RUF87

Just in case some of you guys aren't keeping up with the Innovative Mounts thread over in the CL 2nd Gen section, there's been some progress with some promise to address some of the early failures with the mounts.
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Call with Innovative on 8.28.08 - - - - -

Spoke with Tim at Innovative this afternoon . . . they got my mounts and said . . . they we're bad. They also acknowledged that it's mostly likely the biggest issue contributing to the vibration problems. Okay, so we weren't imagining the problem . . and it wasn't anything we did installing them.

Tim also said that they had already begun working on this problem based on what they were seeing from Sentinel. It also sounded like they redesigned the mount and the bushing. I'll be able to clarify that once I get my mounts back, which should be Thursday . . I hope or I'll be without a car all Labor weekend.

Some other notes of interest are that Tim is also sending me a set of the firmer Street/Strip mounts for me to test. This was something that I wanted to do to see how different set-ups work. However, I won't be able to play with everything until after a soccer tournament this weekend. The approach I plan on taking is to test the base street mounts on the front and the rear. Drive it for a week and then swap out the front mount for the firmer street/strip mount and see how that feels. (I'm thinking this will be a great set up for more serious modders.) After that I will swap out the rear mount and put in the firmer mount and test that combination. I will even reverse the process leaving the firmer mount in the rear and put the base street mount in the front just to see what that does. I'll share all results with Innovative so that they can use the feedback to tweak the design as appropriate.

Anyway, I'm feeling pretty good (and pleased) about the response from Tim and can't wait to play with everything . . . especially since it'll be the first time to test the car out with some recent performance mods . . .

Ruf

DC3328

iTrader: (22)

well this is good to hear, thanks for updating the TL side

02type-s

Thank God. I have been dealing with broken mounts waiting for ANY good news. lol.

Please keep us updated!

RUF87

FedEx shipping confirmed they'll be here Friday afternoon . . . will update as soon as I get a chance.

Ruf

JCharged

iTrader: (5)

Good stuff.

EL19

iTrader: (4)

Thanks Ruf, I need mounts badly

Edward'TLS

Maybe you can offer your car to them so they can do more "beta test" with their mounts.

RUF87

WHOOhoo . . . .

Okay, the big WHOO is that both sets of mounts came in as promised and I was able to install the new base street mounts this afternoon.

The hoo is for 2 things . . . 1) I forgot my camera so I could take some pics, but there was nothing really to note as the mounts looked the same, other than perhaps the red bushing looked like a deeper red. The street/strip mounts are black and were harder to the touch - pressing my thumbnail into the side. 2) Well good and bad news is that the vibrations were significantly reduced, so much so that I didn't think about them until I had driven about 3 miles. Okay, I had been working on my car from 11am until 5pm - doing some body trim work and modifying my intake some so that the BBTBs would have maximum benefit before tackling the mounts. Anyway, I was tired and heading home and thought - oh shit - forgot to pay attention to the mounts.

All that said, they are much better, however for those that want a near stock ride, it's still a bit rough with the A/C on and in drive. If I were 19 again, I wouldn't care, but we'll see if the some of the set-ups I will play with will get us some better results.

On the positive side, much better, but still some tweaks to go. Also, once the OEM mounts are out, removing and reinstalling the Innovative mounts is sooo much easier. I was able to install both mounts and the vibration dampers in less than 30 mins.

Some other positive notes are that I can feel improved throttle, shifting and steering response. These new base street mounts really tighten things up, however I wasn't able to jump on it from a dead stop to see if tire spin was reduced some more - but I will soon.

I did have a chance to do a quick run from just under 30MPH against a guy with a new S/C Shelby GT. He didn't seem to have it running right as he didn't pull me too much . . . I got beside him and asked about it and he sheepishly said he was having trouble getting it setup right . . . sad all that show and no much to really show for it.

Anyway, as I said in an earlier post, my oldest has a soccer tournament this weekend, so I may not have time to test different set-ups.

