1000bpm

Check out this thread from BMWplanet.com :
http://www.bmwplanet.com/messageview...&threadid=1236

bryce11

of course he is BIAS on his opinion towards the bimmer, if you look at his title it say's "RACE MODERATOR", you would prefer what the bmw has to offer. The question that should be ask to this guy is:
1. do you race you car everyday your on the street?
2. do you like to drive a stickshift on a bumper to bumper traffic?..............

1000bpm

bryce11

I included the link because once in a while its entertaining to see what other forums are saying about the TL. An outsider's view so to speak.

You obviously haven't read the entire thread though, otherwise you would have noticed the positive comments in the subsequent posts.

chiawei

As TL and BMW owner, IMHO is that TL is a great value, but nothing more.

My TL has suffered many (although minor) workmanship defect. The chassis is weak. Steering is vague. TL is a nice car for the money.

But it is just not a bimmer. My 530i delivers better mileage, handles way better, and is just an overall much superior package.

Granted my 530i is way more than TL. But Bimmers are just sweet.

FlyingPig

What can I say, the 5 series are no TL.
They are extremely ugly. The 3 series is definitely no TL either. The seden is very tiny and ugly, and it's bumpy as well (do not confuse that with handling) If I can settle for a small car with 2 door, I wouldn't mind E46 coupe.
The M3 is beautiful.

Steveb

I test drove a 528 and was not at all impressed. I thought the interior was very bland. The center console was very ugly. Handling was not good. Granted it didn't have the sports package but it's still a $40K plus Bimmer! Needles to say, after I test drove the Bimmer I was even more impressed with the value of my TL-S. I think your return on your dollar spent decreases considerably after you pass the $30,000 mark when buying a new car.

Guest

BMW has never ever been considered a reliable car. Nice cars. I have owned more then my share. Reliable they are not. An Acura and especially a Lexus is of much higher grade then ANY Bimmer. That is a fact. Go to JD Powers and Consumer Reports for more on this. THe 530. Slow and overweight. It hase considerable body roll,same with the 540, abiet a little less. The interior is without question a mixture of Radio Shack buttons and poorly placed controls. Now the drivetrains are really nice. The 6 in very smooth though underpowered quit a bit. The 540 8 is not as refined as the Lexus (not even close actually) and im sure the upcoming Acura V8. Snob appeal- Please. Acura is reknown for quality and reliable products. BMW is not. Everyone owns a damn 3 series nowadays. We all see 15-20 a day. 99% Leases. How many Tl-S's, GS's, and so forth do you see? WHen I think Bimmer ,the first impression is Chevy. Many of my friends think the same. Not blasting the Bimmers. If they changed the interior drastically, made it much more reliable (never happen of a German car), I may consider another one. Till then Acura ,Infiniti, Lexus all the way.

Soe previous cars.

2 3 series
1 5 series
2 SC400's
1 SC300
2 vett's
2 Audis
7 VW's
2 Nissans
1 Integra
1 Honda
1 928
3 944 (1 a turbo)
2 924's
1 911


and more damn throw away domestics then I care to remember.

need more on Bimmer quality,click the links below.
http://www.bmwlemon.com/
http://www.mercedesproblems.com/
http://www.amarshall.com/bmw/
http://www.ladman.com/badbimmer/

how manuy exist for Acura and Lexus. None that im aware of.

1000bpm

I agree ..... you definitely get less for each $ you spend over $30 k, but there are some really nice cars out there in the the $35k to $40k range!! And for $10 k more you can get a ....... and it goes on .

chiawei

Evyerbody is entitled to their opinion.

I just had more problem with the Acura thus far. My bimmer is still young and I do expect that after a year or two, my bimmer would be in the pit.

But during the trouble free time, the bimmer is simply more fun to drive and push around.

I think BMW owners for majority are prepared to suffer the consequence. Plus the bimmer is probably not the only car they have either.

I have other car to back me up when I needed. Owning and driving a BMW is like using drug. It gives you pleasure but in the mean time it kills you by giving you problems.


