fsttyms1

fsttyms1

Oh and did i mention i still think you need to knife edge your crank

IDon'tKnow

OE Honda J32A2 HG - It's .030" thick, the spacing I need on what is now a zero clearance quench pad.

Do you have any lines on a J35A1 crankshaft? I might consider doing it if I end up forged in the process and the price is right. If you would be interested in a barter for head work that might be an incentive as well; I'll blend your valve seats and de-flash your ports in exchange for you covering the knife-edging tab.....?

A friend of mine and I pulled his 1MZ-FE apart tonight and compared crank weight. Mine was 45lbs and his was 39lbs.

IDon'tKnow

I milled the head so much that the previous 89mm diameter of the chamber is smaller. I now need to smooth the edges of the chamber face to eliminate the sharp edge.

richardparker

iTrader: (7)

I was looking a page or two back at your block.
How long can your block sit around before needing to be built, after getting it out of the shop ?

IDon'tKnow

Guess it depends on the storage conditions. If I were going to keep it apart for an extended period of time I would wrap it in plastic and leave a desiccant inside.

__________________________________________________ __

The mods over here got onto my case pretty badly last time I posted anything about group buys or my porting and polishing services, so I'll just post this in my thread here: really looking forward to getting this off of the ground soon:

OK Guys, here's the deal. I think trying to modify the OE cam gear to become adjustable is going to turn out to be more trouble than it is worth. My project requires adjustable cam gears, and since no manufacturers out there are willing to come out with a design for the J.... I will.

Having a machine shop build just one gear is going to be tedious, manual, and expensive. It would be much preferable if I could get a handful of guys on board to produce a small batch set; ~10 sets. Less is possible but the pricing for this sort of thing increases significantly for smaller batches in per capita terms.

The logistics will go something like this:
Step 1: 10 Group buyers commit to purchasing a set (est. price will be $250-$350 per pair)
Step 2: Group reviews technical drawings and quotes for machine services and materials.
Step 3: Group commits to project and collects funds for production - Note: I am not trying to make a profit with this; this will be ~@ cost.
Step 4: Group waits ~4 weeks for machine work to be completed
Step 5: All machined parts arrive at my home; I remove center pieces and ship them to a friend to machine timing marks and logo (hmm... what logo?) into gears; this will be much cheaper than having the machine shop handle it.
Step 6: I assemble all cam gears and ship to you.

My design will be as follows:
- Steel (or 6061 or 7075 if possible) gear
- 6061 aluminum center
- 4 Class 12.9 (above grade 8) socket cap screw fasteners
- Keyway will go from being machined into the cam gear to a standard Honda keyway.
- OEM Cam Angle Sensor trigger will still be functional; it will be a separate piece, and I need someone willing to test this for me prior to having a bulk order done. Testing will be done with an OE cam gear, custom trigger wheel (same pattern), and the original triggers ground off of the OE gear. Here are a few pictures just to give you an idea what I'm thinking of. They are not to scale, layered, or detailed, just a basic design idea. If you want to give some input as to the design, I'm open to suggestions.





So who's game and ready to get this ball rolling?

gfrg88

iTrader: (2)

JCharged

iTrader: (5)

Interested. Also, I might have to drop off some heads for you to do. Keep up the progress.

WBA-01

iTrader: (2)

I would also be interested, but it's my understanding that 6spd gears are different than auto's. They have different patterns of teeth for cam sensor. I'll have to look but i think its pictured in someone's swap.

IDon'tKnow

From the comparison pictures I have seen between the two gears (6sp and Auto) it appears that the only difference is the width of the trigger teeth. If that is the case the solution is as simple as modifying the design on the reluctor wheel.

You're running a 6 speed motor?.... and the cam gear for the 6speed is much more expensive.... who has one that wants to send it to me for measurements?

IDon'tKnow

Slowly but surely, things are coming together. Received the pistons back from the machine shop today. The reliefs are cut .03" deeper and at .015" greater diameter to account for the change in valve location. Since I took .035" off of the head, I figured taking almost the same amount out of the valve reliefs would be a safe bet. Based on what I've heard from a few guys, I might not have, or just barely, run into clearance issues with otherwise stock heads, but I wanted to be safe running the regrind cams that are currently in the works.



