Guest

Participated in a Honda sponsored test drive that included TL-S, BMW 330, BWM 530, Mercedes C320, Audi A4. There were 3 test tracks--handling/acceleration, acceleration/braking, comfort/road noise/ergonomics.

I can say that the acceleration of the TL-S is awesome. However, handling is disappointing--basically little different than the current TL. Excessive body roll compared to the other cars. Of course the TL-S was the only front wheel drive car of the bunch and also the only car with "all season" tires rather than performance tires.

By the way, I would definitely NOT pay a premium for the TL-S (i.e., over sticker) since, from discussions following the drives, it sounds like the TL-S will be the base model TL the following year (i.e., 2003) and something even more aggressive will be available with the "S" model.


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Doug Silver
2000 TL
1995 Vette
Los Angeles, CA

Guest

I'm jealous! So how long did you get to drive it. How much better is the acceleration than your 2000 TL? Were you able to get any actual times? Were the seats the same as the 2001 TL? Tell us more, please!

Guest

There were a total of 15 people split into 3 groups of 5. Each group went to one of the test tracks, drove each of the 5 cars once (or more if time permitted) around the track, filled out some forms and then moved on to the next test track where there were 5 more cars (different colors). In other words I got to see 3 TL-S, 3 530i, 3 Audi A4, etc. All told the entire comparison lasted about 2 hours.

One of the TL-S was a real nice blue--somewhat lighter than the Monterey Pearl that I have. Interior was similar but driver seat has 2 memory settings, gauges are silver colored, seats have perforated leather. Where the current TL has faux wood trim the TL-S has some weird looking faux dark grey trim that looks like burl (except grey!).

Throttle is really responsive and the pedal did not seem to have the slack that my TL and my son's Accord EX6 has (that slack is really annoying and has to go). One one of the tracks, the TL-S I was driving had the same type of annoying rattles and creaks inside that my TL has. Acura really has to work on this aspect of the design if they want to compare with BMW, Audi, Mercedes, and even Lexus.

Acceleration was, in a word, awesome. There were a few straightaways where we were told to floor it. The car pulled ahead like crazy and seemed to gain even more torque and pull at 60 or above. Unfortunately, handling did not seem to be improved at all versus the current TL. Same body roll at turns, oversteer, tire roll, etc. Not that the car felt bad but we were comparing it against BMW, Audi, and Mercedes.

If you want to sneak a peak, they are repeating this test drive again tomorrow. It is definitely NOT for the general public but you could probably glimpse the car if you go by Hollywood Park (Gate 2).

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Doug Silver
2000 TL
1995 Vette
Los Angeles, CA

Guest

That faux dark grey trim is what will come on all Ebony interiors. I can't stand it. I will only get the Parchment interior. Thanks for the info.

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GO GATORS!

Guest

I may be mistaken but I think all the TL-S I drove had that grey trim. The exterior colors I drove were the blue, a white (might have been pearl) and, I think, black.

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Doug Silver
2000 TL
1995 Vette
Los Angeles, CA

UHEARDME

Driving a 96 Maxima - looking to step up to something signicantly better in performance, etc. Would you go with the TL-S or wait until 03 to see what they'll have (expand on what you were told about the 03 Model Plans) thanks!

Guest

Please inform me what actually you heard that the TL-S will be the base model for 2003 and there will be something more aggresive. Did you hear this from the Honda people or the drivers that took part in the test drive.

Do you think TL-S is worth buying @ sticker or would you wait until 2003 and see if there is a more aggresive model availible that 2002 TL-S ?

Guest

The TL-S will be $32,000. We were repeatedly asked "what if" the TL-S ended up being the entry level TL and something beyond that was offered as the "S". My impression is that is Acura's thinking since the direct competition (ES300 and I30) keep goosing up the horesepower. I believe Acura wants to keep the specs of whatever they offer as the direct competition to those cars higher than what those cars offer. In two years, the ES300 and I30 will probably be above 225HP so, in a preemptive strike, Acura will move the 2002 TL-S features into the entry level 2003. This is not uncommon and I have seen other auto makers do the same thing. Only the person that paid the extra for what was "special" one year feels like an idiot the next year when it is standard.

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Doug Silver
2000 TL
1995 Vette
Los Angeles, CA

UHEARDME

As the Accord is schedueled to be re-designed for 03, what you're saying sounds correct. There probably will be a new TL in 03 (or certainly an early 04). BTW, the I30 already has 227 HP.

Guest

Thanks, Doug--great information. It makes me want to wait for 2003 to see what Acura will do to the TL-S then (300+ hp?). But alas, I need a new car now, so I guess I'll have to "settle" for the '02 TL-S.

With the larger wheels/tires and stiffer springs I'm surprised and disappointed that the TL-S's handling isn't all that much better than the current TL. But, when driving the TL-S back-to-back with the BMWs, the handling shortcomings of the Acura are probably magnified.

acuraguynj

As much as the TL Type S is exciting, did you get to try out the BMW 330 & BMW 530 with the sports package? I am now more interested in those 2 models, what are you thoughts on these models? I think the BMW 3 series is small, however if it's that good, why not?

