Skirmich

friesm2000

iTrader: (4)

ME TOOO.... for puking all the tranny fluid out the vent tube while driving, so it has happened before (happened on previous owner though ), what fluid did they happen to use before on it , if you happen to know



i was woundering if i was the only that it had happen to before too

Skirmich

The Previous owner use only Honda ATF-Z1 when the Shop rebuild it they whanted to use some Cheap Dexron III (Included in Price) oil but i buyed the Amsoil so they fill up only with it Instead

What did you do to fix it? or why it was caused anyway??? i didnt force the tranny at all, i wasnt even downshifting with SportShift either.

friesm2000

iTrader: (4)

my tranny is still origional though, and it happened with about 93K on it, but a couple months prior the tranny had been flushed, so part of the reason i was asking what fluid it had in it at the time


it got towed to my work (i am an auto tech and i bought the car from the previous owner)

but anyways we refilled it, to see if it could still live/engage/go, and it did, so we flush it again with honda atf this time (we had oringionally flushed it at 90k with valvolin maxlife full synthetic [which valvoline says meets honda specs], we have moved on from that fluid though)

only thing was that it had a harsh 3-2 shift, but a new ATF filter fixed that, and the CEL/tranny light did come on shortly after puking itself (i think at like 96K) we cleared them and they have never come back otherwise it has been fine for the last 13k miles (106k on the car now),
only thing is that i know at some point it will need a new tranny put in it, cause the current one will go eventually (previous owner did know that at some point it would need a tranny put in it; but i also think he just wanted a new car also)

friesm2000

iTrader: (4)

first of all please turn down the font size, otherwise it is kinda hard to read (font size 3 is the normal size)

friesm2000

iTrader: (4)

read the post right below the your qouted post first.

Skirmich

Is nice that you saw the dripping i didnt now until my tranny was completely burned by the time i came home it was 2am so i wasnt really concerning about oil level i really really tought it would be the tranny Issue again i never think that my tranny was running without oil!! hell i feel sorry for her. Why can possibly could cause it?

friesm2000

iTrader: (4)

the only reason i can think of it puking itself is maybe that the atf filter got partially plugged from debris, which then caused the fluid to not be able to fully flow through the cooler, which caused the fluid to overheat, which then flashed boil, and found it's way out the vent tube, and once a little fluid left, the other fluid just kept getting hotter which also boiled it self out the vent

also did it happen to be a warmer day out (more heat load), and did you also happen to be cruiseing down the highway (i know you said 55 mph) for a period of time before it happend (like say 20-30 miles, not exact, but you get the idea), that the fluid would have just kept getting hotter and hotter,
also maybe the barometric pressure happened to be lower that day, since fluids boil at lower temps with lower pressures, idk


to try and prevent it from happening again, i added a tranny cooler to it, cause after i bought it from him (couple months after the tranny issues), i basically drove the same route that it had happened on, and when i did, about half way there i could smell something (i don't know if it was me or the car in front though, but i know it was atf smell though), so i pulled over at the next offramp, and looked it over, but did not notice anything out of the ordinary, so i continued on again, with no other problems including the return trip (return trip gains in elevation too, so harder)

but that smell did make me definetly think that the fluid was getting a little too warm for my tastes, so i added the cooler
as for the filter, that kinda cropped up after the fact with the harsh 3-2 shift, but i know it had gotten even more plugged from more debris when it had puked itself, so that should be changed also
and when i open it up afterwards, it was quite filthy and i did find metal shavings in the bottom sadly , but the tranny is good for the time being, so just driving it till it fully craps out

friesm2000

iTrader: (4)

only reason the previous owner noticed it too, was that it was slipping and such, so it got completely emptied just like yours
it smelled HORRIBLE when we pulled the fill plug

Skirmich

This is really interesting, but since its winter now and i already have a Cooler i dont think this was the case, also my ATF didnt evaporate it flushed off my Tranny since it cover half of my car Chasis seriously if you look my car from below you would see that all the tranny its stick on it. My front suspension is completely covered in ATF all the way to the rear suspension too all of the exhaust beggining from the Y Pipe to end in the Left Muffler is Covered in ATF! so my tranny wasnt hot it was just letting all the ATF out

The mecanic make it sound like the ATF flowed out of the Breather but the Breather isnt designed to have some kind of by-pass system?? to not allow the ATF out with normal operation?

friesm2000

iTrader: (4)

TURN DOWN THE FONT SIZE ALREADY

maybe then the filter is plugged , which would not allow enough fluid to flow to the cooler to keep the fluid cool enough

and yeah the whole underside of my car (as said mainly the driver side too, cause that is the side the vent tube is on) was covered too, including the trunk with how the air swirls around behind the car, but after coming out the vent tube, it would cool off enough and condense back into liquid form, then the air rushing by the car when you were going 55 mph carried that liquid ATF back, and got it all over the rest of the car

bypass-system on the breather??? , basically the only thing that keeps fluid from coming out of it, is the height of it, above the fluid level


also i was thinking instead of "overheating and evaperating" is that something caused it to airate (sp?) (overheating the fluid can make it easier to airate too) which caused the fluid to foam up, which would have also caused it to come out the vent tube also

so ethier way the effect was the fluid coming out the vent tube, and getting too low inside the tranny to properly hold gears anymore (and slip), but what caused the fluid to come out the vent tube is the QUESTION???