There is always a trade off that you take. However, my TL does not provide me with pleasure in driving it while continous to give me trouble.

chiawei

To Nonpar.

Let me make this clear. 530i is not as slow as the regular TL.

2nd. Sorry, if you have own a lexus lately like I do currently. Please look at the control and amount of buttons on the RX300's dash. Then tell me which one is simpler. BMW has cleaned up a lot of your so called buttons. My dash with navi is clean and not crowded with buttons as you claim to be.

3. Honda does on average makes more reliable cars than BMW. There is no doubt. But there are still honda/acura owner out there that has suffered through poor quality.

I had 3 honda/Acura. Only one of them is really trouble free. 92 Leaf green Accord LX. But guess what, I was involved in a front end accident, the SRS never deployed. My 94 Accord EX (made in Japan), has suffered through a tons of trouble, including 2 blown AC compressor, sunroof track was replaced. My TL has suffered from poor wormanship. After 20K the TL is full of rattles. I just recently replaced the exhaust under warranty because it it leaking.

Like i said everyone is entitled to have their opinions. But after 3k miles, my 530i so far has been trouble free, while at 3K in the TL, i have already replaced the front windshield plastic trim, door trim, seats were loose.

So next time before posting so called perfect data, please note that there are people out there that does have problem with Honda/Acura.

Guest

Sorry the 530 is very slow. At least to me. Why compare it a stock TL when it cost so much more. Compare it to the TL-S. As far as Hondas having problems. Sure they do. Every car make does. It's that BMW has had MUCH MUCH more then others. Not a Chevy, but damn close to it. Send your comments to JD Powerd and Consumer Reports. Maybe they will rate the Bimmer as reliable aferwards because yours is treating you well. NOT. I do wish you the best of luck with your car, you will need it, and I hope you TL gives you better luck than it has. I never wish a car problem on anyone. But as a WHOLE, BMW's are not reliable. As for the RX300 controls, please, they are far more superior to your Bimmer Radio Shack controls. Of course this is just opinion. You like those really ity bity tiny square Atari buttons. I do not. I prefer quality.

chiawei

BTW, have you looked at latest consumer report.

The latest report on 528i shows that nearly al category was rateed either excellent or above average. The only area that scored an average was electrical system.

I will post a picture of RX300 center dash as well as those of 530i and then you can decide which one is worse.



------------------
1998-Sienna
2000-Laguna Green TL
2001-Burnished Gold RX300
2001-BrilliantSilver C320
2001-Titanium Silver 530i

Guest

Oh by the way, 0-60 on your car is only 6.9 at best. More like 7.1 on average. Not very stellar. But to compliment the Bimmers, they are certainly good looking cars. The TL-S, is pretty bland. The 3,5, and especially the new 6 series look awesome. Now if I could get a 396 hp m5 body with the smoothness of a Lexus V8 , and better interior with controls bigger then a fire fly and logically placed+reliability...That would be a dream car for me. Maybe Toyota should buy BMW. Any others have dream combos.

thejavagod

I like driving BMWs, they are very fun to drive...however I chose the Acura from a more practical point of view, far superior reliability and the **untouched** price/performance/value quotient.

My friend just bought a brand new 540i and already is having problems with the relay that controls the power locks...it is in the shop! Another friends 2000 330ci is always in the shop on and off due to electrical problems! Do you call that luxury? - being stranded at the side of the road in a storm perhaps?

In the 3 years I had my previous car - a Honda Accord, I've opened the hood twice - and that was to show off the V6 to someone :-) Never took it to the dealer for anything other than the routine service. Now thats the kind of dependability that I would pay my extra $$$ for.

And its not like the Type S handles like a dog...its very fun to drive and quite close to the 330i...

with the beemer I get performance and handling but with the Acura I pay MUCH less and get great performance, great handling, comfort, reliability, value - so why would I ever buy a BMW?

Guest

Although I happen to own a 528 myself, I happen to agree that the Acura's, Nissans and Hondas make a superior car in terms of reliability. I also happen to think my Acura TL-S is more fun to drive...sorry! My 528 is slow and the handling is simply not as good as my TL-S. But BMW's are beautifully styled on the outside and the body is very sturdy...although i've not been too impressed with the interior styling...very bland. I've had minor, irritating problems with my Bimmer that I NEVER had with my prior 1989 Nissan Stanza, which was pretty much bulletproof.