These just need a little bit more touching up before I spray the domes with ceramic coating and the skirts with dry film lubricant.

fsttyms1

That is the only difference are the pickup points on the rear. Teeth are exactly the same.

Auto on left, Manual on right

IDon'tKnow

Look what showed up at my house today:

IDon'tKnow

Just a quick teaser to prove work on the project lately. Not much of substance right now, just R&D. These models are done with identical duration and lift numbers as the A2 cam, but they are presented symmetrically; will be corrected in the next model.

The goal here is it run ~260* of duration on the Mid lobe, and ~12mm of lift; will require custom valvetrain solution (one which actually increases spring pressure and supports aggressive ramp rates and max lift) that I have figured out, but still need to implement.

richardparker

iTrader: (7)

The cams I have that are reginded the lobes look just like the differance in the picture.
They have a smaller base circle like you pic and looking at the lobes the peak looks like it's a little shorter as well compared to the A2.
Not sure if I took pics side by side.
I was told I would need either valve shims or longer tip valves to get the geometry right.
Is that right ?

IDon'tKnow

Valve shims do not apply to our valvetrain because the lash is adjusted on the rocker. A longer valve could effectively negate the need to adjust the lash to make up the difference in base circle, but it is not going to correct the geometry fully since the tip of the valve will move further away, horizontally, from it's original location as you lengthen it.

Alright everyone. Here's some data for you that I think is very interesting. As I toyed with the dimensions of the cam lobes in I found myself concerned about piston to valve clearance. So, in order to check that I had to map the movement of the piston in the bore relative to crank centerline by crank degrees. This is the resulting data which applies to 93mm stroke cranks only:



Then, after deciding that I wanted to run a peak lift on the MID lobe of ~12.4mm, I drafted the necessary changes to the base circle and transitioned the ramp angles as smoothly as I could. Once I had that done I used the model to pull the per-crank-degree data I wanted to map the two cams against each other. RG is an acronym for Re-Grind in the legend. Here's that:



That chart gives the linear motion of the valve along it's own axis (which is ~26.5* btw) but not the motion along the Z-axis; parallel to the bore. I then graphed the linear motion of the lowest point of the intake valve across all three applicable axis that it moves in:



So once I had the Z axis movement mapped by crank rotation I could use that data to compare the orientation of the valves to the piston, again by crank degree. This plotting compares the linear motion of the two without accounting for the valve pocket in the piston, but every other variable I could think of has been accounted for (lash, gasket, valve location):



I then took that data and compared the piston to valve clearance before regrind and after. In these clearance scenarios I input the valve relief depth as 3mm (whereas it is actually 4mm) to ensure a margin of safetly.



So, with this data I'm speculating that the regrind I'm doing will end up with a max lift of 12.4mm and a duration on the MID (Vtec) lobe of 268*. Which will be significantly more aggressive than anything that these motors have seen in the past; hopefully good for bumping the peak Hp up 1700rpm, and pushing the N/A envelope a little bit.

fsttyms1

Awesome.

DC3328

iTrader: (22)

Speechless here lol

civicdrivr

iTrader: (9)

Waaaaay over my head.

IDon'tKnow

Just want to point out that I made a syntax error when plugging the formula for piston position into Numbers. I'll redo the plotting when I get some spare time to be sure my lobe design is still safe.

IDon'tKnow

Here are the comparisons of the original cam profile to the prospective regrind. Mid lobe is the larger, primary intake is smaller. OE First and then reground.

V_Langs_3.2TL

DAYUMMMM!!

dude this is amazing. I can't believe I didn't stumble upon it earlier!

I can't comment too much lol because of how in depth you've gone but i will say that I'm excited for the Regrind. can you even physically grind anymore than that? seems like you're pushing the valve clearance to it's absolute limit

IDon'tKnow

The lobes could be taken down another 1/2mm or so before being flush with the core. I've heard that the hardening treatment for cams goes .08" into the material, so ostensibly you might be safe going further down. The question is whether te head is even going to flow any better at 13+mm of lift.

