Guest

I'm really struggling trying to decide between a 02 Acura TL Type S and a 01 BMW 325i. I was very impressed by both during the test drives. They both had plenty of power and handled well. The BMW will cost somewhere around $5K more.

The Type S seems great. It would be perfect if it had a little more styling. It really looks very conservative. The BMW wins here. But the Type S is still sharp.

The other things that would be nice on the Type S is a fold down back seat and a trip computer of some sort. I'm a gadget freak, and would miss that.

Any thoughts on this? I'm sure others have been through this as well. Thanks!

happy

If you are a guy, go for Type S.

If you are a lady, go for 325i.

325i is a show off car for the ladies.

thejavagod

Every time I drive my cousin's 330ix I wished I had bought one! BMWs drive like a dream! They definately live up to their claim as the ultimate driving machine. Here are the cons that influenced me not to purchase one, but its upto you to decide if you can live with it

Cost - equipped like the TLS it is just insanely expensive!
Reliability - it will be in the shop a lot
Insurance - its very costly to insure

SergeTL02

I agree with you completly. My friend just got a 325, and now he wishes he got a TLS after going test driving with me.

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"TL is an awesome car" VW dealer in Long Island.

lonny

FORGET BMW - ANY BMW - they are all the same - overpriced "hey - look at me" cars! Who needs 'em. TLS is better all the way.

8ball

Personally, I don't care which one you buy.
Just wanted to give a heads up to any MIZZOU fan!

P.S.: get the TL-S

SLVR TL

I'd go with TL-S. Great price, tons of standard luxurious amenities, reliabilty, great re-sale value, etc.

All of my friends that drive BMW have had problems with their cars. And I personally do not like how bulky bimmer 3 series sedans look. If you were going after their coupes, this would have been a different story. ..cuz I do like the 330 ci.

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Y2K SiLVeR TL, non-navi
SLVR TL Homepage

Let's do a SoCal TL meet soon!

BlackShadow

At least compare the BMW 330 to the TL-S, not the 325.
BTW, get the TL-S so you don't have to worry about your car in a few years.

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Binh


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vperkins2

Ok, I know I'm new to this forum... but is anyone in this forum gonna tell you to get the BMW? This is the TL-S forum, for god-sakes! LOL

I want a TL-S for personal reasons. I'm not sure anyone could change my mind -- not even if I visited the "BMW 325i" forum!

So, good luck with your choice. I'm sure you'll enjoy either car!

Vincent

P.S. Except with the TL-S you'll have 5-grand extra in your pocket!

SLVR TL

or 5K extra to spend on your mods.

RX-72ATL-S

In my opinion you get more for your money with a TL-S. I compared the 330 before I decided to go with the Acura, but it was going to run me a spidge over $40,000. I couldn't find any reason to justify that, besides saying I drive a BMW. Your looking at 325s. I wouldn't chintz out on a 325. It's a dog. The 3 series is small too. I had to move my seat up just so someone could sit behind me. Wasn't the most comfortable. But if you can spend low $40s, I would go with the 330. Get the premium package, and the sport package, add the sunroof, HIDs, and the leather, not the fake leather. You'll have a bad a$$ BMW. It will still be about the same speed if you get the auto, but hey it's a BMW right?

It's only money

Turboara

type S hand down over a 325.
If you like gadgets, get the nav.
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- Nick
waiting for my 2002 Type S (Satin Silver)
1990 Eagle Talon tsi awd (barely stock)

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SimTypeS

Type-S = front wheel drive, more room, less "look at me" appeal, better insurance and reliablity, ...

325i - Nope, you have to compare it to the 330i, which is ~$8K more equally equipped. Rear wheel drive, option of manual trany, "Hi, I have a Bimmer" advantage as a pick-up line, you get to build up your anxiety by having to wait ~90 for delivery, ...

Check out www.bimmer.org and see what the E46 guys have to brag about and complain about.

black2000

MizzouFan:

Get the TL if you want a larger, more powerful, better equiped car.

Get the 325 if you want better handling or a manual transmission.

