roadman

AMSlink,

Thanks for the cost analysis, however the basis for you’re calculations need to be re-defined.

1st the topic is “5w-20” weight oil which the Acura TL-S calls for.

2nd Amsoil considers the change interval of this grade oil to be (xl-7500) 7,500 miles, not 25,000 miles.

3rd We all already agree that virtually “any” synthetic oil is better than a conventional oil, we can dismiss the conventional oil change analysis.

4th The oil filter is a constant regardless of the oil used, and should not be factored in.

So with those variables being set.

What are the advantages of using AMSoil grade 5w-20 over Mobil 1. Based on my calculations of the change interval based on a 15,000 mile per useage factor (2X), you get:

AMSOIL 12gts * $5.20 = $70.20 (shipping included)

Mobil 1 12qts * $4.00 = $51.60 (tax included)

Is there a performance advantage that can justify the $18.60 per year additional cost of using AMSoil over Mobil 1 ?

You may be able to clear up another question ,why does AMSoil market 2 different 100% synthetic oils, one good for 7,500 miles and one for 25,000 miles ?

Since we are on the topic of this grade oil being new, Redline just announced it's 5w-20 grade.

Road Rage

Roadman, you made my day. I want to use 5w20 but also want the best for my baby. Now I can have both!

Good cost analysis - another point that the Amsoilers have ducked is the issue of the warranty, which is a big promo point for them. That warranty has the fine print that the oil must not be adulterated for the warranty to apply - aduleration can result from the oil breaking down, environmental affects (dust/sand), and mechanical anomalies in the engine. An extended drain of any sort (let alone the 25,000 miles) practically demands an oil analysis at least twice during that period, preferably 4 times, which one either does, which increases the total cost of ownership, or does not do, and runs the real risk of having that great warranty rejected.

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Rage On!
2002 TL-S w. Comptech header/exhaust
SSR Integral A2's
17x7 45mm offset
Pirelli P7000 (Summer) 215-50/17

imax

Does use of a synthetic oil in any way affect the Acura 4 year full warranty on the car? If not must a more stringent regiment be followed when using any sythectic oil in order to maintain it's efficacy and Acura's warranty?

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'02 Acura TL-S
Satin Silver/Ebony, w/out NAV

Guest

The so called "problem of small print" in the Amsoil warranty is again being misinterpreted. Adulteration is not having dust or water, things that occur naturally in the burning of fuel in engines,would be a basis to void a warranty by Amsoil. What I reallu means that the oild shall not be modified by a "Backyard Chemist" that wants to add a quart of shall we say"ProLong Super Lubericant" to the crank case. If you then have a problem with the engine due to lubrication failure, who do you then call for warranty service, ProLong or Amsoil? amsoil will ask for Oil samples to be taken and will find you have modified the oil mixture and therefore deny warranty services. The same thing happens on any product that is warranted, modify it from it's original configeration and warranty is no longer in effect. Oil companys have spent millions of dollars to set the proper balance of a chemical package for sale. When you start to change the balance you could sometimes make it better, but then you take just as much a chance of making it worse. You do have to do research & developement before putting it into the crank case. Do you want to take that chance of playing "chemical Oil additive roulette" with your "Baby"? If you do you take the responsibility of warrantying the engine yourself.

Lrpba300

I just can't say this enough. You can read all the MSDS reports. levels of PAO's, hydrowaxes, etc., etc,. etc., but lets not forget what the BOTTOM line is. HOW WELL DOES IT PROTECT THE ENGINE PARTS, compared to regular, petro oil. If you change your oil, oil flter, air filter, tune the engine, etc, etc, I've SEEN engines torn apart using different types of oils, & there isn't that much differences. MOST people don't keep their cars for 25 years & put on 400,000 miles without rebuild job on the engine. Roadman showed the falicies of your computations for prices, & Road Rage pointed out you people can't have a civil disc. w/o name calling. I've seen engines torn down after 100,000+ miles using petro oils, changed regularly, & the parts looked great. Did it cost more? Maybe. Maybe it's the OWNER's choice which to use in THEIR engine! There are lots of good products out there, not just ONE. I just have a problem with how the Amsoil people push their products and the ATTITUDE about being a DISTRIBUTOR. They may have great products, but I will never use them, AGAIN. I use Valvoline semi-syn. and am very happy with the results. SOME people out there don't agree, sending me emails that are questionable, we have always tried to abide by the posts that we all get along and express our opinions, w/o ridicule. Poad Rage has my vote for BEST INFORMED.

