Guest

Is it possible...? Based on posted comments and dyno results, approximate numbers of course, here's one way to get there:

All power approximations are at the crankshaft...not the wheels.

225 Stock Level
20 Comptech Headers
10 AEM CAI
5 Mugen exhaust
15 Big Bore Throttle Body
10 Underdrive Pulleys
20 Cam Shaft

305 Total

Based on some posts/results, these numbers may actually be on the conservative side!

I didn't list the V-AFC because I have no idea what performance gains, if any, we could expect.

1999TL

Some of those are a bit optimistic- it's better to talk about power at the wheels.

Guest

I don't know about you, but I want to know the numbers both ways (total and at the wheels)...and what items do you think are optimistic, after you factor in powertrain losses? Based on the loss factors I've seen, and the estimated "at the wheel" gains for these various mods, my guess is these numbers are conservative.

1999TL

for one, the under drive pulleys. I won't believe that until I do it on mine or something.

Guest

sure, could be less for the pulleys...of course, we've all seen BNut's post...he shows dyno results with 10 at the wheels.

On the other hand, Superhonda estimates up to 10% for a big-bore throttle body...that's a lot more than I listed...makes you think.

TL1026

does anybody know the websites or anywhere else i can learn more about the big bore throttle body? or any other throttle body?

Guest

has some good info...bear in mind though that it seems JG Engine Dynamics has gone out of business and no one else seems to sell them for the TL. I have a new Acura throttle body coming in tomorrow that I'm sending out to be bored....they'll also construct a new butterfly from stainless...should be interesting!

LagunaTL

some of those numbers are over rated. besides, their effects may not be additive. 35% horse power gain without major engine mods or forced induction is unrealistic.

Guest

really? which ones? You could be right, of course that the mods are not cumulative, I'm certainly no expert, but I wonder if it might actually be the opposite...that mods that reduce restrictions (intake, headers, exhaust)will produce more gain as the engine produces more power with mods like camshafts, etc.

snook789

Ramsen, those #'s look right to me

F=ma

Ramsen, with aftermarket TB's there's no telling what'll happen. Bear in mind that when a company states it gains 10% or so, that's the best they've ever done. Some engines don't need the extra bore... because do bear in mind that while yes the volume of air that moves through the orifice does go up, the velocity it travels at goes down. Same principle that exhaust gasses work on. (go figure)

I forget specifically which model car and which TB, but a test was done where the car actually lost power from an aftermarket throttle body.

Don't let me stop you though, it certainly does have potential, I just don't have a good grasp as to whether 1-2 hp, 9-10 hp, or -1 to -2 hp would result.

------------------
Kenny
TL

BNut

Ramsen,

Where are you having this custom bored TB done at, and how much is it gonna run you? (Parts + labor + S&H) I definitely want to see what kind of gains you get from it. Please let us know how it turns out.


------------------
Brian =B-)
2000 Accord LX V6 Sedan White - 3,310 lbs w/ driver - 170HP & 160ft/lbs
- Eibach Pro-Kit (1.5" drop)
- Red AEM Short RAM Intake (8-10hp & 5-6 ft/lbs gain on a DynoJet)
- Red AEM Pulleys
- 15.5 @ 88mph (Track) [Time with AEM intake]

Guest

The throttle body runs 235 from A&H Motorsports...I'm still working on the price for the machining...I'll let you know.

DragonTL

I hate to sound like a person to be negative or pessimistic, but adding horsepower numbers for each component is not accurate at all. I was on the SAE Formula 1 intake/exhaust tuning team at the University of Texas at Austin and from my research and data analysis, you cannot just add the numbers.
The thing about the numbers is that one item may improve your horsepower by 10 but then some other mod may actually decrease that. It's hard to explain exactly, but please do not believe that adding an exhaust is going to add 5hp and then add headers and add 20hp. It may very well be that you add both the exhaust and headers and only gain 10hp. All those manufacturer claims are not accurate for the average car, because the company can claim a certain hp increase due to their results from a completely modded car. They may say an AEM intake will add up to 10hp, and in actuality our car may only add 5hp.

Also to keep in mind is not max hp increase but an increase in the entire hp band. The same goes for the torque.

