Shoofin

A friend of mine asked me about synthetic oil, what the pros and cons are...does anyone know enough about it to enlighten me so I can give him an answer?
Thanks!
Ed

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Acura-TL.com - Forum Moderator

'99 TL Satin Silver/Ebony, Non/Nav, Comptech lowered, Comptech Air Filter Element, Inspire Tails, AEM Brake Pads all around, Comptech Axle Back Exhaust, "Guy Smiley" doll on the dash as my Co-driver...

Pics of my TL
Pics of my Miata! Wadya think?

Pawel

Cons:
I know of only one -> PRICE

Pros:
better protection against thermal breakdown
longer useful lifespan ( I change my synthetic oil every 5k miles)
somewhat less frition, less wear on engine parts - i know this from the fact that you should not put synthetic oil in brand new engine - parts must wear in first

I think that this gets all I know. Correct my guys if I'm wrong.

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2000 TL Pearl White w\o nav
1991 Volvo 940 Turbo Traded

"Just Shut Up and Enjoy the Ride"

Guest

I would say synthetic oil protects best for those cars with tough ride.
For people having NOS/Turbo/Supercharge, better do some more extra protections on the engine.

Shoofin

Anyone else?

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Acura-TL.com - Forum Moderator

'99 TL Satin Silver/Ebony, Non/Nav, Comptech lowered, Comptech Air Filter Element, Inspire Tails, AEM Brake Pads all around, Comptech Axle Back Exhaust, "Guy Smiley" doll on the dash as my Co-driver...

Pics of my TL
Pics of my Miata! Wadya think?

LagunaTL

according to acura, "when using synthetic oil, you must follow the oil and filter change intervals given in the maintenace schedule."

Lrpba300

Hey Shoofin'TL.. I know Gomez had an old post w/a link 2 an article from Acura, R&T
(whatever) that talked about this exact item! I think it said NOT 2 use synt. oil 2 soon in an engine, until it was more broke in. I think that one of the Acura dealers said to wait till the second or third oil change to start using synth. oil. Otherwise, the breakin period will be MUCH longer!


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2000 3.2 TL Laguna Green
29% window tint, Clear bra, no nav
225/50/16 Aqua-Flow GTW's on OEM wheels

Guest

go to
http://www.mobil1.com/mobil1_racing/...oil/index.html

for many answers to your questions.

Synthetic is GREAT. If you fall somewhere between a "normal" and "severe" driver, you can feel good about using synthetic and going 7500 miles between changes.

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2000 3.2 TL, Paper maps.
Comptech axle-back exhaust.
225/55ZR-16 RE730s on OEM alloys.
205/55QR-16 Alpins on steel wheels w/covers (winter).

Pictures

BDI

Really?? I use Synthetic oil and change my oil on 3k intervals and the oil seems to be extremely dirty. Don't you think 7,500 miles is stretchin' it??


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1999 Navi/Satin Silver/Ebony/Comptech Sport Suspension/Comptech Axle-back Exhaust/Factory Underbody Kit/Wings West Flush mount spoiler/Weapon-R Intake/Super-White Highs/Polarg Turn Signals/Burlwood Shift Knob/Black Chrome Emblem Kit/Custom Grille/Inspire Tail Lights, more to come...

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Gomez

Just know that the car when brand-new has special 'break-in additives' in the oil, and you're not supposed to put synth in until after the first scheduled change. I had a long talk with the service manager, and he lived by synth but cautioned to wait until the second oil change to be safe. Your car will not develop full power until fully broken in.

I think we are being a little paranoid; el cheapo oil would even be fine, or Mobil1 every two thousand miles is OK too (like my buddy w/ an M3 does.) Bear in mind that new Bimmers spec with Mobil1 from the get-go, and call for changes between 10,000 and 13,000 miles!!!

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'01 White Diamond Pearl 3.2TL
-Wing, tint, burlwood shift, Whistler 6-band
'88 White RX-7 Convertible
-Permanent tinitus courtesy of Rockford-Fosgate

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1" FACE="Verdana, Arial">[This message has been edited by Gomez on December 30, 2000 @ ]</font>

Guest

Nope. I have been doing this for years with extremely good success. We traded our Civic with over 100,000 miles, and still didn't use any oil between changes. In fact, we were going 10,000 miles between changes.

All our trips were 10 miles or more, so we always got the oil up to temperature. At 6000 miles, the oil was no darker than conventional oil at 1000 miles.

When I did valve adjustments, I could verify that the camshafts and followers were like new.

The car averaged 42 MPG on a trip around 80,000 miles, and it was an EX automatic rated 34 MPG.

For some people who are "severe" drivers (because of short trips), 7500 miles would be pushing it. For them, I suggest frequent changes of regular oil because the cost of synthetic would be higher than the benefits.

PhiTL

The reason why I like to change my oil earlier than recommended is becaues I feel that the car feels sluggish or rough after a while. This was very true with my old car the '89 prelude but not really with the TL. Is it because it is older or smaller engine? Anyone else felt this?