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2000 3.2 TL Laguna Green
29% window tint, Clear bra, no nav
225/50/16 Aqua-Flow GTW's on OEM wheels
http://photos.yahoo.com/bc/lrpba300?...l=fld3&.src=ph

8ball

I'll second that vote. Name calling only destroys credibility. In my line of work, there's an old saying: "If you have bad facts, argue the law. If the law is bad for you, argue the facts. If you have bad facts and bad law, pound your fists on the table and yell."

I am very impressed with the level of knowledge displayed in these fora (sorry, it's the latin leaking through). I'm learning much valuable information, and having some fun to boot. I'm even more impressed when arguments are presented without personal attacks and are backed up with sound reasoning and objective factual assessments. Again, Road Rage gets my vote.

btw, for those of you who know, what's your bottom-line brand/type recommendation for TL-S oil?

8ball

Hmm...they sound like statements of opinion to me (with the possible exception of the "fraud" qoute, which is not a quote, btw), much as was my post. Such statements are not personal attacks. They are expressions of opinion about a particular product/company or point of view that appear to have been taken personally. In any event, truth is an absolute defense in a defamation action, and I've never seen a court uphold a claim for "namecalling" or "bashing". Not that I know what the ultimate truth is on this subject, but some people here seem to know their way around petrochemicals.

Lrpba300

Hey Amslink,
Let's tally this up:
1.Road Rage calls Amsoil "crap". That's an opinion, NOT an attack on you.
2.RR says something about Fed. govn fraud, quoted from another source,looks like another opinion, but maybe he's wrong(but YOU never gave anything to prove him wrong?)
3.He posted that there are more hydrowaxes than PAO's in Amsoil, but you never gave anything to show he's is 100% wrong?
4.You called him the "Cliff Claven" of the board & then you denye it in an email to me. You name called & theb lied!(Road Rage NEVER retailiated towards you!?)
5.You have NEVER said anything about a comparison to Mobil 1, Valvoline Synthetic, Pennzoil, etc. Your always compareing to petro oil??(mil $ intervals)
6.He also said that there was hydrowax in Castrol syn. also, but you NEVER complained about that?
7.He is making opinions about PRODUCTS, not attacking YOU PERSONALLY. YOU PERSONALLY attacked him. BIG DIFFERENCE!
8.You NEVER said you've seen or taken apart an engine to SEE the results of oils, of ALL kinds. You relay on reports on paper, hearsay and so forth. You finally "agreed" about the lower milage (7500) on the 5w20 oil rating, but did you reckonize a MISTAKE on your part.
9.You come up with examples on use of Amsoil, great! I'm sure people on this board alone can come with examples of great stories from other synthetic oils. You must be the only sales person in here. The rest sound like personnal opinions?
...You seem to be the one that goes more on hearsay than personnal experiences. Road Rage & I BOTH said we used Amsoil & don't want to use it AGAIN! I never heard you say you had ANY experience with any usage on your own part. What you say & do doesn't give any credit to what your selling!


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2000 3.2 TL Laguna Green
29% window tint, Clear bra, no nav
225/50/16 Aqua-Flow GTW's on OEM wheels
http://photos.yahoo.com/bc/lrpba300?...l=fld3&.src=ph