These are both great cars, but as far as I'm concerned, they're totally different animals. The TL is a high, high value front-drive luxury car with a nice dose of "sport". The 325 is a true sports sedan, but if you're not willing to pay big bucks, you sacrifice all sorts of features. And no matter how much you pay, the back seat's never getting any bigger!

Personally, I'd like a 325i Sport with a 5-speed manual as my second car. That would compliment my TL perfectly!

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David

Black-on-Black non-NAV 2000

Guest

I traded in our 1988 735i for a TL Type-S. We looked at the new BMWs and found that although they may appear more stylish from the outside, the inside and guts favor the TL-S by a longshot. So much more value for what you get.

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2002 TL Type S w/Navi WDP
2001 MDX Silver Tour/Navi

Gomez

I wish I'd have bought a BMW, and will probably do it next car I buy. Also, you can get one for not too much money if you special-order it with just a few options.

My suggestion: get a used 528i or 540i with an extended service contract.

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'01 White Diamond Pearl 3.2TL
-Wing, tint, wood and Whistler

AC

Ditto!

If you get a 540i, TRUST me, you WON'T regret it. It's much more fun to drive and the car has all the power you need, uhmmm, in every gear

But if you're set on TLS vs 325, then get the TLS, no doubt. If the 330 is an option, then I'd say get the 330 with Sports Package and manual...damn fun car to drive.

But then, you need to drive the cars to really see what suits you more.

roadman

How did you narrow down you're choices to the TLS vs a 325. There is a significant size difference in the cars and an even more substantial difference in HP, something like 80hp. That is a huge difference. Just wondering why you did not compare like vehicles. Say a 325 , Passat, A4 to each other all have similar size and power. The TLS is more along the lines of a 530, Buick Regal/Bonneville Supercharged.

hunter001

I think his comparison solely factored in the price....not features, power or size...



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2000 Naples Gold 3.2TL/Navi - Factory Stock but with up-graded tires

AC

No offense to any TLS drivers, TLS will never compare to 530i, just not nearly as classy or in any shape size or form in the same category. The TLS would be a better comparison to a ES300 or I30, but never to any 5 series. I guess all the Car mags feel the same way I do since you never see them compared to any 5 series. I own a TL and never in a million years would you ever catch me saying "my 540i is about the same as my TL". Sorry, but that's not why I bought the TL.

I do feel that the TL/TLS is better suited to compete with the 325, but not the 330. Maybe cuz the price, but not performance.

DJ Iceman

We keep going back and forth on this. Maybe to YOU it's no comparison between a TL and a 5-series. To me, I am directly choosing between the TL-S, 540i, and Lexus GS430 for my next car. I see them as being in exactly the same league. The biggest difference is the tens of thousands of dollars less the Acura costs; the differences in performance, fit/finish, etc. are pretty darn small in my estimation. I own an Acura and a BMW right now, and I would put the Acura light years ahead in terms of build quality and customer service of their dealers.

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Why doesn't everybody make cars as well as Acura?

ssokol91

You want a good BMW?
Buy yourself a certified used 540 (preferrably manual tranny). Get it with no more than 30k miles. Certification gives you 100k miles warranty bumper-to-bumper.
My best friend just got one.
In terms of interior I like TL-S much better, but performance
....FUGETABUUHHGGHTIT.
Go take one for a test drive.

chiawei

BMW handles much better than TL. The 3 series chassis is tighter than TL/TL-S chassis. Try to throw your TL-S around the corner, and you can feel the weakness of Accord based chassis.

Regard fit and finish. My TL has more problem than my 530i.

For the amount of money you are looking to spend, why not go for a used 540i 6 speed. Although you probably will have to pay over $35k to get a decent used 540i 6 speed.

But it's a great car. TL-S is an excellent value, but it's not an ultimate driving machine.

BMW is much more rewarding to drive.