Steveb

The I30 already has 225 plus HP. I read that the 2002 I30 along with the 2002 Maxima will have at least 260 HP.

I find it hard to believe that the larger tires and stiffer suspension made little difference over the TL.

UHEARDME

Where did you read that 02 Maxima/I30 would have 260 HP (also expand on this and are there any other features to come in 02 - 5 sp Auto, etc)?

merlyn

thx for the awesome post man! i envy you like crazy!!!

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Mugen exhaust
now ordering AEM short ram

Guest

DougSilver,

You mean to tell me that the much hyped Acura TL-S made a mediocre showing in a Honda sponsored test? Given the limitations as you state them, there seems to be little justification to favor the '02 TL-S (and its price premium)over the "regular" '02 TL. Pretty foolish thing for Honda execs to do just prior to the introduction of a new model. Did you get any feedback from any of the other drivers about their opinions of the TL-S?

Guest

Don't get me wrong--the TL-S is a fantastic value at $32K. At that price it is still less than the other cars at the comparison. Just seems that no matter what they do, the Asian engineers just can't put together handling that feels like a BMW. With respect to the 330 and 530 at the test, both were, I think, just the standard versions. Amazingly, I was most impressed with the 530 and it felt like that engine was more powerful than the 330 (although the engineers a the test drive said that both cars have identical engines). Unfortunately, the first car I drove on the acceleration/handling track was the 530 and everything else felt like crap compared with that. Of course you are talking about a sticker of about $45K so it should be better.

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Doug Silver
2000 TL
1995 Vette
Los Angeles, CA

acuraguynj

I think Doug just confirmed to us all that the BMW is an incredible precision vehicle that eventhough more expensive will impress the hell out of all us TL owners :-) If you have the money to spend, this is path to an upgrade (530i decently loaded at around $45K).

I have not test drove one yet, but I am almost convinced that this is the way to go. Besides I think we all have a dream or desire in our heads to one day be a proud owner of a BMW.

chiawei

That's why I ordered a 530i as replacement for my IS300.

530i is probably among the best handling sedan out there (not counting M5).

I think one thing that Acura should be aware that HP is not really the trump card. Handling is more of a concern for me.

Given the traffic at bay area, where can I use 300+ HP car????

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2000-Laguna Gree TL
2001-Solar Yellow IS300
2001-Titanium Silver 530i

Guest

As a past BMW owner, the only reason to pay big extra $ for a BMW is so that you can say you own a BMW (of course this applies as well to I30 versus Maxima, ES300 vs Camry, TL vs Accord EX6). BMWs are certainly fun to drive but the maintenance will eventually be a killer.

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Doug Silver
2000 TL
1995 Vette
Los Angeles, CA

chiawei

Depends on where you go though.

Over the weekend I always go to Monterrey. With all those twisting mountain road, A BMW is more useful rather than a 300+HP TL.

It's a known fact that TL stock tire does not like to be pushed. I have nearly lost control several times on highway 17.

Again, given the traffic at bay area, there is really no need to 300+HP car.

Guest

Great info on the test drive! Thanks for the post.

The question we all should be asking but no one has is how you got to be part of this "test drive" in the first place.

Can you enlighten us as to how one takes part in such a demo?


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s2ktaxi

Although I have not driven the TL-S, I have the CL-S and CL. Also driven the BMW 5 and 3 and the Audi A4 - in various transmission and suspension variations.

The TL-S is great value but pretty much a mediocre car when it comes to performance (handling AND acceleration AND feel). If they could give it the handling of a Prelude and a manual transmission, it would be great. Toss in RWD and it becomes a fantastic driver's car.

Guest

You're all very welcome. Actually, this test drive study was a follow up to focus groups that were held a few weeks ago in California.

I was chosen for the focus group because we have a TL but I believe there were also folks selected who had similar cars such as Lexus ES300, Mercedes C-class, etc. I understand that there were about 100+ people in California that took part of the focus study?the emphasis was on future design directions for the ?next? TL. By the way, the Acura folks are perplexed and somewhat disappointed at the demographic that is attracted to the TL?median age is 51 (same age as me) and Honda/Acura is used to attracting a lower age group than competing manufacturers.

After the focus group, a few of us were invited to participate in the test drive that happened Saturday and Sunday. It was the most fun I have had driving in a long time. After several laps in these cars you feel almost like a race driver--flooring on the straightaways, slipping through the slaloms, coming to a panic stop from 70+mph to test the ABS.

Oh yeah, don't want to rub it in but they actually paid us both for the focus study and the driving tests! What a life.


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Doug Silver
2000 TL
1995 Vette
Los Angeles, CA

oracion

I wouldn't mind test-driving those cars even without the $.