You're right about being close to the maximum lift though; 12.9mm is the clearance from the base of the retainer to the tip of the valve stem seal. There's room on the retainer to turn a few mm off of it, but like I said; doubtfully necessary.

richardparker

iTrader: (7)

Do you think I will have enough adjustment to run the cams fine ?

And all those # are to much to take in.
How many custom engines have you built before ? Your knowledge seams uncomparable to the rest of us here.
Where about are you located,Any where near NC ?

IDon'tKnow

I'm not sure about the dimensions of your camshafts so I can't really comment as to whether you'll have the adjustment you need. Based on the math I've done, I would assume so. Where did you get them?

I've never done a custom engine build before. My handle on here is IDon'tKnow for good reason. In fact, over on the MR2 forum the subtitle to my handle is "but I can find out"; I think that sums me up pretty well.

I'm confident in my ability to learn as I go. Next thing up on the learning curve is to figure out how to figure out the accelerative and inertial forces of the valve train in OEM guise and my prospective regrind. I'll plot those against each other and use them to make sure I'm using appropriate spring pressure. I know that higher ramp rates, higher lift, and higher RPMs are going to require higher pressure springs, but are these going to be overkill, just right, or not enough? The only way to find out is to get my hands on some engineering texts and learn more, and that's something I really look forward to.


Right now I'm just going off of a best guess in that realm. KMS and Bisimoto valvesprings are both doing ~70lbs of seat pressure and ~150lbs open. The springs I've picked out, and will be machining custom seat locators and retainers for, will be ~85lbs of seat pressure and 195lbs of open pressure.

fsttyms1

Im glad you are getting new springs. I think the springs on our motors now are at the upper limit of what they can do. I think with a higher spring rate and slightly more aggressive tuning honda could have added a few hundred more RPM

richardparker

iTrader: (7)

I have been talking to people everywhere and one guy told me that me a good place to do machining on this head would be under the rock shafts to bring the roller of the rocker down on the cam then adjust the lash.
What do you think about this for a option ?

IDon'tKnow

Milling the surface that the rocker shaft mounts to doesn't sound like a terrible idea. There are a few obvious minor drawbacks. Of course, it's non-reversible.... although, you could just shim it later if you decide to throw stock cams back in. Then there's the cost relative to simply adjusting the tip of the rocket. In terms of geometry change, I can't really comment because I haven't modeled that geometry yet. I struggle to mentally conceptualize exactly what would happen with the contact point on the valve tip and wipe pad on the rocker.

Honestly, the more I think about it, the more I'm inclined to think that the geometry change would be benefitial compared to just adjusting the lash out on the rocker.

Bisi and KMS have both had their springs tested with otherwise OE parts (sans retainer) on a Spintron, and both have tested extremely well; 10Krpm capable. The issue comes in when I jack the ramp rates and lift up significantly.

I'm still doing my research on how to determine the inertial forces involved with our valvetrain. I'm not willing to just settle for a best guess on necessary spring pressure and RPM capability.

IDon'tKnow

Just a quick teaser:

richardparker

iTrader: (7)

What valves those and where did you get em ?

IDon'tKnow

They're Ferrea comp plus intake and superalloy exhaust valves. The J32A3 valves are the same size as F22b1 valves, but 1mm larger diameter, so the +1mm oversized Ferrea valves seem like direct swap. The Ferrea intake valves are .01mm smaller diameter and .25mm shorter. Exhausts are identical.

richardparker

iTrader: (7)

Have you put springs on them yet to confirm.
Because their is a ebay seller that sells these in singles.
And if these are a good fit,I will be unfolding the wallet asap.
Will our stock locks work with these valves.
My counter has all my head parts on them right now and I'm ready to get them together.
pulled them out last night to take a look at them.
I've been doing some looking at the rockers and thinking of way to make them lighter.
Going custom here might cost a small fortune.