For example, you add an intake and you have a max horsepower increase of 10 @ 6000rpm. However, the rest of the band you have an increase of 1hp. Then you look at another intake and look at the dyno results and see a max increase of 6hp, but you have a consistent 4hp throughout the band. I promise you you will see a much better increase in quarter mile times with the second intake.

So don't be fooled by the max hp gain, always try to find a dyno chart and see the overall increase.

Another note, with an increased throttle body, you will not notice a difference in hp unless you port match the intake manifold, because without the match you may actually see a decrease in hp due to the abrupt resistance of the intake manifold entrance which causes the flow to be turbulent.

You may be a little skeptical about my statements, but I learned all this through experience and through theoretical education in mechanical engineering @ UT. =)

I hope you guys can understand what I have said. If any questions, please feel free to email me or whatever.

Guest

Once read a newspaper article about getting better MPG. I read something like this:

Properly inflated tires +20%
Engine Tune-up +15%
Drive the Speed limit +10%
Change filters +10%

Sso on and so on. Someone added up all the percentages and wrote a thank you letter for the information--they saw a 107% improvement in their fuel economy!

They asked for one more tip: what they can do with all the extra gasoline... since no gas stations wanted to buy the gasoline the car kept generating, coming up the fuel filler pipe.

I thought this was a funny example of how numbers don't add up. I can't imagine you can get all the performance gains with just bolt-on items... It takes more than that, even with a somewhat accumulative effect.

------------------
2000 3.2 TL, Paper maps.
Comptech axle-back exhaust.
225/55ZR-16 RE730s on OEM alloys.
205/55QR-16 Alpins on steel wheels w/covers (winter).

Pictures

Guest

I understand and agree entirely. This is why we like dyno results so much... we see the overall improvement (area under the curve).

Isn't it conspicuous (sp?) how many dyno charts from vendors begin around 4500 RPM? This is because they kill your low-to-midrange torque, leaving you with a car that either chugs or screams.



------------------
2000 3.2 TL, Paper maps.
Comptech axle-back exhaust.
225/55ZR-16 RE730s on OEM alloys.
205/55QR-16 Alpins on steel wheels w/covers (winter).

Pictures

Guest

Thanks DragonTL!! What you say makes a lot of sense...I can certainly imagine a scenario where two mods may add the same amount of power, but at two different parts of the powerband, thus, in a sense, adding no peak horsepower...I may not be using the right terminology here, but it's the thought that counts!

Regarding the throttle body, I am told by a local Acura "expert" that the intake manifold on the TL does not need to be "matched" to the increased size of the TB...why, I'm not sure. Guess we'll find out. Lots of theories out there...but,like you said, the dyno will have the last word.

BNut

Actually if its an automatic I can tell you why. Typically when you do a dyno its under WOT conditions, correct? Well what happens when you floor an automatic and its in D3? It downshifts to 1st or 2nd depending on the speed, correct? Well after watching my car being dyno'd I now understand why my dyno charts start at around 4,200rpms, because that is the lowest rpm that 3rd gear starts at after you upshift from 2nd at redline. There is a little box that has buttons on it that start and stop the dyno. Basically they took my car up to about 40mph, floored the gas... the car down shifted to 2nd, ran up to about 75mph, then upshifted to 3rd, that is when the they started the dyno, which just happened to be right above 4,000 rpms. I then watched the speedometer climb to about 115mph which is where 3rd gear winds out on the Accord V6, and that was when my dyno run ended. Finally, if you are drag racing, how many seconds are you going to spend going less than 4,000rpms? How about 2.3 seconds it takes you to go the first 60ft, because after that I promise you, your rpm needle should never go south of 4,000rpms. I've tried to beat this into all the Grand AM owners who try to scream that low end 215ft/lbs of torque and 175HP would help them kick my Accords azz in a drag race when their power curve takes a HUGE nose dive from 5,000rpms towards the redline of 6,000rpms.

I have seen dyno's that start from 2,000 and 2,500rpms so I'm curious how they do that in an automatic.

Also, I never believe all the advertising hype, that is why I've had all my products dyno'd before and after they were installed, and now I laugh when people claim that my own personal dyno's are subject to doubt and disbelief because my improvements are better than what the manufacturer even claims I should be getting.