------------------
2002 TL-S Nighthawk Black/Parchment w/ Navi

RAdams

You can go back and forth forever on this topic. The fact is that personal preference cannot be quantified. Even though the TL represents an untouchable value, there are always going to be people who prefer something else.

Case in point: My co-worker sold his 1998 Accord EX V6 to his parents when the company agreed to leased him a 1999 528i. Back in September when I started working here, we were talking cars and he mentioned a few problems he'd had with the car. One turned out to be rod knock. The car was in the shop for 4 weeks while the engine was replaced. Some time later, it began exhibiting transmission problems. Another 19 days in the shop while the transmission was replaced. It's now got about 22,000 miles on it.

As he was telling me this story, I couldn't stop thinking that he made a mistake getting rid of the Accord. He swears that he doesn't regret it -- that the BMW is so fun to drive that the problems he's had with it are excuseable.

Now, I can't even fathom this. My family and I have owned a dozen or more Honda/Acura products and have never experienced anything that even approaches the kinds of failures he's experienced. I wouldn't tolerate any of that crap. But he did. I don't know if the story will change now that he's only a consultant to us and we'll no longer be paying his $730/month lease payment, but he still swears by his BMW. It doesn't make any sense to me, but I sure as hell don't lose sleep over it.

People are different. Opinions vary. Tastes vary. It's always going to be that way.

------------------
2000 WDP 3.2TL non-NAV
AEM CAI w/bypass, Comptech header

TL-SorMaxima

For those BMW owners, maybe some people just like driving a new dealership loaner car every month or so........

Sorry - couldn't resist!

------------------
2002 TL Type S
Nighthawk Black Pearl
Black interior

FlyingPig

That seems pretty clear. Which part don't you understand? I don't like 5 series and I don't like 3 series seden. However, I do like 3 series coupe. That's as far as the looks goes.
On top of that, I think 3 series has better handling than base TL only because it's smaller. It's very small, bumpy and uncomfortable. As for 5 series, I can not get over the ugly factor. I don't want one on my driveway even if it's free. (unless I can sell it) But of course, styling is a very personal opinion.
If you are talking about brands in general (there is really no point). Acura is my 4th favorite brand. BMW is 2nd from last.
However, I'm not loyal to any brand, and whether I like the brand or not doesn't play a huge part in picking a car.

chiawei

You guys are all right. BMW is just not that reliable.

But there are people like just simply accept this a way of life. A lot of bimmer owner i know has several cars at home. In fact, one guy i know even drive around in a early 90 toyota pickup.

For me, I only drive the 530i on weekends. My daily driver is the sienna. BMW to me is for a pleasure cruise, fun, and just an driving experience that is hard to replace.

Die hard bimmer fan stood by BMW is simply that the car is so addictive. BTW, german car are much more easier to take apart and mess around with. A lot of Bimmer owner that i know are hard core enthusiast that does a lot of work on their cars.

BMW is targeted to specific group of customers, which is different from other brand.

I used to think BMW is overpriced piece of crap. But after owning one, I begin to understand why I would never be able to go back to a japanese car even though BMW is such a pain to own.

Like i said before, BMW is like drug addiction. You can't get rid of it.

FlyingPig

BMW might have good overpriced cars in general, but there are plenty of more addictive german or japanese cars out there.
Perhaps you haven't tried enough cars or maybe you already buy into BMW loyalty.
Either way, TL-S isn't a very addictive car.
When my wife offered to let me drive her car for a week, I gladly took it.
In my opinion, it is far better than any 3 series except for M3 and any 5 series except for 540 and M5. Since I do not care for 5 series styling, M3 is the only car I would consider. Since M3 is too small, I cancelled my M3 to pick up TL-S. The money I saved goes toward my modena fund. I might just see the 360 spider a little sooner.
That, of course, is still wishful thinking.
Even if I have enough money next year, I might be forced to pick up a bigger family car.