SimTypeS

OK... here it is. If you are comparing on the basis of price, then get a TL-S. It has more value for the money, comparable performance, but front-wheel drive versus rear. So you decide if you want front or rear drive. Both have benefits. Add a few things to your TL-S to tighten the chasis up, and it will handle better.
If price isn't a factor, bump it up to the 330i (which is NOT the size of a Civic!), or like these guys are say, the 5401. And to those that said a bigger car cannot handle like a smaller compact, go look at the numbers for an M5, or CLK-55. Much better than an Integra.
Open up and take a few more test drives. LOTS of cars out there, and there will always be better ones when the 2002s come out, then the 2003s, then the 2004s...

hunter001

[QUOTE]Originally posted by SimTypeS:
If price isn't a factor, bump it up to the 330i (which is NOT the size of a Civic!), [quote]

Sorry I beg to differ....both the Honda Civic and the BMW 330i are classified by the EPA as compact cars....The compact cars have interior volume from 100 - 109 cubic feet. Both these cars belong to the lower end of the above range.

The Acura 3.2TL belongs to a higher class - mid-size. Here the interior volume ranges from 110 - 119 cubic feet. So yes, the BMW 330i is sized pretty close to a Honda Civic. Slightly larger than a Toyota Corolla since the Corolla belongs to the sub-compact class....


And to those that said a bigger car cannot handle like a smaller compact, go look at the numbers for an M5, or CLK-55. Much better than an Integra.

Let us not talk of factory tuner cars....Talking of everyday cars, say for example everything else remaining the same, a smaller car would be nimbler and handle better than a larger car....for example, the BMW 330i would handle better and be more tossable than the larger BMW 530i which in turn would handle better than the still larger BMW 740i...even though all of these have pretty similar weight distribution (50/50) and steering feel....this priciple does not take rocket science to figure out...

BMWs by and large have extremely good weight distribution which makes for great handling....except for the slightly compromised and cheap front suspension (MacPherson struts to save space)....but it does not alter the fact that they have over-inflated prices...because BMW recognises the brand cachet of its name and know that people will buy it, regardless of the 5-6 grands that they might overpay for the privilege of driving a BMW......

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2000 Naples Gold 3.2TL/Navi - Factory Stock but with up-graded tires

AC

[quote]Originally posted by hunter001:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by SimTypeS:
If price isn't a factor, bump it up to the 330i (which is NOT the size of a Civic!),

Quote:

Sorry I beg to differ....both the Honda Civic and the BMW 330i are classified by the EPA as compact cars....The compact cars have interior volume from 100 - 109 cubic feet. Both these cars belong to the lower end of the above range.

The Acura 3.2TL belongs to a higher class - mid-size. Here the interior volume ranges from 110 - 119 cubic feet. So yes, the BMW 330i is sized pretty close to a Honda Civic. Slightly larger than a Toyota Corolla since the Corolla belongs to the sub-compact class....


And to those that said a bigger car cannot handle like a smaller compact, go look at the numbers for an M5, or CLK-55. Much better than an Integra.

Let us not talk of factory tuner cars....Talking of everyday cars, say for example everything else remaining the same, a smaller car would be nimbler and handle better than a larger car....for example, the BMW 330i would handle better and be more tossable than the larger BMW 530i which in turn would handle better than the still larger BMW 740i...even though all of these have pretty similar weight distribution (50/50) and steering feel....this priciple does not take rocket science to figure out...

BMWs by and large have extremely good weight distribution which makes for great handling....except for the slightly compromised and cheap front suspension (MacPherson struts to save space)....but it does not alter the fact that they have over-inflated prices...because BMW recognises the brand cachet of its name and know that people will buy it, regardless of the 5-6 grands that they might overpay for the privilege of driving a BMW......

I guess, it's kinda like buying Armani vs. Polo, though the same material and quality, difference in cost.

hunter001

Your are talking of the performace between the 8-cylinder 540i vs the 6-cylinder TL-s.....basically when new, you can buy 2 TL-s for the price of a new loaded 540i....

If you are talking of the base model BMW 325i, then I don't think it should be compared with the TL-s even if the Automagazines feel otherwise.....the 3-series BMW is a sub-compact, and is sized pretty similarly to the Honda Civic....silly to compare its acceleration/Handling to the larger/heavier TL-s....IMHO No large car handles as well as a compact or sub-compact.

What if you were to compare the Acura Integra Type-R to the BMW 740i and say that the 740i feels ponderous beside the FWD Integra ? Is it a fair comparison ? Ignoring the price, the 740i is a large car and cannot compare with the tossability of the FWD Integra...