IDon'tKnow

I need to get in touch with Ferrea and discuss some things with them before I make any statements that cost someone money. The valve locks don't need to be changed, they work fine. With the intake valve being .25mm shorter (which is less than the tolerance for spring length) you'll just end up with a a few extra lbs. of seat pressure.

The spring I've selected works better with the OEM retainers and seat locators than the OEM springs. That is, they are a nice tight interference fit.

The one issue I have right now is that the posted data for these valves through Ferrea exactly matched the measurements I got from my caliper, but when I put a micrometer on them (both the OE's and the Ferrea's) I found that there is more of a difference than anticipated. The Ferrea exhaust valve is listed at 5.46mm stem diameter; I mic'd the one they sent and it comes in at 5.473mm compared to the OE 5.45. It may be that the Superalloy valves experience less thermal expansion and are thus safe to run at a tighter clearance; maybe not. I would still be happier if the stem diameter came as advertised.

On the other side of things, the intake valves are 5.49mm in OE size, and the Ferrea's mic'd out at 5.48mm. Whether or not these are acceptable tolerances will determine if I try to turn these or not; I just need to check in with some pro's before I make any decisions.

richardparker

iTrader: (7)

Manual says this is the service limits of the valve stems on the a2

Intake
.2159-.2163 (5.485-5.495)

Exhaust
.2146-.2150 (5.450-5.460)

They look acceptable to me.
Maybe a slight hone to the exhaust guides
I'm inquiring if I can get some intake one's @ 36mm.
I'm not worried about the shorter lenth .My super tech seats are about that much shorter.
Seams like I could just use the supertech seats on the shorter valves and the others on the others and it would work out pretty good.
We should make some kind of deal with someone to get them cheaper and made right though since I'm at the same spot you are and I'm ready to buy some whenever some are set in stone,that will work.

IDon'tKnow

Ferrea will not modify the design in any way without billing it as a completely custom valve. At least that's what they told me when I asked about getting it in 36mm diameter.

Perhaps they will be willing to not take the intake stem diameter all the way down to 5.48mm. I would prefer that they be 5.495.

richardparker

iTrader: (7)

What the cost of the custom valves.
I could not get much out of the guys their besides the would not sell directly to me.
They told me I would need to get everything figured up wether me or a builder and then go threw a ferrea authorized dealer.
Custom or not I'm ready to get some.

My B day is in about 2 weeks and the wife is asking me what I want.
what do you think I want ? No out of pocket for me on the valves would leave me money to get something else.

What do you think about these manley f22b1 exhaust valves.

• Head Diameter : 30mm
• Stem Diameter : 5.5mm (.2165")
• O/A Length : 114.25mm
• Tip Length : 3.5mm
• Underhead Angle / Radius : 25* x 11/32"
• Margin : .065"
• Seat Width : .080"
• 20* Dished Head

IDon'tKnow

If those are actually the size advertised, you could get away with just reeming the OE guide. I'm thinking of swapping in magnese bronze guides though. You should go in with me on that; the MOQ is 50 guides in custom sizes.

richardparker

iTrader: (7)

Do you know the valve seats angle ? 45 ?
I measured my valves today and the only thing I did not measure is the valve seats angle.

And after measuring them I think the manley exhaust valves would be almost a perfect drop in. They are 1/4mm longer but other than that I'm thinking they should work great

IDon'tKnow

I don't know the seat angle. I wouldn't drop a new valve on a used head without a fresh seat grind, so that's something I would leave up to the machine shop to match.

Whichever you decide on, the money you save on vales can be spent on new guides. I personally would take Ferrea over Manley. Similar prices.

With better guide material and tighter tolerances the valvetrain will be more stable at high rpm. With higher lift and a wipe pad on the rocker nose, the angle from which pressure is applied to the valve is exaggerated. A looser tolerance will tend to oblong/wear the guide faster.

richardparker

iTrader: (7)

What the differance in custom price per piece Manley vs Ferrea
Why do you like Ferrea over Manley.