OH yea this is on regular oil BTW, not synthetic.
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'00 White Diamond Perl w/Nav
Wings West Spoiler
Comptech Exaust
Rear Comptech Sway bar

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1" FACE="Verdana, Arial">[This message has been edited by PhiTL on December 30, 2000 @ ]</font>

Atomix

Wow! Ok, Einstein is back! I'm running conventional, getting it changed about every 3750 miles.....because I have a decent mix of long and short trips...I figure it's best to be safe.

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"Now you see that evil will always triumph, because good is dumb." --Dark Helmet

www.distributed.net

Gomez

Man, how easy is that to do? I love the sound and feel of a car with optimally-adjusted valves, and always wanted to try it.

Any special tools, know-how? (I'm somewhat mechanical - I can do brake jobs, replace alternators, stuff like that.) Will the Helm shop manual explain the operation in full detail? Ya gotta tell me!!!


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'01 White Diamond Pearl 3.2TL
-Wing, tint, burlwood shift, Whistler 6-band
'88 White RX-7 Convertible
-Permanent tinitus courtesy of Rockford-Fosgate

Guest

Yeah, the shop manual will tell you how to do everything.

Unfortunately, on the TL, you have to take quite a bit of equipment apart to do so.

Was sooo much easier on the 4-cylinder Hondas!

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2000 3.2 TL, Paper maps.
Comptech axle-back exhaust.
225/55ZR-16 RE730s on OEM alloys.
205/55QR-16 Alpins on steel wheels w/covers (winter).

Pictures

Road Rage

I have reams of SAE articles and technical monographs on this topic, and also practical experience as a racer and car modifier in my Green years.

Synthetics are highly recommended by me for the following:

1) You routinely drive at high RPM's or own a high revving, low torque engine
2) You plan to keep your car for at least 100k miles
3) You routinely drive in extremely cold climates

Otherwise, you won't gain much or it will be a bad investment from a cost/benefit point of view.

Now. not all synethics are made equal.

1) RedLine is the best - it is the only one I know truly fabricated molecule by molecule - it uses polyol esters which have the highest film strength, operating temperature, etc. It is stable to 700 deg F.
It is $$$$, but can easily go 7500 miles in a well maintained car. It has the highrest TBN (acid resistor) of any commercially available oil, and also has more DTP (di-thiophosphate, an anti-wear compound) than current SAE oils. BTW, DTP was reduced by the oil companies due to crying from the mnfr's aout phsphate fouling of their catalytics - when the mfr's were forced to warrant their emissions systems for 100k miles, they looked for ways to do this while not bettering the catalytics themselves. So they did the easiest thing - got the oil companies to drop the DTP levels. Good for them, bad for us, as wear will increase in the cam lobes and ring lands.
2) Mobil 1 is a PAO, poly alpha olefin. It is made from synethsized mineral oil and petro-gases. It has some esters added, but they are di-esters, not polyol esters. It is a good product at a fair price, and can easily go 5000 miles. If it looks dirty, so what? That is how it is supposed to look.

3) The rest stink - they are combos of cheap PAO's or hydro-waxes. Castrol is one. For my money, you are better off with Valvoline or Pennzoil.

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Rage On!
2000 TL w. Comptech header/exhaust
SSR Integral A2's
17x7 45mm offset
Pirelli P7000 (Summer) 215-50/17
Fender lips rolled

Guest

Phil,

I agree with you that it doesn't seem to make sense to skip the oil filter, at least financially. If I'm using $20 worth of oil, why skimp on a $5 filter (when purchased online).

But I know a good amount of contaminants are suspended in the oil, and come out with each change. Could be that there are so few "large" particles that might clog the filter, that the oil filter doesn't get "dirty" enough to be changed until 15,000 miles?

You also (potentially) save one "dry" start each oil change without a filter. Although I always pre-fill my oil filter before putting it on the car.

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2000 3.2 TL, Paper maps.
Comptech axle-back exhaust.
225/55ZR-16 RE730s on OEM alloys.
205/55QR-16 Alpins on steel wheels w/covers (winter).

Pictures

PhiTL

Einstein,

True, a good amount probablly does come out when the oil is changed, but any particle that gets stuck in the filter will most likey impede in the performance of the filter, how much I don't know. But the degraded performance of the filter will impede in the flow of the oil system.

But, if a filter is to work as it is designed. Most of the particles should reside in the filter itself and not in the oil. And if the oil is drained, most of the contaminants should still reside in the filter, therefore, changing the filter would be benificial. Then again, how "dirty" does it have to be to warrent changing, guess thats is up to the owner.

Yes, as for prefilling, I belive any DIY'er should do that as well.