Don't get me wrong, but BMWs are great cars, but their prices are highly inflated. Just because BMWs are highly over-inflated in price does not mean that price alone should be the basis for comparing cars from competitors...

just my 2c

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2000 Naples Gold 3.2TL/Navi - Factory Stock but with up-graded tires

SimTypeS

Come on. Have you ever sat in a Civic? Have you sat in a 330i? Even if the interior has the same cubic space, which feels roomier?

Weght distribution? Isn't the TL-S something like 48/52?

The comments about the M5 were just to point out that bigger cars CAN be nimble. How much did that Mitsu 3000 GT VR4 wheigh? Two tons? How well does a Geo Metro handle?

I had a 330i on order, and canceled it 2 days before I was supposed to pick it up after waiting for 80 days, so, I am not taking sides here. He just needs to research, and figure out what is best for HIM. Heck, if I had the money, I would ... I don't know what I would do. Get a Corvette Z06 and an Acura MDX?

Play nice...

AC

You're absolutely right, to ME it's no comparison and it's just my opinion.

hunter001

Originally posted by SimTypeS:
Come on. Have you ever sat in a Civic? Have you sat in a 330i? Even if the interior has the same cubic space, which feels roomier?

I sat in both, and actually felt the same amount of space in both those cars...."feeling roomier" and reality are totally different....the Honda Civic and the 330i are exactly the same size...even though few people would cross-shop between these, since size is not the only consideration while purchasing cars...

Originally posted by SimTypeS:
Weght distribution? Isn't the TL-S something like 48/52?

No, actually the distribution is 62/38....no FWD car with the engine in the front can have a 50:50 weight distribution. In a RWD car you can have it because of the rear axle....you will have 50:50 weight distribution in the RWD Honda S2000 and the RWD Honda (Acura) NSX....

Originally posted by SimTypeS:
The comments about the M5 were just to point out that bigger cars CAN be nimble. How much did that Mitsu 3000 GT VR4 wheigh? Two tons? How well does a Geo Metro handle?

The Mitsu 3000 GT VR4 with AWD is a good handler compared to regular cars...but if you compare its handling to the mid-engined Honda S2000 (50/50 weight distribution) or the Aircraft aluminium alloy bodied, mid-engined, hand-built Acura NSX (50/50 weight distribution with a low polar MI), it would feel crude, ponderous and boat-like.... the Geo metro is not purpose built by its manufacturer for handling...it is a pure econo-box.....

The reason why I gave the examples of 3 cars from the same manufacturer (330i/530i/740i), built using the same manufacturing techniques and possibly in the same plant is to show that smaller the size, better the tossability. Of course, you can tune a larger car for better handling. But if the same tuning is done on the smaller car by the same manufacturer, you can bet your last penny that it will certainly handle better than the larger car that had the same amount of handling tuning ...

Later...


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2000 Naples Gold 3.2TL/Navi - Factory Stock but with up-graded tires

SimTypeS

Whatever. Change this into a BMW comparison page, or give this guy advise. I was stating that a bigger car CAN be tuned to handle. I don't care about "tuning is done on the smaller car by the same manufacturer" and either does he; it's a Bimmer versus a TLS. He can stiffen it up a little. And sorry that I did not have the weight distribution correct. I'm not the one trying to decide which car to buy. We shouldn't have to tell the guy the differences. He should research the car, figure out what fits HIM, then go test drive, or he will never be sure if he made the right choice.
I'm very happy with my choice. The 330i felt so nice (and if "the Honda Civic and the 330i are exactly the same size", then the Bimmer is laid out differently to feel much roomier. Reality or not. Ever seen two houses that had the same square feet, but one seemed bigger?) but I wanted more room. Does that matter to him? September is just a ways off. Maybe he should wait for the other 2002 models. BMW is coming out with other models, right? 1, 2, and 6 series?
Get out there and drive them, then come back and tell us what you think.