Lrpba300

[Quote]...Road Rage and YOU have still not done anything but blow hot air. You can't even back up your statements with anything but a string of cute statements aimed at out-witting us. [Quote/]...
What an Idiot you are. I won't speak for Road Rage, but I have told you numerous times I've seen engines torn apart that showed no significant differences of wear to other synthetics. You have never answered the question if you have. No, you just keep posting stories by others. Take your "stories" $ stick them where the sun NEVER shines. Closed mined?? Yours is brain washed. I NEVER VICIOUSLY ATTACHED AMSOIL, yet you say I did. Cute statements? I have PERSONNAL experience. You don't know the first thing about engines, only how to evade the direct question. I'll send the emails you sent me to Snook to show who's telling the TRUTH here. I'm glad you like Amsoil, I personally DON'T, & on our forum, I'm going to tell people of my PERSONAL experiences, not post stories from other magazines. I use a product that works just as good as yours. Your just to stupid to realize it

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2000 3.2 TL Laguna Green
29% window tint, Clear bra, no nav
225/50/16 Aqua-Flow GTW's on OEM wheels
http://photos.yahoo.com/bc/lrpba300?...l=fld3&.src=ph

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1" FACE="Verdana, Arial">[This message has been edited by Lrpba300 on May 13, 2001 @ ]</font>

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1" FACE="Verdana, Arial">[This message has been edited by Lrpba300 on May 13, 2001 @ ]</font>

SC TL

"Hearsay" is commonly defined as an out of court statement used to prove the truth of the matter asserted. So pretty much everything you've posted is hearsay.

This thread has been pretty entertaining for a while, but now the posts are getting so long that its just tedious. Nevertheless, here are a couple of things I've learned:

1. People that use smaller label oils (Redline, Amsoil) are very defensive about them, whereas people who use big corporate brands (Mobil, Castrol) are much mellower.

2. Even though its more expensive per quart, if you plan on waiting 25,000 miles between oil changes, then Amsoil can save you a few bucks.

3. If you want to try to convince Acura owners that Amsoil is the best oil, don't talk about running over them with your Unimog (directed to Ed Sanders, not Amslink).

You guys have convinced me, I think I'll start using Mobil 1.

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2001 Silver TL w/Navi
Factory Spoiler
Comptech springs
Comptech sways
18" TMW Scuderias
Pirelli P7000 SS 225/40
35% tint

EricL

Boy, this sounds like scary stuff....

I just use Mobil 1, and have noticed that all of the engines that get it AFTER break in have always looked clean inside.

I'm showing my age, but I started using Synthetics (Mobil-1 and Redline) when I could get them, and it realy helped with keeping the inside of the engine looking clean.

So, who knows what's best.

Would it just be ok to use the Amsol, Mobil-1, or Redline (any of the "good" synthetics) and just change frequently (for pease of mind). So -- who cares if the oil companies get rich (they are already doing that via the pump), do we really need to teach them a lesson by not changing often (I didn't say anybody said to)?

I'm just suggesting that the new synthetics are really great, so why not just change them at conservative intervals (as with the rest of the auto. fluids) and be safe.

Penny wise, pound foulish comes to mind...

Be happy with your choice...

(I'm not taking any sides in this...)

roadman

Want does Amsoil mean by their 5w-20 oil is for the “oil change industry” ? Don’t we fall into that category, if not then what target market are they aiming towards. The quotes were a reference to the results that one can achieve by using AMSoil’s 25,000 mile grade oil, Plus the use of specific filters, are there any of these reports referring to the XL7500 grade ? These reports may point to a great filtration system that would have achieved the same results with virtually any oil.

Again let’s try to use information that pertains to the product that we are looked at, 5w-20 oil. It means little that someone got great results used 20w-50 when I am looking for 5w-20. That’s like going to a restaurant and asking the waiter if the steak is great, and the waiter tells you everyone in the place says the fish is outstanding !!

What is the difference in the two types of oil (xl7500 vs High Perf) besides who it is marketed for, what is different in the contents/additives ?

Gomez

I read in Consumer Reports that expensive oil is a panacea of sorts - doesn't do it's job any better for passenger cars.

They did a test of a whole fleet of NYC taxis, and found all oils on the market performed the same. They also found that changing at 3000 vs 7500 made no difference.

Also, if you were to run 25,000 miles on Amsoil 'Snakeoil' X9000 b/t changes, good luck getting top dollar for your car at trade in. Dealers will consider such a long interval abuse, and you might have warranty problems if you needed internal engine work (not likely on a Honda product.)