Finally I laugh at the ignorance of many people when they look at the dyno chart, completely ignoring all the graphs and do nothing but look at the peak numbers for HP and torque and ask me why my torque went up to 192ft/lbs???

I want to reply "DUMBAZZ, did you even look at the chart?!?! That is a spike reading from when the dyno starting recording information." But no, instead I try to patiently explain to them that the peak numbers are not representative of the actual HP and torque, and that to see that they must instead look at the graphs.

But alas I digress... I guess I just needed to vent or something. Then again, why should you believe me? Prove me wrong and dyno YOUR mods, before and after they are installed. Please do not take any of my comments as being directly personally against anyone on this board. I just got back from watching The Contender so I guess I'm feeling a little long winded or something.

------------------
Brian =B-)
2000 Accord LX V6 Sedan White - 3,310 lbs w/ driver - 170HP & 160ft/lbs
- Eibach Pro-Kit (1.5" drop)
- Red AEM Short RAM Intake (8-10hp & 5-6 ft/lbs gain on a DynoJet)
- Red AEM Pulleys
- 15.5 @ 88mph (Track) [Time with AEM intake]

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1" FACE="Verdana, Arial">[This message has been edited by BNut on 10-23-2000 @ ]</font>

Guest

Good points. We's got some owners with real heads on their shoulders... very refreshing.

However, some of us are getting old and only venture above 4500 when we move the seat forward too quickly and bump the gas pedal by mistake

------------------
2000 3.2 TL, Paper maps.
Comptech axle-back exhaust.
225/55ZR-16 RE730s on OEM alloys.
205/55QR-16 Alpins on steel wheels w/covers (winter).

Pictures

Red Hot TL

I'm getting old, too. well, not old, but afraid of getting another ticket


------------------
2000 Red Hot TL w/o nav
Burlwood Trim and Shift Knob
Wood Trim Set
Gutter Guard Grill
Photos Of My RED HOT TL
I DONT'T HAVE A LIFE

Guest

Yeah...or slump forward asleep cause we missed our naps. I really hate that...and then the car makes that funny VTEC noise...it really irritates those security guys in their golf carts trying to keep us to the 5mph limit of our assisted living village.

Guest

Yeah, it'll be interesting to find out! By the way, I'm planning to use a stock throttle body that's been bored out, not an aftermarket one.

I guess I'll need to find someone with a dyno to measure the results before and after.

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1" FACE="Verdana, Arial">[This message has been edited by Ramsen on 10-23-2000 @ ]</font>

BNut

Any more news on the bored throttle body?

Guest

Yeah, just came in! I'll be installing it early next week.

BNut

Sweet! You plan on getting it dyno'd or taking your car to the track?

Guest

I'm having trouble finding a dyno that'll take a front-wheel-drive car. They say it's not safe...if I can't find one, I'll have to rely on the GTech.

BNut

WHAT? Not safe? Those fools must be smoking some good stuff! I have pics of my car of my FWD car on the dyno. Hell, in a FWD car you have the weight of the engine on top of the wheels to make sure that the wheels don't start slipping when you gun the gas peddle. I saw a mpeg of a dyno of a mega HP Supra where the rear end actually wiggled a little when they hit the gas.

------------------
Brian =B-)
2000 Accord LX V6 Sedan White - 3,310 lbs w/ driver - 170HP & 160ft/lbs
- Eibach Pro-Kit (1.5" drop)
- Red AEM Short RAM Intake (8-10hp & 5-6 ft/lbs gain on a DynoJet)
- Red AEM Tru Power Pulleys (10hp @ 5,600rpms & 11ft/lbs @ 4,600rpms gain on a DynoJet)
- 15.5 @ 88mph (Track) [with AEM intake] 0-60mph 7.2 sec (G-Tech) [with intake/pulleys]

Edr0e

songoku

How come I see old posts that are about 2 years old now???

johnnyb_s

Ask Edr0e...it appears that he is the one bringing back all these old posts...

patrick

He's a post whore, trying to get his post counts up! :p

dimsumo

Those UT boys are smart