Webologist

True, 528i/530i isn't is same class as TL-S. Much less horsepower. Compact vs. Midsize. Cheap Macpherson Struts vs Double wishbone suspension. Vanos vs VTEC (Vanos lasts about 70K miles before rebuild for $1.7K). Standard Leatherette vs Leather. High price vs reasonable price. Clearly these two vehicles are not in the same league... By the way I think price is the main reason they usually test the TL-S vs the Sub-Compact 3 series. Imagine if they lined up a poor unfortunate 6 cylinder, auto transmission 5 series against the TL-S...

Please realize I really like BMWs in general and the 5 series in particular. They just aren't in "another higher class" in any way unless you option up for a V-8. Most of them here is SoCal are powered by 2.8s and have autos. Sorry but they're going to get dusted severly by the TL-S. No amount of wishful thinking or brand loyalty/snobbery is going to change that.

Regards
-w

AC

I can't argue the above, I think you've made great points. I think I prematurely spoke, I did mention in another post after this one that it just boils down to personal preferences and opinions. Also, I think it's like comparing Armani (BMW) to Polo (Acura)...yet both same quality the other costs more. Please, no one take offense to the Armani-Polo comparison, just threw something up...

sboje

Let me ask you this. If Honda raised the price of the TL-S to $48k, do you think the sales would compare to the 530i? How about the GS430? No way in hell. Why is that? Becuase it isn't as much car as a 530 or a GS430. If people thought it was that great of a car, Honda would raise the price... especially since they don't have large production numbers to begin with.

The people have spoken with their wallets.

I'll take full credit for winning this argument lol

91M5

Rebuilds for BMW's with vanos at 70k? Please state facts. That is simply not true but I figure you are trying to win the argument.

Those inferior Macpherson struts seem to consistently win awards for best handling car when put on BMW's. They may be old school but BMW does them better than anyone. An inline 6 isn't necessarily the best engine design but again BMW has pretty much sticks with what they know best.

They are overpriced which is why I would only buy a BMW used. Let someone else pay for all those options. :-)

Webologist

The VANOS item came from Roundel, the official magazine of the BMW Car Club of America. An owner was complaining to the tech guys about it. I was shocked to learn that rebuilds like this are considered normal too.

BMWs really do handle well. I think they've hit on a winning formula. They combine rear wheel drive, a stiff body structure and very large tires for the size of the car. I believe the last item is key. The superiority of the double wishbone suspension is illustrated by the very good G forces the TL/CL are capable of despite their very smallish (compared to BMW) tires and the fact they are heavier, since they are usually compared to BMWs 1 or 2 size catagories smaller.

Associating what people will pay with the technical superiority of a vehicle may be off base. People will pay as much or more for a Harley (Air cooled, twin, pushrods, 2 valve per cylinder, mild steel frame, belt drive, small tired, mild steel swing arm, etc.) than they would for a ZX-10, Hayabusa etc that makes twice the horsepower, handles like it's from a different planet, is much more reliable. (Water cooled, 4 cylinder, DOHC, 4 valve per cylinder, strong light twin spar aluminum frame, need I go on?) The Harley name has enough cachet to make people pay more for their product. It has nothing to do with production cost or the goodness of the relative packages. In any measure of performance the Harley will loose very badly. This doesn't keep Harley's faithful from buying it.

It's an image thing...

BMWs are great cars. So are Acuras. The reason this debate comes up again and again is that people are torn between these two packages. I still like BMWs but I chose the TL-S because it's the best overall package for my needs, and I couldn't be happier with my choice. For some nothing but a BMW will do, that's their choice and I respect it fully.

Regards
-w

hunter001

From what I read a while back, Honda is bringing a RWD Sedan/Coupe based on the excellent S2000 platform. This supposedly is to compete with the Toyota Altezza (Lexus IS200/300)....and effectively positions it directly against the BMW 3-series...

With a 50/50 weight distribution and Honda's extensive Racing experience, this car should be worth watching out for....hopefully they would be able to get the styling right with this car...

As for myself, I think I will seriously look at the Subaru Impreza WRX for my next car....to supplement the TL.

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2000 Naples Gold 3.2TL/Navi - Factory Stock but with up-graded tires

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1" FACE="Verdana, Arial">[This message has been edited by hunter001 on June 12, 2001 @ ]</font>