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'01 White Diamond Pearl 3.2TL
-Wing, tint, wood and Whistler

Gomez

One last thought - a $20 bottle of Slik50 will put a 100,000 warranty on your engine for 20 bucks...

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'01 White Diamond Pearl 3.2TL
-Wing, tint, wood and Whistler

Gomez

I'm not your "friend."

The last Honda dealer I went to with my '97 Accord looks at maintenence records, but maybe that's unusual. I have always looked at records of used cars I buy to see how well they've been maintained, too.

And if you're selling AMSOIL, as I assume you are, your defensive and negative posture is bad for your product.

I never said Slick50 was good - in fact I believe it is 'snakeoil' - but it's a helluva cheap way to get a 100,000 mile warranty on your engine.

Let me guess - you had to buy your AMSOIL liscense to distribute, it was expensive, sales are low, criticism is high, you can't sign up any agents and can't make the payments on your Corvette? Tough, but still no reason to be a d*ck.

Get off our board.

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'01 White Diamond Pearl 3.2TL
-Wing, tint, wood and Whistler

8ball

I've never put anything in my Maxima except Quaker State 10w-40 every 3000-5000 miles (no particular reason for QS, just what I started using and stuck with it). 205,000 miles later, it doesn't burn a drop, still has good compression, and eagerly pulls right up to its 5500 rpm redline (woo-hoo) day after day.

The lesson here? I don't care what anybody says about how long I can go without changing my oil, mine is getting changed at three to five no matter who made it.

btw, it's The Addams Family (with 2 dees).

roadman

Amslink,

You're statement of:

" It is according to the company the same basestocks, they have just toned down the additive package to last less long. The 25,000 mile oils have an additve package that is designed to be effective well past the 25,000 miles. This is why the XL-7500 is less expensive than the other AMSOIL's."

is unclear, what exactly is the difference, do you know ?

For example if the 25k oil has 10 parts of this and 5 parts of that additive, does the 7500 mile oil have only 7 parts of this and 2 parts of that. Does anyone that sells this product, know what the difference is other than it is cheaper and does not go as far ?

From a selling standpoint the 25k oil is only .50 cents more than the 7500 mile oil. Why even bother making this product ? If a consumer used the 25k oil and chose to change it after 7500 mile it would only cost them $2.50 and they would get an oil with "a better additive package". Is there anything that you get for that $2.50, other than the right to throw away an oil that still has 17,500 miles to go on it ?

Lrpba300

Thanks fellow TL, Tl-Sers, I'm glad to read some our your posts seeing the error's of some of the things amslonk keep posting. I asked him many times about tearing down engines or see an engine torn down after different tpyes of oils were used. Never answered. I am glad to see people use different tpyes and be happy w/ their choice. I have no problem w/ Mobil 1, Valvoline, Redline, etc. type synthetics being used. I personally have used amsoil & wasn't conviced it was any better. that's my choice, & amslink couldn't accept that! PERIOD

EricL...Penny wise, pound foulish comes to mind...Be happy with your choice...
LOL. great post

Gomez..thanks for posting what you did. GREAT


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2000 3.2 TL Laguna Green
29% window tint, Clear bra, no nav
225/50/16 Aqua-Flow GTW's on OEM wheels
http://photos.yahoo.com/bc/lrpba300?...l=fld3&.src=ph

Road Rage

My last post on this - it has been enlightening in verifying my opinions of the nature or the companies and people who sell certain lubricant products.

Thanks to all who have had the clear insight to recognize fact from fiction, and circular arguments from analytic statement.