Stay tuned . . .


Ruf

fobstylez

iTrader: (3)

sounds like I need to get a hold of some of those mounts. Mine are pretty much gone and the vibration sucks. GREAT job on the feedback.

02type-s

*sigh of relief*

DC3328

iTrader: (22)

im gonna hold my sigh of relief cuz im still skeptical.. but im that its finally fixed

NYtypeS03

finally i have all 3 mounts installed and it vibrates crazy so this should hopefully fix the promblem?

6MTUA5

iTrader: (2)

Thanks for the updates Ruf


The ladies love my hard idle

Rajca

iTrader: (8)

so you could either get the strip mounts (1st ones that were made), or u could get the street mounts (the new ones)?

is the vibrations really that bad with the 1st batch?

RUF87

There's at least one problem with what I'll call the 1st gen mounts. I don't have the exact details, but it had to do with the bushing formulation. It's also my understanding that Innovative also made a slight change to the bushing housing section that bolts to the steel bracket.

Anyway, I also had the extreem vibrations from the 1st gen mounts and just installed the new ones, or 2nd gen. The result is much less vibrations, but I think a bit more tweaking needs to be done to minimize it even more.

You may want to visit the 2nd gen CL discussion thread as there are more frequent updates there.

https://acurazine.com/forums/showthr...492237&page=18

Ruf

RUF87

The first set (1st Gen) of mounts were the street version - red mounts. I don't know of anyone who went with either the street/strip or strip only mounts.

When Innovative sent me the new 2nd Gen street mounts, they also sent me a set of the street/strip mounts to test. I won't do that until probably next weekend . . . that'll give me some time to feel these 2nd gen mounts out.

Ruf

RUF87

Okay . . . will explain all the fun details later, but I've got the black street/strip mounts in due to a problem with the red mounts. Basically I started developing some vibration-roar under acceleration after 2 days. I decided to go ahead and swap out the front mount with the black mount and noticed a little problem. The center bolts that holds in the bushing assembly was almost out, and the rear was loose. The front bushing was damaged . . . probably due to all the play. Looks like we need to have Innovative include a lock washer to prevent this from happening. Pics to follow.

It's too bad, because I was just getting used to feeling the red bushings out, and would have liked to tested the various combinations, but will just go straight black and see what happens.

Ruf

RUF87

Here are the pics of the busted mount, which I suspect is due to the bolt coming loose and almost out.






I hope to have time to catch up with Tim to discuss this and give him some initial feedback.

BTW, I'm loving the black street/strip mounts . . if it weren't for the increase in vibration I'd probably leave them in. I'll provide more details on the comparisons later when I have time.

Ruf

02 WDP TLS Black Interior w/ Black Grill Inserts
**1/4mile 14.46 @96.07MPH
(**pre headers, CAT, IMMs & BBTBs)
17x7 Konig Appeals SMF -
P225/45ZR-17 Bridgestone RE960 AS
(used Ziex 512s track only)
CT Icebox, RamAir, Sways & Springs
2nd gen Innovative Motor Mounts
BBTBs, Mugen Cooling Mods & Thermoblok
XS Headers - Ceramic Coated & Random-Tech CAT
NEO Anti Freeze & 5w-20 oil

02type-s

Thanks man, keep us updated

NYtypeS03

o boy i have those exact same mounts look like im going under the car tommroow to see if it look like that ( most likely i do the vibration got worse in drive and now im starting to feel them even in park) who can i contact if mines looks exactly like the one picture

NYtypeS03

also while my car shift from second to third it really jumps.....i changed the 2 oem rubber mounts since they were shot with regular oem ones from acura no luck though

RUF87

You'll need to contact Tim at Innovative.

He can be reached via email - Tim@InnovativeMounts.com

or phone 714-524-5246 (note, they are Pacific time)

Ruf

sbuswell

Honestly those mounts don't look to be very rugged, especially for how expensive they are.