Skirmich

Yup since the rebuild is 7 months old done in winter having a cooler AND having Amsoil ATF in it make me think that the rebuilt somewhere whent wrong?? dont you think? since its 7 months old with NEW ATF and the Tranny being completely (rebuilt, clean, etc.) and the Tranny filter was brand new too from Honda. i quite dont get it WTF the breather tube has to do with the ATF droping all over the place.?

friesm2000

iTrader: (4)

7 months (i think mine was like 2-3 months after the 90k flush), seems to be when service has been done on it somewhat recently

mine is still the origional tranny, so i don't think the rebuild would be the issue so much

and the tranny filter should not have been plugged within a time frame of 7 months, unless it had some serious other issues beforehand


the breather tube is a vent that goes straight from inside the case to the atsmophere, it is just a plain old tube, that is attached above the fluid level

it is there to allow air in and out of the tranny when it expands and contracts (heats up and cools down), or otherwise it would build pressure inside the tranny when the tranny warms up which would cause the other seals to leak then (like the axle seals)

btw: it is the only thing that is opened to outside air otherwise the tranny is completely sealed, so whatever the fluid did, it found the easiest way out, which happened to be the vent tube, so the fluid came out of it, which then got all over the rest of the car as noticed

friesm2000

iTrader: (4)

seems to be that tempeture does not play a part in it,

about the amsoil, as previously said i am thinking that the fluid foamed up, which maybe because honda trannies like to foam the fluid and the honda atf fluid may have more anti-foaming additives then any other fluid out there to help prevent that, which is why our trannies puked their fluid all out from not having enough anti-foaming additives in it

my tranny had been flushed at 60k also with the valvoline max life too, but after the 90k flush, it had enough of the honda fluid out of it, that it no longer had enough anti-foaming additives in it
and for yours, the rebuild would have cleaned out the honda fluid from being totally cleaned out, so you would have not had enough anti-foaming additive in it ethier

so i think that is the reason our trannies puked themselves, from the fluid foamming and not having enough anti-foaming additives in the fluid itself



BTW: thank you for turning down the font size

Skirmich

Perhaps your right i have read many times that our tranny are a little "Special" when it come out to ATF but the difference in Temp and in Shifting when i put the Amsoil stuff Vs the Z1 is very great

Also: i read that flushing our tranny is very bad to them isnt?

I did a little test to ensure that the Temps from Amsoil where beneficial since i read that the Common issue with our tranny comes from Extreme Heat in the 3rd gear clutches heres how i did it

I locked my tranny in 3rd gear letting the car iddle until it reaches closed loop mode and the Rev hit 800 while iddling
then Reverse from my garage and do 10 laps around my neighbourhood

-Ambient Temp: (Z1 64°F) (Amsoil UA 63°F)

Used a Laser Infrared Thermometer bought from Autozone!
-Tranny Temp when Cool: (Aimed at the ATF Bolt on Top)
Letting it rest at least 10 hours in shadow
(Garage door open)
1st time (ATF-Z1): 42°F (8pm)
2nd time (Amsoil UA): 43°F (8pm next day)

-ATF-Z1 10 Laps locked in 3rd Av: 26Mph
Infrared Temp aimed at the ATF Bolt: 92°F

-Amsoil Universal ATF 10 Laps locked in 3rd Av:26Mph
Infrared Temp aimed at the ATF Bolt: 73°F

I now its not official and perhaps the Infrared spot i used can be problematic and the temp could be not the same inside the tranny (i now 4sure) but it shows that the tranny didnt Heat up just as fast with the Amsoil oil rather than the Z1 i believe that Amsoil cools way faster in the External Cooler (Not the Radiator one) than the Z1.

So i believe the Amsoil oil get less chance to Foam since it works cooler thats my main reason to stick with Amsoil ATF in the first place

friesm2000

iTrader: (4)

yes are trannies seem to be special :retard:

but how can you lock it in third gear ; ss will autmatically shift to first , and D3 it is still alowed to shift into 1st and 2nd gear

a better test would be to get a actual tranny temp gauge and go on a dyno and load it up till it stays in 3rd gear itself, and measure then
but a nice long hill would work too(like how some magizines do their towing tests up a nice long steep grade with a fully load trailer)

also your warm ups test was not very condictitive (sp?) to why our trannies actually puked, seems to be after a nice long consistent load like on a highway

and you can easily add enough anti-foaming additive to offset the higher operating tempeture with out a true tranny cooler, so i think that is kinda a mut point now for overall operating temp


also you get the point of why it would have came out of vent now???