Guest

I would have to disagree (what a surprise) on the fact that a BMW is a "specialty" car. Now a Z8 is a specialty car. All other BMW's are just 2 and 4 doors cars not to be compared in even the most remote way to a Porsche, Viper, NSX, and so forth. The cars are supposed to daily drivers. Period. Even the new M3 is just a 4 door. A nice 4 door at that. They should hold up as daily drivers. Now I could understand if a person had a job where he drove 1000 miles a week like I do, and would rather put the miles in a Dune Buggy or small pickup instead of the "great one" parked in the garage. But damn, I still end up driving the "real car" everyday. That is why I bought it to begin with. Now a Z06,Porsche, Viper,NSX,Z8, or something.....Now that I would save for those weekends. It would give me something to look forward to on loooong Monday-Fridays's. He He.

91M5

Although BMW is not as high as Lexus in J.D. Power, it did come in in the top 5. So it is generally not the nightmare everyone says it is. Everyone has a story for any car. Like my friends ES300 that lost its tranny at 50k.

I personally don't know why anyone would buy a brand new car. All brands seem to have hiccups these days. Too many electronics?

I know a guy that just bought a pristine '91 M5 with 44k miles on it for $25k. Another one just bought a '93 with 28k miles for low $30k's. I can't bring myself to buy a new car when I could get something like that for the price of a V6 Accord. I just love cars too much to bore myself to tears. There are so many cool used cars to buy before I get something new and boring (911's, M6's, E30 M3's). Although I would buy something boring for my wife. :-)

The TL-S is obviously the right car for many people. A 530i may be the right car for others (as a new Dad the safety of a German chassis is worth A LOT of money to me).

You will have small problems but BMW's are rather durable and will go 200k (as I know Hondas do also) with proper care and maintenance. Like the post said above, for some they will not drive another car despite their idiosycrancies. Some people have a hard time accepting that. For those people, cars are just transportation.

This is a post today from a BMW email list full of real enthusiasts (admittedly a bit corny buy I have been there):


This past weekend I was re-acquainted with the roots of my BMW love affair.
Returning from an evening out with friends, all my windows were open and the music was off. The only sounds were from the throaty hum of the tailpipes.

My 2.8i M20 was purring like a kitten, and, in the cool night air of something past midnight, all was right with the world. You've been there, we all have. The moment when all your long nights in the garage and
underestimated project budgets come together and you're in that special place. The place where everything comes together so perfectly, so naturally, that nothing can stop it. Or can it?

Cresting a hill enjoying the beautiful night and harmonious engine note I was hit with a shocking sight. On the other side of the road, pulled over toward the shoulder, sat an E30 M3 hazards burning bright. With a
quick u-turn I was at its side offering assistance. It seems the driver encountered an object in his path that blew out the right front tire. Working together we had the car ready for the trip home in no time.
While we checked the car for injuries I found out that not only is this fellow an
enthusiast and generally cool guy but he's also the president of the local
chapter[BMWCCA]. After chatting briefly we went our seperate ways with plans to meet up and get to know one another at the next chapter meeting. I continued on enjoying that beautiful magical place all the way home; as did he.

So you're wondering "What's the moral of this magnificent story?", "How does
this apply to me?". I dunno. It's good to get back to basics sometimes.
Just get in your car, open the windows so you can listen to the sounds, and
drive. Don't think about tomorrow or yesterday or work or kids. Think
about that little side road you just passed and how it might lead to a never-before-seen curvy road heading out into the ountryside...

...The little road that leads to that magical place where everything
comes together so perfectly and so naturally.

Steve
-------------

That is how many BMW drivers feel about driving and their Bimmers.



