front rotors/pads - In good shape (less than 1 year - Brakemotive)
2. Rear rotors/pads - I looked and they are in great shape and do recall the notorious 3rd tab did not exist on the pad (is was identical to the factory pad) - also replaced within past year with Brakemotive
3. Wheel torque - 80 ft-lbs already in place with all 4 wheels (done personally each time the wheels are rotated)
4. Shocks/Struts - Replaced with after-market OEMs
5. Brake Calipers - front rebuilt, rears can also be rebuilt
6. Motor mounts - could be bad (again), but am fairly confident that they are in good shape.
7. Tie rod end - need to do the 90 degree turn test to confirm that the are good
8. Upper and lower control arms - open for suggestions on how to test them
9. Wheel bearings - I see that a special dial gauge is needed here. Is this an easy task to complete? ...not afraid, just looking for insight.
10. Steering Gearbox - uncertain how to check. Looks like a time consuming rebuild, but is not out of the question.

In looking at this as a system, I am all for addressing the smaller items prior to tackling the gearbox. ...although if I address all of these I am bound to have a great ride with my rebuilt front end.

Remember: This is an intermittent problem when the wheel is typically turning while braking. (e.g. slowing down to take a left turn off a 4-lane road, stopping at a stop sign that is on a turn, etc.) I am not saying that it doesn't happen sometimes when the wheel is straight and slowing down, but the brake vibration is not as common/regular.

Thoughts?

Thanks.

01tl4tl

how long ago was align done? it set up perfect on the numbers?
you're stumping us here Bill!

MilwaukeeDave

iTrader: (3)

Here's your solution!!!: step one: install large subwoofers. Step two: turn volume loud. Result: whole car shakes whether braking or accelerating plus while parked!

bill_talbot

Alignment is good - probably been 6-to-12 months since last checked, but know that highway driving it is straight as an arrow.

A large speaker is an option, but not ideal for this problem.

YeuEmMaiMai

you do when you do not have s bleeder kit and it works (2 kids) I have one kid add the fliud, one kid pump the brakes and I use a clear tube to make sure fresh fluid comes out.

Nice teachable moment for the kids :P

Kai-Ten

Yea ! I have 1000 W Rockford Fosgate AMP and two 12 in. Sub-woofers running 500W each, 4 amps inside running bose tweeters mids, alarms going off with cars in parking garages people in traffic , I shake their ride as well, cops hate me 7 tickets for stereo so far and more to come

Kai-Ten

Do you have aftermarket rims ? Chrome? I had 18in. chrome rims on my CL 99 I live in Florida, the rims would not allow proper ventilation of brake roters, they would wobble and shake car and steering wheel , had rotors resurfaced and 4 to 6 month later wobble and shake over and over, so I switch rims to a 7 spoke design more air to vent brake rotors, no problems since

bill_talbot

Apologies for going silent over the past few days as I have been addressing many items that has kept me busy.

Today I have rebuilt the rear calipers today and am about to perform the 2nd bleed after taking the rebuilt calipers for their 1st spin.

While I had the wheels up I had the following findings:
1) the front rotors look great as do the placement of the pads
2) the rear rotors and pads look great. There is no 3rd tab and the pads are hitting the entire rotor surface.
3) the rear calipers -
a) the right (passenger) rear caliper looked good (after a good cleaning). No issues outside of learning how to correctly place the piston gasket back on. (not bad once you get the hang of it)
b) the left (driver) rear caliper was in need of a rebuild. The rubber looked warn as it looked like dirt (or something) had gotten into the piston area. I cleaned it thoroughly and found there to be residue within the piston area. Took 0000 steel wool on it and it cleaned up well. The rest of the caliper was in good shape and looks much better now.
4) performed the test on the front wheels (back & forth) with no issues. I didn't feel any slack.
5) my wheels are chrome from Acura. The airflow is OK, they are balanced, and have had them on a different TL with no issue. ...famous last words I know, but am fairly confident they are not the issue.

Note: Use a vacuum end cap to plug the brake line hose while working on the caliper in addition to keeping the brake fluid reservoir cap on. This was a MUCH cleaner experience without having brake fluid drip everywhere. (found the idea on the web)

The drive test will come within the next few days, although I will be unable to take it for a long drive until next week (family stuff this weekend).

Also, I haven't had a chance to check the alignment yet. Still forthcoming on that one although I am starting to believe that my rear caliper may have been the culprit for me.

That's it for the moment. Time to get back to work and wrap up my second brake bleed activity.

Chat with you later.

bill_talbot

Still a man in motion here. So far the rebuilt rear calipers did the trick. I guess the drivers rear caliper really did provide "new vibrations" due to issues with its piston and gasket seal.

I do feel a minor amount of vibration now, NOTHING like before, and believe it is related to my Brakemotive Slotted Rotors.

...but all of this does make me wonder if my original rotors and pads were OK though -- and no I do not have plans on putting the original rotors back on unless the Brakemotive rotors and pads start causing me issues.

I will continue to provide updates over the next few weeks as the drive time on the rebuilt rotors continue to add up.

01tl4tl

did you do the mandatory 2 ABS stops from 45 after having brake lines open?
if 2nd time pedal firmer= rebleed brakes--there was air hidden in abs

bill_talbot

Long time, no chat. Here is a quick update:

When rebuilding the calipers I did the mandatory 2 ABS braking exercise and rebled them twice. It definitely firmed up the brake pedal.

Over the past week I have been able to take the vehicle for more than a 20 minute drive and am finding that the front vibration has gone away (cheer), but there is a rear vibration still in place when braking. To me either I have a rear caliper issue (maybe my rear driver caliper since it had rust near the piston) or a rear rotor issue.

BTW - Something I noticed when rebuilding the left rear caliper is that the parking brake was "sort of" moving. meaning that the bottom part of the brake was able to move (not the pads, but the brake) although the top of the parking brake was attached. This is hard to explain and am happy to provide clarity if this doesn't make sense as my question is: Is the brake suppose to be static or is the bottom half of the parking brake also suppose to be attached to the frame. (like I said, this is really hard to explain)

Thanks.

Thoughts?

Thanks.