NYtypeS03

thanks alot RUF 87 im going to take a look tommorrow take sum pictures and contact the number you gave me

RUF87

Well, I can say that they are much stronger than the OEM mounts. The failure on the Innovative mount was due to the center bolt coming out and not because of weakness. And I believe that the OEM mounts are more expensive.

Here's the 2nd set of OEM mounts that came out of my car.

Front OEM Mount


Side OEM Mount


Ruf

RUF87

I heard from Excelerate this morning and he's going to help follow up on things as well.

Ruf

fsttyms1

The mount placement on this car is beyond ridiculous Hopefully Innovative figures it out. I want better mounts, but i spend so much time in the car i dont want any

Inaccurate

Ruf,

I just installed a set of 75A(Black) in my 2006 TL.
They are but I am keeping them.

Did you tighten the main bolt to approx 47 ft. lbs.? IM sends the mounts with this nut loose. I could see how someone could end up with these nuts vibrating loose if they did not know that these bolts needed to be tightened.

RUF87

Yikes as in a moderate harsh idle? And I understand about keeping them . . they feel really good otherwise.


Yeah, mine came loose as well, so I tightened them some - just to the point of the bushings started compressing and backed off a 1/4 turn or so, but not no 47ft lbs. It just doesn't seem right that the bushing should be compressed that much. I'll give Tim a jingle and see what they recommend. Either way they should use self locking nut or a lock washer.

Ruf

RUF87

I did talk with Tim today, and they want to analyze the bushings . . . I suspect that they'll make another adjustment to the formulation. Tim will send me another red mount so I can test out the various combinations. I did asked about them reducing the rigidity of the current formula by 20-25% and send me a set of those bushings as well. Basically the current red formulation is still a bit to harsh for what I think most people will want, so I want to see if that takes us in the right direction.

More to come as soon as I get them back . . in the meantime . . . for those of you that are in to serious moding and all out performance and don't mind some mild to slightly moderate vibrations (mostly with the A/C on) these are really nice.

Ruf

Inaccurate

I did ask IM. I talked with that other guy. I think his name is Mark. He told me to torque it to the typical value for any 12 x 1.25mm bolt. He did not know the value and he told me to Google it. All of the Acura 12 x 1.25mm bolts are typically 47 ft. lbs. He further added that there was no danger in harming the bushing because you are tightening the outer bosses against the inner metal tube.

Perhaps this is why yours is coming loose. Just snugging the nut until the polyurethane bushing starts to get snug was a FAR cry away from the 47 ft. lbs. when I tightened mine. I checked to see when the polyurethane bushing became snug and that was when the nut had little torque to it. From what I am hearing, this is for sure why the nut came loose. That 47 ft. lbs. is much, much tighter than just snugging until the polyurethane bushing binds.

I am very mechanically inclined. And I felt that the 47 ft. lbs. was the proper tighteness for that bolt in that application.

Just trying to help, and mean no rudeness. I know that we owe you for all of your efforts in doing R&D on these mounts.

Inaccurate

I been thinking for the past few days since my IM install on how to best describe my feelings.

It is not the vibration itself. I like the tactile feel (aka, vibration). I have OMP racing seats bolted directly into the floor of the body, and the vibration comes straight thru the seats... and I LIKE IT. I love feeling the manly (Tim Allen grunt) vibrations coming thru the steering wheel.

My problem is with the low-frequency shockwave that is generated when the car is in drive and not moving. This is a feeling like someone has a boombox with the Bass turned way up. It is not loud. It is more like a percussion wave pushing against my ear drum.

It was really bad when I first started the car after the install. I had my battery unplugged. So, my ECU had to do the relearning for the idle. For the first hour of driving, the ECU kept allowing the idle to drop to 500 and 600 RPM while in gear while stopped. MASSIVE ROARING while the ecu allow the engine to lug down to 500-600 rpm.

Now that my ecu has relearned, the idle speed stays above 800 RPM (just using my oem tach). And, I get no further massive roaring from the low idle speed lugging the engine.