Steveb

Then you have to ask yourself if there's so much traffic then where can you use the handling? I think in order to take full advantage of the handling edge that BMW has you would need a race track. Lets face it, in everyday real world driving you are not going to be taken full advantage of BMW's handling edge. And it's always nice to have lots of HP when getting on the interstate or passing.

hunter001

As far as pure handling is concerned, have you driven the Honda S2000 (RWD Honda) or the Integra Type-R (FWD Honda) ? Drive those cars whom even BMWs strain to touch....I am not even talking of cars like the mid-engined Acura NSX which (during the test a year back by Mario Andretti) was bettered only by the AWD Porsche 911 (by a slim 1 point) while beating out other competitors including one of the Ferrari models, Lotus Esprit V8, Dodge Viper, Cheverolet Corvette etc...

While on a trip to Europe a while back, I had an occasion to drive the Honda Accord Type-R (FWD). Amazing handling !!! You will have trouble telling it apart from a RWD vehicle....incidentally in a handling test done by a premier European magazine, the Honda Accord Type-R beat a BMW 328i with Sport package in handling !!!....

The final handling rankings went something like this (if memory serves me correct):
#1 Audi S4 (AWD)
#2 Honda Accord Type-R (FWD)
#3 BMW 328i with Sport Package (RWD) and then a host of other cars....

Also, you said about differences between the 330 and the 530i....basically, the engines are exactly the same....but the 530 is geared a bit more aggressively than the 330 (Automatic 5-speed to Automatic 5-speed)....which accounts for the "feel" of more power in the 530...incidentally, the TL/CL-s are geared pretty conservatively (compared to the BMWs) due to which the true potential of the engines are not "felt" as much as the BMWs...due to the gearing, the BMWs would suffer a slight penalty in mileage....

just my 2c



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2000 Naples Gold 3.2TL/Navi - Factory Stock but with up-graded tires

tea elle

Hey Doug, I also was contacted for the focus group but they were full by the time I called them. I was very disappointed to miss out.



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2001 TL Silver w/ Black Leather
CL-S Wheels w/Pilots
Alpine CD Changer
Burlwood Shift Knob

Guest

Hunter001--thanks for helping me to make my point. Sure the special Type-R "tuner" Honda models, NSX and S2000 have fine handling. However, exceptional handling seems to be an inherent characteristics of ALL the German models. Compare your most basic BMW or Audi off-the-showroom-floor sedan with any similar Asian or American product. You just do not get the nimbleness and responsiveness of the German cars. On the flipside, the Asians seem to inherently know (especially Honda) how to squeeze the most power out of small displacement. And of course the prestige and handling of the German cars are offset by their enormous upkeep and less than stellar reliability. Different strokes for different folks.

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Doug Silver
2000 TL
1995 Vette
Los Angeles, CA

Guest

One inherent difference between FWD and RWD is balance of weight... with a FWD car, both the engine and transaxle are located up front. With RWD cars like the Bimmer, the transaxle's in the back, offering much better weight distribution.

In handling, it's not just about springs, shocks, and swaybars. Besides proper suspension setup, weight distribution is a key contributor. Our suspension modified Porsche 924 autocrosser, with a perfect 50/50 weight ratio between front and rear handled better than any car I have ever driven...

The other thing? You gotta love being able to step the rearend out in a RWD car and drifting through corners, carrying more speed than you could if you were in a FWD car...

hunter001

If Honda were to eschew the FWD setups in the Acura cars and make more extensive use of the available RWD S2000 platform, then that would produce some exceptional cars....those cars would have the 50:50 balance that create exceptional handling...

I would think a small sedan developed on the S2000 platform with a 2.5 to 2.8L DOHC V6/I6 engine would be a true competitor to the 3-series BMWs....with much better reliability. If they were to stretch the S2000 platform a bit and bring on some other RWD offerings (the next CL/TL ??), with available 6-speed manual transmissions, then that would be a car to be taken very seriously....especially with Honda's wide expertise in racing at the highest level(F1)....

Honda is moving in the right direction as far as the next generation RL is concerned with a rumored 5-valve per cylinder V8 and RWD...with an AWD variant with even higher performance...the NSX it is rumored will share a version of the RL engine with tuning befitting a top-notch sportscar....The RL/NSX are, if rumors are to be believed, in an advanced stage of testing/development...

just my 2c




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2000 Naples Gold 3.2TL/Navi - Factory Stock but with up-graded tires

Guest

Can't agree with u more on that last post, very true!

Closer

Sorta agree. I personally don't care if a car is front wheel or rear wheel. Just as long as everyday driving I can't "feel the difference". And in most cases, that's true.

It's pretty rare that you hear a Cadilac STS owner complaining that his car is front wheel drive.

Same with 5 or 6 speed. A good 5 speed covers 98% of what a 6 speed does for less money. Sure more is cooler, but it's really not needed. Hard to image anyone trying to market a 7 speed.

If it's engineered right, it won't matter.