------------------
91 M5
Dinan stuff
18" BBS RC's
340hp

Guest

I'm selling a 98 M3 Sedan :-)... I loved driving the car, but after owning it for three years, I've decided to switch to the Acura TL-S. Granted, the M3 is a BLAST to drive.... as long as you're not in the car for more than 2 hours. Also, it might as well be a 2 seater, cause the back seats are worthless for carrying around extra adults. In addition, I questioned the reliability.. I had both electric mirrors go out, the front turning light fell off, the a/c compressor went bad at 20k, it leaked oil, and the brakes don't last (but work great..). I'm at the point to where the factory warranty is about to expire, and just dished out $400 (parts only) for brake pads, plugs, air filter, oil and oil filter. I had a 1990 Legend LS Coupe before the BMW and put 150k on it without ANY problems except routine maintenance. The parts were reasonable... I will miss the BMW, just because of the fun factor. But, the TL-S is sporting enough (especially after you trick it out), more comfortable, and better value. I'm still having second thoughts.... but not for long.

PeterUbers

iTrader: (1)

Who here enjoy driving just "to drive.." And .. can't someone enjoy their car, irrespective of its pros/cons compared w/ other competing models .. and isn't that the "Ultimate Driving Machine.." .. the car that you love to drive?

sboje

noparchment,

The 530i with manual and sport package will easily outhandle a TLS. The non-sport wasn't meant to be a cornering maniac, but it will still have much more neutral handling than ANY TL (but I agree the body roll is excessive). Acceleration is nearly the same, but for regular driving the low end torque of the 530 is better. I thought the 530 with steptronic felt powerful too, but I don't think it has the same surge of power the TL-S does at upper revs.

I think it is funny how people have such radically different opinions on the luxuriousness of different interiors. I think the bimmer's are really nice, and the TLs are kinda cheap looking (although much better than the accord). It is mostly the appearence of the dash material I don't like in the TL. I used to hate the interiors of Lexus', but now they've kinda grown on me. I guess a lot of it depends on your history and what you are used to seeing. Sometimes things give the illusion of quality when they are in fact crappy. I don't think anyone could say the TLs are truly low quality. All these cars use some sort of vinyl or plastic, and its funny how just a different texture or color can make it look really nice or cheap. The one thing that is disapointing about the TL-S is the faux wood... it just isn't convincing. Especially the black wood/marble... it just looks plain cheap.. like Hyundai cheap to me. My only major complaint on interior styling.

Finally, it is sad to see people so defensive about their cars. Some cars truly suck. That can't be said of either the TLs or the BMWs. They are different cars at (mostly) different prices.

-Scott

-Scott

Guest

Compared to Honda/Acura and other Japanese cars, it's true that the BMW is not as reliable. But to say they're "unreliable" is false-- look at the reliability numbers on American cars and BMW will look like a dream in comparison! Reliability is relative.

lonny

What a lot of people fail to realize is that with some minor mods to the susp and different tires, the TLS will handle just as good as, if not better than the much higher priced and trouble-prone Bummers. About the only cars that can out-handle modded TLS is the Audi Quattros. Of all the cars I tested, NOTHING out-handled the Audi! If only the S4 were larger!

chiawei

i can't believe that how long this thread has now dragged on.

I did drove the TLS, but the chassis is way too soft. It's not only a suspension problem as i can actually feel the chassis flexing during hard cornering. This is something that you can't easily fixed.

Plus, in both TL and TLS, i do not feel that the power delivery is that smooth and as instaneous as '01 5 series. since 5 series switched to throttle by wire, it feels very spirited.

I do agree on that regular 530i is way too soft and vague. It was not a difficult choice for me to make when deciding between sport and non sport. The difference was day and night.

Everybody has different taste and opinions. At this time after almost 2 month of BMW ownership, I can honestly say that it would take a miracle for me to go back to Japanese car.

acuraguynj

What are you trying to say? Can't tell if you are not liking the BMW or TL in your response. You don't like the BMW? But you love the M3, all confused there.

acuraguynj

I have to agree the 530 is a sweet car. Don't get me wrong I enjoy my TL, but the 530i is a step up on the TL. Drive the 530i and you will know what I mean, it makes you want to own one in a bad way.

And if it's name brand and luxury you want, the BMW name does go a long way (whether people like to admit that or not).