In hindsight:
1) I should probably not have called Amsoil "crap" - I should have called it a third-rate synthetic which makes a good lubricant. I rate it below Redline, Mobil 1 and Valvoline, but side by side with Syntec.
2) We have seen Amsoil supporters swing wildly about its composition, from containing several esters plus PAO's to being pure PAO with an additive package - my analysis based on the MSDS concludes that it is indeed a hydrowax, or that its MSDS is seriously flawed and desperately in need of an overhaul. No Amsoiler has ever successfully countered my contention.
3) Re: the FTC non-synthetic "synthetic" defrauding case - This was not my contention, but something posted in Nutz and Boltz several years ago - Dave Solomon responded to my email that he was once an Amsoil dealer, but after learning about this case and hearing about other Amsoil practices that disturbed him, he got out of the dealer business. Dave stands by it, but indicated he is tired of dealing with Amsoil zealots and just wants them to go away as far as he is concerned
3) Read the Amsoil warranty - I had an attorney read it and he felt it was full of ambiguities that would allow disqualification without much legal recourse to a user, and that the interpretations (explanations) offered by amslink are simply not in the language posted on the Amsoil website. I am an engineer, not an attorney, so I defer to subject matter experts. On the topic of automotive topics, I feel my training and experience make me an SME and I try to post thoughtful analysis based on those proficiencies.
4) Red Line is used by the Acura racing teams - if Amsoil or any other lubricant were the superior product, would they not be used?
5) Additives are carefully balanced products, and any tribologist would agree with me that when it comes to the components of an additive, more is definitely not better. Most of the chemicals and solids in the additive packages are sacrificial - that is, they get used up fighting dirt, boundary friction, the acid byproducts of combustion (sulfuric acid for one), etc. Comparing the MSDS of the 25000 mile Amsoil and the 7500 mile Amsoil (incorrectly stated for the 5w20 by one of the Amsoilers) indicates that in both, the % of additive falls in the 5 - 15% of volume range. The claim that one Amsoil product has "better additives" has not been established - but, I do not believe that one ZDP (anti-wear agent) is any better than another, as they are inert. I would generally say the same for the viscosity improvers, EP agents, etc. And based on the colume %'s, there does not appear to be any indication that there are more of the additives in the 25k Amsoil than the 7.5k.
5) The endless anecdotes are worthless wastes of space - heck, I could probably find people willing to swear that boar mucous makes a good lubricant. RL has the same sort of anecdotes on its websites, and they do not do it for me either.
6) I raced SCCA for many years, and say a lot of RL and other fine lubricants. Not much Amsoil.
7) Last point: I agree with a previous poster that a first-rate mineral oil of today is a fine lubricant, good for 5000 miles in a well maintained car, and capable of providing long life. I only use and recommend synthetics for those that routinely use their engines at high RPM, or are looking for a very long term relationship with their cars.
8) And thanks to those that defended my style of discussion over some of the others - I love this Forum and try to help my web friends with the truth as I see it - if you disagree, fine, let's just try to answer each others points as men of letters and good taste, and stay away from rantings. A good healthy debate is one thing - but a barroom brawl is quite another.

Lrpba300

Your welcome Road Rage. I see they,(moderators?)took out all the amslink garbage. I'm also sorry to all others on this board. I couldn't hold my tongue as civil as Road Rage. I just had to show this guy for what he was. He,(amslink) flat out LIED to me in an email. It showed me he was the one w/ a problem. Enough said about him. As I also said, RR has my vote for most informed about oils



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2000 3.2 TL Laguna Green
29% window tint, Clear bra, no nav
225/50/16 Aqua-Flow GTW's on OEM wheels
http://photos.yahoo.com/bc/lrpba300?...l=fld3&.src=ph

Guest

Sir: Please go to FTC@FedGov.com and point out where Amsoil has committed fraud against the gonvernment or any one else and please post the information here on the board.

Guest

Gomez. I hope you will go to the FTC@fedgov.com before you buy the $20 bottle of "Slick 50" which is nothing more than a quart of Quaker State Motor oil (Quaker State owns Petrolon Corp which makes Slick 50). If you will read thru the FTC cpmplaints and their resolutions you will find there has been plenty of action against Quaker State. There has NOT BEEN ANY ACTION AGAINST EITHER AMSOIL or REDLINE.

Bcoolams
Amsoil Dealer

Mr Hyde

Well as this post is basically contributing anything to any of our members and is nothing but people taking pot shots at each other, it will now be closed

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Just call me..................Mr Hyde

TL Type-S Moderator
02 Aegean Blue TL Type-S with Navi
Accord Forum Moderator/Honda-Acura.net
96 Sherwood Green Accord EX