Skirmich

lol just becouse it wont shift to 4th and reviing 3rd gear puts more load on the tranny that heating up the engine with the 2nd why would i whant heat transfer when i whant to now the heat from the tranny?

And who says anything about SS? you now that the lever goes way down too right? like 1-2 then D3 then D4 and D5
my car shift from 3>4 at 25 when applying low throttle like you now riding in a neighbourhood? so i whant it to sustain 3rd gear at those speeds

Besides i use the car for city drives so highway scenarios or dyno testing it would be overkill since i dont rev nor speed up that much in the city

01tl4tl

it can come out the vent when it dies- pressure buildup
and will coat the bottem of the car
Go ask the local acura tech about it for details

The shop did a bad job- just the fact they wanted to use the very fluid PROHIBITED by acura in the trans!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!....rebuilding it right wasnt their forte`

but your warranty is up and 50/50 is all you may get without proof of their wrongful repair,,,and they are not going to admit that

I would break the next rebuild in on honda atf then change after several thousand Kms

friesm2000

iTrader: (4)

just saying that you can not fully lock it into 3rd gear with out changing the ecu wiring and stuff around

but i know you said your test was not very sciencetific (sp?) for the temps, was just making a suggestion, cause the dyno would have the most controlled enviroment of all the tests out there, you could basically fully warm it up, then go 100% throttle, but put so much load on it, that you could make it stay in third gear and the same speed and not accelerate at all

friesm2000

iTrader: (4)

when mine happened, my boss called around to a couple of dealers (including honda dealers too, since they had the same issues especially with the accords), and none of them had ever heard about it puking itself before

and i don't think it was so much pressure build up, i think the fluid had foamed up, which made it all go out the vent

and for my trans it is staying on the honda atf diet the rest of it's life if i can help it

01tl4tl

I have not seen it happen myself-- but acura says fluid leaking from the trans is sign of death for it...doesnt say from where but there are only a few places that its possible

friesm2000

iTrader: (4)

as said above, mine has puked before, refilled, flushed, and been fine for the last 13k miles

rcb2000

temperture of the fluid isn't going to make it foam more or less, the make-up of the fluid and the gear design causes foaming not heat.

friesm2000

iTrader: (4)

even if higher temps did make the fluid foam easier, (from lower surface tension and such), it could easily be countered with more anti-foaming additive added to the fluid, which i think the aftermarket might be lacking in compared to Honda's ATF


it seems like honda might add more anti-foaming additive (AFA from now on in this thread) to there fluid, because they know their tranny design's are more susepitible (sp?) to foaming then other tranny designs out there, especially considering are basically manuals with clutchpacks instead of synchros vs. planetary gear sets

Skirmich

Well i have seen several test on Amsoil ATF i now i now they can make things up just to make me buy it, but in every test never and i say never their ATF has make Foam even in the most crazy ass tests. i dont think the Z1 is special at all since its just a little modified Dexron III the Amsoil ATF wipeout Dexron III specifications in all tests so foaming is by the brochure non existant.

Skirmich

Yeah thats exactly what im going to do. Buy like a 3 changes of Honda Z1 and manually flush all the crap they put in since the Amsoil dealer next to me is 120K away im in CA the dealer is in Yuma. and therebefore i will flush just a piece of the Honda Stuff and do a single Amsoil change so the Honda Stuff doesnt get fully flush and keep the Anti-foaming additives (if theyre are any) but remain with the temp of the Amsoil? what do you think??? at least ATF is cheap lol rebuilds are not

friesm2000

iTrader: (4)

will still be a compromise between the two ATF's not quite the full temp ability of the Amsoil, and not quite the anti-foaming additives of the Honda ATF


as said, for mine i am just staying Honda ATF from now on

friesm2000

iTrader: (4)

foaming is from air getting entrapped within the fluid, and did any of those tests happen to have vibration induce into the fluid, plus also say maybe a gear getting windage issues by dragging it's teeth through the fluid itself (inot what i think happened to ours, cause it should basically stop once the fluid level drops far enough that the gears are not dragging through it anymore)

an other easy way to get atf fluid to foam is in a P/S system (it's calls for ATF right on the pump, like the 5w-20 on the oil fill cap for the engine) and getting air entrapped withen the pump itself cause it was not bleed properly/enough or a seal is bad and letting enough air into the system without actually leaking out (pump just blends it right into the fluid)

acutee

Let's give your tests two hypothesises. Let's say your test is #1:

Hypothesis #1: Z1 gets overheat sooner than amsoil. amsoil is good.