DJ Iceman

Everyone has opinions, and that's what makes the free market economy work. Here's mine: I own a '98 Acura 3.0CL and a 2000 BMW M Roadster (that replaced a '97 Integra GS-R). The Bimmer is fun and performs like you wouldn't believe. But I will likely never buy another BMW. Acura's build quality is FAR superior, in cars that cost tens of thousands of dollars less. I am not exaggerating when I say I have to take the BMW to have something fixed at least once a month. I have had much better luck with Acura salespeople and service departments, and personally I like the Japanese styling better than the German. The only thing Acura lacks is "snob appeal", but after falling for that once with my Bimmer, I won't make the same mistake again. The TL-S is my next car; I'm not even considering the 5-series. Or maybe it's time to give the Lexus GS430 a try...

------------------
Why doesn't everybody make cars as well as Acura?

Guest

I agree with the above post in stating that it is sometimes difficult to purchase a new car when for the same money one could get a higher grade vehicle. A M3 (20's),GS400 (low 30's),97 and up 540's (mid to high 20's). Good caliber cars for same the price as a loaded Accord. Accords being great cars also.But then that special kind of feeling of a NEW car that has never been owned by another is something unique. Too many good cars, not enough funds.

91M5

This is a rather rational and informative thread when people don't resort to name calling. It is a nice change.

As far as a modded TL outhandling BMW's. I don't disagree that a person could drive those cars as fast as a BMW but they will still not have 50/50 weight distribution (either do Audis). Quattro will pull you around a corner even if you are way off line -- that isn't really good handling (of course, this is a subjective measure).

When you take a BMW on a roadcourse the little bit of extra work they put in the chassis becomes very noticeable. They are incredibly balanced, forgiving, and fun all at the same time. If you can drive, the car will never bite you and you can control understeer and oversteer with the brakes and throttle. They respond even better to mods, as do Audis, because the chassis is so much stiffer than a Japanese car.

FWD is just not the same. I was following a GTI Cup racecar on Thunderhill and the guy was doing all sorts of crazy stuff to get the car to corner. I think he was left foot braking to bring the back end out (looked like a ton of fun). I later spoke to him and learned they run 50-60lbs of pressure in their rear tires COLD so the back end will come around. There are a lot of great Japanese cars I would consider for track cars if they were not fwd (Type R). Hopefully some of the new ones coming will change that.

PeterUbers

iTrader: (1)

Hey 91M5:

What kind of engine/tranny is in your M5 --> what's the output and performance numbers, i'm just curious.

THanx

Pete

acuraguynj

Chia said that the BMW is like a drug, addicted to it. I have driven in the 530i (NON sport) and I am addicted too!

Maybe it's the styling, the name, etc, but the BMW just seems better than my TL (only not better in price).

Comparison - just like dating a supermodel, no matter what she does bad, she still looks so good, your still are all googly over her :-) PERFECT EXAMPLE.

FlyingPig

After driving my wife's car for 4 days, this morning I was getting car sick in my TLS boat. I think Comptech springs are next.
But again, even the E46 M3 feels like a boat after driving her car.

1000bpm

I don’t think there’s any doubt that both Acura & BMW make great cars. BMW has been around a lot longer and over the decades has built an enviable following of driving enthusiasts. Don’t forget that BMW virtually invented the sports sedan category 25 years ago. They’ve earned their reputation so give credit where its due. Acuras get 90% of the way there at a much lower price with better reliability to boot. With the TLS Acura has done a great job of closing that gap. That’s the reason I chose the TLS over the 330I, and the fact that the TLS is a more practical car. As far as the bang for the buck goes, Acura is far ahead of the pack .... no competition there. Acura gets my nod over BMW for reliability as well, I’ve heard too many horror stories firsthand from BMW owners (in all fairness I also have friends who have owned their BMW’s for years without running into any major problems). Some owners may be willing to endure those extra trips to the dealer but that’s not something I ever want to go through.