But, in general, it is this roaring like a boombox with too much Bass that bugs me. This is ONLY while stopped at red lights with the trans in Drive. Very little difference between when the A/C compressor kicks-in. Once I release the brake and start rolling, I have zero roaring.

RUF87

No offense taken . . we're just discussing and sharing info, so

As for the torque spec for that grade of bolt, I agree that there's no problem with regard to the bolt. It's just not real clear on how compressing the bushing would effect things. I'll make sure I have that same discussion with Tim and see if I get the same answer. If it ends up that it does need to be tightened that much, then that will not only help prevent the nut from coming loose, but it would effect the density of the bushing some so that should have a slight impact on the feel/vibrations as well, so I'll call today and make the change if he says the same thing your guy told you.

Ruf

NYtypeS03

Well i followed Inaccurate advice in torque down the bolts i did the side and front mount to 47 pounds and when it came to the rear im having promblem reaching it. NEED ADVICE. (When i installed them the car was in aaccident so everything was out of the car made it alot easier at that time) From wat i see it doesnt look destroyed just looks loose. So i only did 2 outta the 3 and nottice a slight difference so im hoping to get to the rear mount tommorrow. Then in about a week or soo im going to check them again and see if they lost any torque. Im trying to see if they stay the same or its becoming lose on its own.

RUF87

I spoke to Tim late yesterday about the need for torquing the bolt. He basically said either way is fine, so you can just tighten it with a lock washer and or thread lock, or torque it to 35ft lbs. He said some of the more heavily modded racers torque it even more, so basically whichever process you want to use is fine.

Also, they should have my mounts on Wednesday or Thursday for them to analyze, so I expect to hear back early next week on what they'll do next.

Ruf

Inaccurate

I torqued all three of mine prior to installing on the car. You will probably need to take the rear mount out to tighten it. BTW, don't worry about getting the mount at the exact proper angle when tighten the center bolt. Although the mount seems hard to rotate by hand, the mount will easily rotate into position when you tighten the mount to the engine bracket.

RUF87

Okay, the 2nd gen bushings I had on for a few short days have been received by IM and were sent to the lab for analysis. It's expected that I'll get an update late next week. Once a course of action is decided on, I expect to have a 3rd gen bushing on its way to me sometime the week of 9/22 and in my hand before the end of the month. The reason I expect it to take this long is that we have to wait on the lab turnaround, a decision, new formulation mounts must be made and finally shipped.

As for the black street-strip bushings, they are holding up well. There have been no changes in the vibrations, good or bad. I still like them and would keep them in if the vibrations in gear with A/C were no worse than with the car in neutral and A/C off.

Ruf

RUF87

Just a few comments about how the black street-strip mounts are doing.

I went to fill up on gas last night as they were projecting the price at the pump to jump .50 to .80+ cents because of fear that gas supplies would be hurt as a result of Hurricane Ike.

There wasn't much traffic and had a chance to jump on it a couple of times. In 1st gear from right about 30mph I punched it and it briefly broke the tires loose and when I hit second it produced a very hard quick chirp . . . with more torque steer than I've ever felt. Note, the humidity was very high with temps at 82 and a heat index of 89, so high humidity. Can't wait for cooler weather . . it's going to run like a beast.

What does this all mean? Basically that I'm getting a lot more power to the wheels, and quicker as well. That's what a nice set of performance motor mounts should do for you.

Ruf

02type-s

So with the black inserts, it performs a lot better, but it vibrates pretty bad? Like worse than my OEM broken ones?

RUF87

Yes, I'm loving the performance. I'll copy the vibrations comparisons from the CL forum I posted there so you can get a feel. But basically it is a very firm, but mild to moderate vibration. I'm seriously considering leaving them on if the 3rd gen red mounts aren't noticably smoother.

As for comparing it to broken OEMs, I can't say for sure as each case there can be variables depending how badly the OEM mount is busted.

Ruf