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'00 White Diamond Perl w/Nav
Wings West Spoiler
Comptech Exaust
Rear Comptech Sway bar

Lrpba300

Well I don'T know where they get that info, b/c when I use to race & rebuild engines, & work w/ a very reputable speed shop. I saw motors taken apart both w/ reg. oil, & semi synth. oils buy Valvoline. Absolutly clean & wear was minimal. When you change oil reg., I think most quality oil brands work good w/ the oil filter changed. Its not just particles 2 worry about, it's the acids & lubricating qualities that are compromised! I change the oil & filter every 3750 miles no matter how the car is driven. The only thing I see Einstein say is the pre-fill of the filter on install that I don't do (sorry 4 long post)



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2000 3.2 TL Laguna Green
29% window tint, Clear bra, no nav
225/50/16 Aqua-Flow GTW's on OEM wheels

Guest

Let me mention here one factor: oxidation. when something becomes oxidized, it is no longer the same material it was before the chemical change. Synthetics are made (correct me if I am wrong) chemically inert, so that oxygen is unable to attach itself to the oil molecules. Therefore the oil is much more stable than conventional oil.

Furthermore, synthetics have a consistent molecular size. Because of this, you eliminate boil-off of the small molecules, and the sludge-prone larger molecules.

So synthetic is a longer-lasting oil, or at minimum an oil that will stand the test of time.

Let's get another thing straight: Contaminants can be either stray dirt and wear particles, or they can be unwanted chemicals compounds floating around in the oil. An oil filter stops the dirt/particles, but not the chemical contaminants.

Therefore, the oil filter could last a very long time if there is little dirt and wear in the engine.

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2000 3.2 TL, Paper maps.
Comptech axle-back exhaust.
225/55ZR-16 RE730s on OEM alloys.
205/55QR-16 Alpins on steel wheels w/covers (winter).

Pictures

Guest

Thanks for the info, Road Rage.

What has changed about Mobil 1's formula since they went to a "tri-synthetic" formula? Is it now more than just PAO?

I have heard of RedLine's superiority over the years. But Mobil 1 is available off-the-shelf for US$4.00 (this past week) a bottle at K-mart and other retailers like them.

I don't really HAVE to use synthetic. But if I want to go 6 months between changes, I think it's the best way to go.

One more question: For the normal maintenance schedule, you are only supposed to change the oil filter once a year. What is your opinion of that?

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2000 3.2 TL, Paper maps.
Comptech axle-back exhaust.
225/55ZR-16 RE730s on OEM alloys.
205/55QR-16 Alpins on steel wheels w/covers (winter).

Pictures

PhiTL

Einstein, hope you dont mind me jumping in. As for the oil filter, I belive it is the most important aspect of keeping your engine oil clean. I don't see any good in changing the oil if the original oil filter is still there. Since all the contaminants are trapped in the filter and there is quite a bit amount of oil still in the filter when the oil is changed. Since the contaminants are still in the filter, I belive if only the oil is changed, the contaminants will still be re-circulated back into the system.

I belive it is a small price to pay for the added security and piece of mind. Since you are under the car already, why not?

Again, my opinion.



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'00 White Diamond Perl w/Nav
Wings West Spoiler
Comptech Exaust
Rear Comptech Sway bar

Road Rage

Dirty looking oil is good in that it holds the suspended dirt from metal wear and dirt that gets passed the air filter (mostly silicon). That will not hurt the engine. Here's why: dirt gets caught in the filter if it is bigger than 20 microns or so (maybe a bit smaller) This size is selected to allow adequate filter life, filter flow, and one more reason - the size of the dirt particles that can do harm. Imagine two 15 microns pieces of debris sitting side by side. The effective size is now 30 microns. So if there is any dimension in the engine where the metal to metal contact point is less than 30 microns, there is a potential for the paired particles to cause abrasion and wear. That is about 40 mics in a modern engine. So these small partciles are harmless in that they do not materially affect the lubrication capability of the oil, and do not cause wear.

Einstein touches on oxidation, but I would point out another issue - dirt created from the lube itself! Think about it. Mineral oil is made from oil bases that have asphalt, different oil bases of different molecular size, etc. The "refining" process uses heat to minimize those properties and remoce adulterants. But what happens as soon as you start your engine - heat and pressure start to reverse the process, de-refining the oil and creating oil sludge and dirt. That is another reason why true synthetics like Redline are so strong - they never existed as petrolubes, and were created molecule by molecule to achieve a chemical property. Mobil 1 is much better than mineral, since it has been synthesized from mineral oil to be mono-molecular, and it does resist oxidation better, certainly enough for most driving on the street. But for high revving, racing type cars, you can't beat Redline or other polyol esters - they just have superior genes, you might say.



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Rage On!
2000 TL w. Comptech header/exhaust
SSR Integral A2's
17x7 45mm offset
Pirelli P7000 (Summer) 215-50/17
Fender lips rolled

Guest

Wow I am so lost. I started the post of allright and then just lost it. You guys are animals!!!lol. Sorry I have nothing constructive to add to the post just wondering if you guys arrived at some verdicts on the oil, when to change it, and if it is worth changing the filter on every oil change!!

Guest

It just keeps getting interesting!


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2000 3.2 TL, Paper maps.
Comptech axle-back exhaust.
225/55ZR-16 RE730s on OEM alloys.
205/55QR-16 Alpins on steel wheels w/covers (winter).

Pictures