I’m reminded of my buddy who has been into high-end audio for the last 15 years. He bought a pair of $10,000 monoblock tube amplifiers 3 years ago and had to replace his tubes thrice since he bought them. Not a cheap exercise when you consider they cost $400 a pop. When I asked him why he didn’t go solid state instead of putting up with the hassle of tubes his response was that tubes provided that magic in the listening experience that solid state would never be able to deliver. This not an analogy, just an example to show that different people get different utility from the same object. Those who dig “German handling” will find it hard to settle for the floaty overboosted feel of say .... a Lexus.

To each his own I guess

Steveb

I think you have to be on drugs to figure out the AC controls. What were they thinking? I think the interior looks outdated. The center console is down right ugly. Not much room in the back.(The back passengers can't even place their feet under the front seats!) I'm not anti BMW. I love the 3 series!

paul_huryk

I have to add a little bashing on BMW's here, just gotta vent.

I don't understand the reason why owners of a certain type of car have to put down other cars, just becuase they have the "idea" that their vehicle is better. But what really gets me is the fact that drivers of the more expensive cars (BMW and Audi for example) believe everything they hear and make it part of their opinion (sounding like a magazine review).

You hear (for example) that this car handles better than that one because of x reason. Now if the person mentioned stiffer springs or larger wheels and tores, it would be believable, but 50/50 weight distribution, come on! The best handling cars do not neccessarily have 50/50 weight distribution, although Porsche and BMW typically do and handle well. That must mean cars like Corvettes and Supras hadle like kaka becacuse they do not have 50/50 weight distribution, not at all true.

Now, getting to modified suspension cars, the disparity becomes even worse: I would rather have a car like a modified Vette or Supra to go around a road race course than an M3 or S4, why? Becuase they have so damn many advantages that the BMW and Audi just fade in the mirror.

Let's not even get on the subject of motors, as the magazines love mid size (3-4 liter) 6 and 8 cylinder motors, saying how great they are. Sure, they make a lot of power up high, but not that much low-end torque (I'm talking low like 3000rpm), so you have to rev the pee out of them. Meanwhile, the Corvette or Viper (or whatever larger displacement car) has all the torque in the world and they call them "ancient". Doesn't make sense to me when torque is the main ingredient of horsepower (the other is RPM). Hell, the TL (and TL-S) displace 3.2 liters, exactly the same as the new M3, and they are equally efficient (counting for rpm), so the Germans haven't done anything that Honda hasn't already.

A old girlfriend had a '98 M3, which I got to drive quite a bit. She didn't buy it because it was an M3, she bought it because she liked the look. I noticed one thing, it felt really secure on the road (handling-wise), but the limits were nowhere as high as others brag they are. A few times I went from the M3 to my IROC and the limit difference was minimal (the IROC felt less confident, but still did the deed) between cars. When I went from the M3 to my Camaro it was likw night and day, the only thing the M3 did better was the ride, and it was a tiny improvement. The M3 to Camaro comparison os like comparing a minivan to a TL-S, absolutely no contest. I'm not telling you how great the Camaro is, its not, but it has 55/45 distribution and rips the BMW a new butt hole. Hell, I even raced a Dinan M3 (supercharged) on the GSP a few years ago, pulled on him in the corners, straights, everywhere, turned out to be a magazine test car too.

Where does this put the TL-S? Well, since I won't be picking up mine for 3 weeks, I can't exactly say yet. But what I can say is for the $31,710 price (if you pay less, even better), you can't go wrong. It matches the 330 although it is heavier, front drive, and an auto in the acceleration dept. The brakes are damn close. The handling is not bad, although I'm sure that a fully modified TL-S suspension is a match for the new M3, ditto for the S6.

Just had to vent my opinion.

Oh yeah, if I was going to spend $50,000 for a fast car, BMW wouldn't be my first stop. It would be to the Chevy dealer to buy a new SS Camaro and have an extra $20,000 to spend on parts. $20,000 invested in that car will be a lot faster then any German import could ever be (That means the 911 turbo too!).

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Paul's Home Page

chiawei

I doubt that you have seen the new 5 with 7' navi screen.

The A/C and radio control on the 5 series is very to use. Far better than the stupid lexus RX300.

But TL is in fact easier, but the spacing between button is a bit far.

By the way, the letters on the TL radio button has already begun to wear off.