Hypothesis #2: Z1 obsorbs the heat better than Amsoil does. Meaning the clutch pack is overheating and amsoil is not helping to absorb and dissipate the heat to give you the proper reading at the bolt. Amsoil is bad.

So, do we know which fluid is really better? Based on these two hypothesises, we need to know the clutch pack tempurature on each fluid used, rather than on the bolt temperature. or maybe honda is not telling us that z1 is meant to obsorb heat quicker to protect the known problem, but it wont protect the tranny components as good as amsoil. where amsoil fluid is good overall, but the fluid wasn't appropriate for treating the known problem.

I am sure we all know how pure water vs pure coolant works in the coolant system. I am talking about pure water vs pure coolant to make it more obvious rather than talking about why we have to mix it 50/50.

Skirmich

Yeah it sounds pretty much like that. one or the other could be the issue. But by now im pretty much f"#$ since they are rebuilding it (yet again). The good thing is that the warranty is going to be reseted so i have my Full 100% again what im going to do, is to give the tranny a crap out of itself and i mean driving it like crazy since they say that if fails they will rebuild it (no questions asked) for free in the 3000K 3Months frame.

Why i was wondering if it could have caused an Accident? like tranny lock-up? since i didnt noticed until i came home the tranny could have lock-up while driving making me crash?? i dont now. but if the tranny puke all the ATF again im going to Sue them... for Big... does the Lemon Law apply here? lol

friesm2000

iTrader: (4)

so they are paying for it all then, like no money out of your pocket; just your out of a car for a couple of days then???

not really, cause as soon as you lost enough fluid you had to pull over to the side of the road, so the bearings and such still had enough lubrication to them, and when it started to slip, what was it basically a half mile at max???

lemon law, NO, it is not exactly a new car anymore, let alone the dealer/manufacture not being able to have a chance at fixing it

Skirmich

Nope they have me to pay 50/50%, 650$ bucks that werent on my To-Do-List-4-The-Month since its my only car for work and college i need it ASAP. im riding Cabs for now.

Besides if i were to sue them its going to be for the tranny and tranny only to make them pay for it FULL 100% since this issue never happened before im pretty much confident that its a Rebuilt issue and not a design flaw.
Like i said the tranny never
make a hint since i was Cruising for 1 hour at 55mph so it never slipped cuz it was at 5th gear full time, only when i came to a toll booth it started to show signs of slip.
All the ATF puked while Cruising. Cruise Control enabled i mean, thereafter the tranny burned from the excess heat

friesm2000

iTrader: (4)

, that's expensive, might almost be cheaper to go rent a car, depend on how much you have to get around

as said it puked during cruse, so the gear was already filled with fluid, so it just needed enough to maintain the pressure to hold the gear, then during accelerating from toll booth, the gears are changing, so fluid is being released and reapplied, so it needs more (let alone during cruise the TC be locked up too, so not much fluid needed there ethier to maintain lockup)


also bearing do not need a whole lot of fluid to keep them happy (i don't think they even have pressurized fluid ethier, just splash lubrication, which it would have been bathed in with foam to keep them happy

also it is extremely hard to sieze things up when they are rotating, so the issue would have been if you stopped at the toll booth to pay, but yes there would be a higher chance of a bearing litalley falling apart from the heat, but it be making one hell of a noise then though

Skirmich

Well yes but then again, i love my car lol and if i rent a car i would be tempted to buy a new one hahaha, just 2 more days now and i will have my doomed car again (wich i love damn) thanks for all the Reply´s "Friesm2000" i will keep the tranny from now on with the shitty Honda-Z1 (and change it same time as Engine Oil every 3000K ATF is cheaper anyway) and hope that the new kevlar clutches hold up at least 3 years with it. i will be using the 2 Heavy Duty ATF coolers full time now. even in winter

friesm2000

iTrader: (4)

rentals cars can do that, but then again the econoboxes they give you for the cheapest prices, are big POS's, so i don't think that would really make you want to go out and buy a new car then

every 3k , might be a little drastic i think, hey it's your tranny and your $, so why not then (i would think every 15k [with honda atf, even though you may not like it] would be good, but then again you never made it that far proably on the rebuilt

also were't you already running the coolers before and it still puked itself???


also Np for the replys, just happy that someone else reported the same problem, and my car is not the only one that has puked itself

fsttyms1

Good luck trying to sue them You will spend more on legal fees than you could ever hope to gain from it.

Also dont go beating the shit out of the trans right off the bat. If its going to die, it most likely wont be in the first 3k miles.